The Starks

[kissdbyfire]

9 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I disagree. He wanted power, he wanted to rule. Theon was pure ambition. Outside of Robb I don't think he particularly liked any of the Starks.

Theon disagrees. 

ADwD, The Turncloak

“There are ghosts in Winterfell. And I am one of them.
They walked on. Barbrey Dustin’s face seemed to harden with every step. She likes this place no more than I do. Theon heard himself say, “My lady, why do you hate the Starks?”
She studied him. “For the same reason you love them.”
Theon stumbled. “Love them? I never … I took this castle from them, my lady. I had … had Bran and Rickon put to death, mounted their heads on spikes, I …”
“… rode south with Robb Stark, fought beside him at the Whispering Wood and Riverrun, returned to the Iron Islands as his envoy to treat with your own father. Barrowton sent men with the Young Wolf as well. I gave him as few men as I dared, but I knew that I must needs give him some or risk the wroth of Winterfell. So I had my own eyes and ears in that host. They kept me well informed. I know who you are. I know what you are. Now answer my question. Why do you love the Starks?”
“I …” Theon put a gloved hand against a pillar. “… I wanted to be one of them …”
“And never could. We have more in common than you know, my lord. But come.”

 

[Nagini's Neville]

On 27. Januar 2020 at 4:17 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Mirri Maaz Duur earned her fate & yes it was a terrible one, but not undeserved. 

I disagree she killed the man, who enslaved and murdered and raped her people. It was Drogo, who started it all. She was fighting back. You can't blame an abused, raped slave, who has had everything taken away from her for fighting back. It was incredibly naive from Dany to trust her and shows her lack of empathy for the extent of Miri's suffering and horrible situation. Which is understandable given, that Dany is only 14. I even understand Dany's reaction to a point, she is still a child, naive, grieving and has to face existential threats now, that her husband is not there anymore to protect her. For someone, who has suffered so much abuse all their lives without any control, this is absolutely terrifying. But that is still doesn't mean, that Miri deserved, what she got. The "crime" she committed is just a small drop in comparison to the ocean of crimes, that the Dothraki committed, who started first. Miri was abused, traumatized, not free at all even in Dany's ownership, she is still a slave and she was fighting back. Dany shouldn't have expected any different, that she did shows, that she is still a child.

[Hugorfonics]

37 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I disagree. 

I mean he said so. Plus there was the whole wanting to marry Sansa thing

37 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

He wanted power

Totally. Which is to be expected from a child hostage. He had no taste of freedom, no power over his own life, let alone others.

37 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

, he wanted to rule.

Perhaps he thought he wanted to rule, like Robert. When in actuality all they wanted was the fame thats associated with being the boss. 

Unlike Robb or Dany who want to rule, in part, to do justice

37 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Theon was pure ambition.

He was. Such a contrast to Reek who was too frightened to attempt suicide

37 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Outside of Robb I don't think he particularly liked any of the Starks.

Outside of Ned (and Jon) I dont think he particularly disliked any of the Starks

[sweetsunray]

On 1/27/2020 at 4:17 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The Lamb people would have suffered that fate at the hands of the Dothraki regardless of any decisions Daenerys makes, that's kinda what the Dothraki do.

True, but it was Drogo's khalasar who ended up raping, murdering and enslaving them to be sold as child prostitutes, and because Dany had pressed Drogo on their son having a right to the Iron Throne. The scenes in the Lhazareen town is one of the most direct, violently graphic chapter in all of the books. In fact, I think it's one of the most graphic chapters that George has written during his entire career. And that wasn't by accident imo. Just reread it by itself and without considering Dany as protagonist. It makes your stomach churn.

That another khalasar would have done the same thing does not wash away Dany's contribution to it, nor does her later effort to assuage her guilt by claiming rape victims to be her personal slaves.

The good doesn't right the wrong, and the wrong doesn't lessen the good.

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

15 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I disagree she killed the man, who enslaved and murdered and raped her people. It was Drogo, who started it all. She was fighting back. You can't blame an abused, raped slave, who has had everything taken away from her for fighting back. It was incredibly naive from Dany to trust her and shows her lack of empathy for the extent of Miri's suffering and horrible situation. Which is understandable given, that Dany is only 14. I even understand Dany's reaction to a point, she is still a child, naive, grieving and has to face existential threats now, that her husband is not there anymore to protect her. For someone, who has suffered so much abuse all their lives without any control, this is absolutely terrifying. But that is still doesn't mean, that Miri deserved, what she got. The "crime" she committed is just a small drop in comparison to the ocean of crimes, that the Dothraki committed, who started first. Miri was abused, traumatized, not free at all even in Dany's ownership, she is still a slave and she was fighting back. Dany shouldn't have expected any different, that she did shows, that she is still a child.

Yeah, I see where you are coming from my issue with Mirri is that she didn't take it out on the Dothraki, she took it out on Daenerys. And while it was naive of Dany to trust her, she did trust her & Dany was the only person in that entire horde that showed her kindness. I totally get her anger at the Dothraki & understand her wanting to kill Khal Drogo but that's not a very good way to pay Dany for her kindness. She used the position Dany gave her against her & in the end took everything Dany loved. 

Maybe she didn't deserve to be burned alive but I do think she earned her fate. I think Dany reacting to what Mirri did, the way she did, isn't so different from Mirri killing Khal Drogo for what he did & if she had only harmed the Dothraki or hadn't tricked Dany to be able to kill Drogo I would totally understand where she was coming from. 

As it stands Dany would have been better off to allow the khalasar to continue to rape Mirri at their whim, abuse her, & then discard her in whatever fashion they wished. As bad as it was for Mirri prior to Dany stopping them, it could have been worse. 

[sweetsunray]

As for MMD, the sole thing she's certain to be guilty of is saying mean things to Dany. Nobody deserves to burn alive for saying mean vindictive stuff.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

True, but it was Drogo's khalasar who ended up raping, murdering and enslaving them to be sold as child prostitutes, and because Dany had pressed Drogo on their son having a right to the Iron Throne. The scenes in the Lhazareen town is one of the most direct, violently graphic chapter in all of the books. In fact, I think it's one of the most graphic chapters that George has written during his entire career. And that wasn't by accident imo. Just reread it by itself and without considering Dany as protagonist. It makes your stomach churn.

Yeah it was absolutely violent but I'm a firm believer that you are not responsible for the actions of someone else, only your own actions. Daenerys didn't participate in the violence & did what she could to stop it. She wasn't really in a position to be able to change the Dothraki way of life. 

She did push for Drogo to help get her son on the IT but she didn't request he do that by raping & pillaging the Lamb people. 

I know Dany is no saint but I don't think this can be laid at her feet. 

6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

That another khalasar would have done the same thing does not wash away Dany's contribution to it, nor does her later effort to assuage her guilt by claiming rape victims to be her personal slaves

But she didn't really contribute to it. 

I personally think it's better to claim the rape victims as slaves to try to protect them than it is to do nothing at all for them. It doesn't change what happened to them but it is a small measure of kindness, although as large as Dany could give. 

Daenerys was genuinely disturbed by the raping (as most would be) and wanted to stop it. She did what she could. I don't think it was out of guilt. 

8 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

The good doesn't right the wrong, and the wrong doesn't lessen the good

I agree. Take the fingers for smuggling, name him Lord for saving the day. 

Considering Dany didn't have much choice about the position she was in, she could really only get tough or die. She chose to survive the best way she knew how. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

7 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

As for MMD, the sole thing she's certain to be guilty of is saying mean things to Dany. Nobody deserves to burn alive for saying mean vindictive stuff.

See this is sticky IMO. If MMD killed Drogo & Rhaego on purpose (I really don't think she did but she takes responsibility for it) then Dany had just as much reason to kill her as Mirri did to kill Drogo right? 

[Nagini's Neville]

On 27. Januar 2020 at 4:17 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

First and foremost she didn't try to persuade Drogo until after Viserys died so I don't think it's so much about her wanting power as it is feeling it's her right & duty - similar to Stannis. Her son wasn't prophesied to be a "future dark lord" he was to be the stallion that mounted the world - This can be seen as someone who will unite all the peoples of the world, and not necessarily a bad thing.

Quote

 

“Drogo says the stallion who mounts the world will have all the lands of the earth to rule"

 

That just doesn't sound to peaceful to me. When someone is supposed to rule all (people, lands). That's just never a good sign.

Even worse the way to get there:

Quote

“And to Rhaego son of Drogo, the stallion who will mount the world, to him I also pledge a gift. To him I will give this iron chair his mother’s father sat in. I will give him Seven Kingdoms. I, Drogo, khal, will do this thing.” His voice rose, and he lifted his fist to the sky. “I will take my khalasar west to where the world ends, and ride the wooden horses across the black salt water as no khal has done before. I will kill the men in the iron suits and tear down their stone houses. I will rape their women, take their children as slaves, and bring their broken gods back to Vaes Dothrak to bow down beneath the Mother of Mountains. This I vow, I, Drogo son of Bharbo. This I swear before the Mother of Mountains, as the stars look down in witness.”

Dany knows the way of the Dothraki. That she wants to inflict that on the population, who are supposed to be her people and ultimately her son's people is no small thing IMO. And given her son will be a Dothraki Khal. He probably won't rule any differently. 

At the end of the day she wants to bring war to the Seven Kingdoms. She is no different in that way, than Stannis, Renly and Robb.

 

[kissdbyfire]

18 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

As for MMD, the sole thing she's certain to be guilty of is saying mean things to Dany. Nobody deserves to burn alive for saying mean vindictive stuff.

This x 1,0000000. Is it possible MMD was hoping Drogo would be a total macho arsehole and not follow her instructions? Yup. Is it possible she made the poultice particularly itchy, to encourage Drogo to not use it? Absolutely. But that’s basically it.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

8 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

That just doesn't sound to peaceful to me. When someone is supposed to rule all (people, lands). That's just never a good sign.

Even worse the way to get there:

Dany knows the way of the Dothraki. That she wants to inflict that on the population, who are supposed to be her people and ultimately her son's people is no small thing IMO. And given her son will be a Dothraki Khal. He probably won't rule any differently. 

At the end of the day she wants to bring war to the Seven Kingdoms. She is no different in that way, than Stannis, Renly and Robb.

 

Yeah for sure. She's a bit of a savage herself. But she did show MMD kindness & MMD repaid it by taking all that Dany held dear. 

It certainly wouldn't have been peaceful, no war ever is. Any conquest for the throne, whether it includes khalasars or not, will be a bloody affair. Would the stallion who mounts the world be more violent than any other conquistador? I don't know but I don't think it serves to call him a "dark lord" when that isn't what the prophecy said. 

[sweetsunray]

8 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah it was absolutely violent but I'm a firm believer that you are not responsible for the actions of someone else, only your own actions. Daenerys didn't participate in the violence & did what she could to stop it. She wasn't really in a position to be able to change the Dothraki way of life. 

She did push for Drogo to help get her son on the IT but she didn't request he do that by raping & pillaging the Lamb people. 

I know Dany is no saint but I don't think this can be laid at her feet. 

Then why does she think and cites Jorah's words "this is the price (for the IT)". Once you leave Dany out of the equation, Drogo would not have attacked that Lhazareen town. So, yes, she does bear some responsibility to it.

And well, Dany does feel she has enough power to command Dothraki to stop a rape and demand the rape victim to be surrendered to her. And Drogo gives in to her when his bloodriders complain.

So, actually she does have that power, before the attack.

BTW she's ok at the time with boys being sold to pedophiles, because she didn't claim them either. Guess she thought that would hurt the goal of the attack: get slaves to be sold to raise money for an invasion.

15 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

See this is sticky IMO. If MMD killed Drogo & Rhaego on purpose (I really don't think she did but she takes responsibility for it) then Dany had just as much reason to kill her as Mirri did to kill Drogo right? 

MMD never outright takes responsibility for it. She cannot, for Dany killed Drogo with her bare hands and Jorah carried Dany inside the tent.

Dany accuses MMD of knowing what Dany was buying and still letting her pay it. She forgets that MMD warned her against it. MMDs reply to this accusation is not a confirmation that she knew, but one where she refers to the will of a god. Dany denies it was god's work and then accuses MMD of cheating and murdering the child within her. MMDs reply is not one of confirmation but relief that the stallion wio mounts the world will burn no cities. Her expressing sentiments of relief that Rhaego is dead, does not equal "I murdered the child within your womb". MMD's words are hurtful and spiteful, and callous, but they're not a confession.

Now I get Dany was in the emotional pits and wanted to pinpoint the consequences of her own commands and choices into someone she could blame and then kill for it. But no, Dany had no right to kill Mirri.

[sweetsunray]

11 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

But she did show MMD kindness & MMD repaid it by taking all that Dany held dear. 

MMD repaid her by doing for her whatever she asked, demanded and commanded. But when Dany was disappointed, she started to accuse MMD to have someone to blame. All MMD said to her were very painful truths - that it's a godsend that Rhaego never got to be the Stallion who mounts the world and that MMDs may have had a life which was not a life for her, that all she knew was the pain of having seen her people and temple destroyed.

MMD didn't take all that Dany held dear. Drogo took himself out of the equation. And imo Dany sacrificed Rhaego herself, although she'll never acknowledge it to herself.

[Bernie Mac]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Theon disagrees. 

ADwD, The Turncloak

 

He does. He is full of self pity and remorse in ADWD. I don't really think that is a true reflection of Theon though, he was pure ambition. He wanted to be King.  He wanted to rule the Iron Islands, Casterly Rock and then Winterfell, even if that meant seeing the destruction of the Starks.

Theon is almost pure avarice. Growing up with the Starks, the rulers of the North, it meant wanting to have what Ned Stark had and what Robb Stark would one day.

Once he left Robb and saw his sister was his father's favoured heir he pretty much destroyed any chance of becoming a Stark all to one up his sister. He showed little regret about it, not until he was tortured and beaten and wretched.

The pitiful and wretched creature he has become feels remorse.

[Nagini's Neville]

25 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, I see where you are coming from my issue with Mirri is that she didn't take it out on the Dothraki, she took it out on Daenerys. And while it was naive of Dany to trust her, she did trust her & Dany was the only person in that entire horde that showed her kindness. I totally get her anger at the Dothraki & understand her wanting to kill Khal Drogo but that's not a very good way to pay Dany for her kindness. She used the position Dany gave her against her & in the end took everything Dany loved. 

Maybe she didn't deserve to be burned alive but I do think she earned her fate. I think Dany reacting to what Mirri did, the way she did, isn't so different from Mirri killing Khal Drogo for what he did & if she had only harmed the Dothraki or hadn't tricked Dany to be able to kill Drogo I would totally understand where she was coming from. 

As it stands Dany would have been better off to allow the khalasar to continue to rape Mirri at their whim, abuse her, & then discard her in whatever fashion they wished. As bad as it was for Mirri prior to Dany stopping them, it could have been worse. 

I personally think this is what ppl don't get about sexual assault. At one point it is so bad, that it could not have been any worse. And that point comes sooner, than later. I think a lot of ppl don't know how bad it really is and how it changes you. People don't call themselves survivors for no reason. And for Mirri on top of that her people are murdered raped and enslaved as well. After a certain amount of trauma, there is nothing left to save anymore. At least that's how it feel.

Quote

“Saved me?” The Lhazareen woman spat. “Three riders had taken me, not as a man takes a woman but from behind, as a dog takes a bitch. The fourth was in me when you rode past. How then did you save me? I saw my god’s house burn, where I had healed good men beyond counting. My home they burned as well, and in the street I saw piles of heads. I saw the head of a baker who made my bread. I saw the head of a boy I had saved from deadeye fever, only three moons past. I heard children crying as the riders drove them off with their whips. Tell me again what you saved.” “Your life.” Mirri Maz Duur laughed cruelly. “Look to your khal and see what life is worth, when all the rest is gone.”

The problem is that "all that Dany held dear" had raped, abused, murdered and enslaved everything, that Mirri held dear. Dany did not understand, that she did not save Mirri, because she was already beyond saving. What had been done to her was already to horrible. At least that's how she experienced it herself.

Dany saving Mirri is in some ways comparable to Tyrion not raping Sansa (in other ways it's not comparable at all of course). Dany saving Mirri did not take away, from the fact, that she already had been abused and brutally raped, enslaved, the same happening to her ppl and most of them murdered too; the fact, that Tyrion did not rape Sansa doesn't change that he sexually assaulted her as a child.

Of course those are very different crimes here. But I see the issue often treated the same way.

The problem is that Mirri's life was already beyond repairing and if she truly had taken it out on Dany she would have killed Dany herself, but instead took it out on the person, who had taken everything away from her and it had nothing to do with the fact, that he meant anything to Dany. And also in general why would you let a tyrant live, who has inflicted so much horror and pain on so many people, just because he is also loved by someone, who's a good person? Hitler was loved in his personal life as well. A lot of Tyrants are. Sorry for bringing up the generic Hitler example. 

 

[Nagini's Neville]

 

Quote

 

She did push for Drogo to help get her son on the IT but she didn't request he do that by raping & pillaging the Lamb people. 

 

I agree. But she maybe could have put 2 and 2 together. She knew of the ways of the Dothraki. And they were foreign for her as well. She was not born into their lifestyle. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

22 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Then why does she think and cites Jorah's words "this is the price (for the IT)". Once you leave Dany out of the equation, Drogo would not have attacked that Lhazareen town. So, yes, she does bear some responsibility to it.

I think at that point she is reminding herself what she has paid for the IT, reminding herself that she must stop at nothing to get it now - which I think will play into how she will likely behave later in the books. 

I don't think we can say without Dany Drogo's khalasar doesn't destroy the town. He might not have. Or he might have had another reason to do it - or no reason at all. 

26 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And well, Dany does feel she has enough power to command Dothraki to stop a rape and demand the rape victim to be surrendered to her. And Drogo gives in to her when his bloodriders complain.

So, actually she does have that power, before the attack.

Sure but stopping some of the khalasar from raping some women is a far cry from commanding that they do not rape or pillage at all right? It's their entire way of life & the only reason she holds that power is through Drogo. I think it was questionable to her if he would back her in this but she certainly knew he wouldn't back her if she tried to make them all settle down & live like normal, civil people, because they are not normal, civil people. 

29 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

BTW she's ok at the time with boys being sold to pedophiles, because she didn't claim them either. Guess she thought that would hurt the goal of the attack: get slaves to be sold to raise money for an invasion.

Maybe. Or maybe she knows she has done all that is going to be allowed of her. 

I don't recall her saying or thinking that she is ok with what is done to the boys or that's she wants it done, so it's possible but I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt there. 

33 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

MMD never outright takes responsibility for it. She cannot, for Dany killed Drogo with her bare hands and Jorah carried Dany inside the tent

Well, she can she would just be lying. She doesn't outright say she did it but she implies it & she doesn't deny it. I don't think she is responsible for it BUT I think there is enough there for Dany to think or feel she is responsible for it. 

36 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Now I get Dany was in the emotional pits and wanted to pinpoint the consequences of her own commands and choices into someone she could blame and then kill for it. But no, Dany had no right to kill Mirri.

I understand where you are coming from, I don't think you are clear out in left field or anything I just see it different. She had no right in the sense that no one has any right to kill anyone, other than self defense but I understand why she did it. 

I disagree about Dany being responsible for the actions of Drogo & the khalasar wholeheartedly. 

Let's say I asked you if I could borrow some money & you said no. I continuously asked you, repeatedly, annoying & hounding you until you finally said yes. We meet at the gas station for me to get the borrowed money & you pull out a gun to rob the store. Is that my fault? Am I even partially to blame for that? Let's say I even knew that you did things like this, let's say I knew that the money you were going to let me borrow would likely come from something like this. I still don't think that is my fault. Don't you have a responsibility, as an adult human being, to make good choices regardless of how much someone pleads with or annoys you? 

Let's take it a step further. After you pull out your gun, you start beating the cashier with it. Eventually, I convince you to stop beating the cashier. Am I now at fault for the beating the cashier took up until that point? Should the cashier be angry with me & want to exact revenge for the beating you gave them? If that cashier, later, inflicts some harm upon me don't I have the right to feel jaded about that? I tried to help them, the only way I could & they repaid me by harming me. If said cashier had some hand in my husband's & child's death (or at least I believed so & they did not deny it) I would want that person to spend the rest of their life in prison. I would probably wish them dead. I wouldn't kill them, but I'd like to think I'm a little more civilized than Daenerys. 

Sorry for rambling, my point is just that I understand why she killed her. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

16 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

personally think this is what ppl don't get about sexual assault. At one point it is so bad, that it could not have been any worse. And that point comes sooner, than later. I think a lot of ppl don't know how bad it really is and how it changes you. People don't call themselves survivors for no reason. And for Mirri on top of that her people are murdered raped and enslaved as well. After a certain amount of trauma, there is nothing left to save anymore. At least that's how it feel

I agree & clearly Mirri didn't feel saved, she didn't feel like it could get much worse. But from Dany's standpoint, I understand why she would feel as if she is doing the woman a kindness to stop the rape before 10 more men rape her, stop the abuse before it kills her. 

While I have never suffered abuse to this point I believe I would want someone to stop the 4th man from raping me, rather than allow 4 more to do it also. I mean, obviously I would rather someone stop it before anyone raped me but if I'm going to be raped the sooner it's over the better. 

17 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

The problem is that "all that Dany held dear" had raped, abused, murdered and enslaved everything, that Mirri held dear. Dany did not understand, that she did not save Mirri, because she was already beyond saving. What had been done to her was already to horrible. At least that's how she experienced it herself

Yeah for sure to an extent. Dany held dear finally feeling as if she had a home, a family, a safe place. That is what Dany feels has been taken from her (essentially the same things that were taken from Mirri) and while Drogo & his khalasar were a raping, murdering, savaging bunch, Rhaego was not. I said upthread I don't think MMD was really responsible for Rhaego's death but she did allow Dany to believe that she & Dany together were responsible for it. 

23 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Dany saving Mirri is in some ways comparable to Tyrion not raping Sansa (in other ways it's not comparable at all of course). Dany saving Mirri did not take away, from the fact, that she already had been abused and brutally raped, enslaved, the same happening to her ppl and most of them murdered too; the fact, that Tyrion did not rape Sansa doesn't change that he sexually assaulted her as a child

I agree. To make the two more comparable though, I would say it would be like Tyrion sexually assaulting Sansa, someone coming in & stopping Tyrion & then Sansa hates or exacts revenge on Tyrion & the other someone. It wouldn't have taken away the assault that already occured but it would have stopped it from happening any further. 

26 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

The problem is that Mirri's life was already beyond repairing and if she truly had taken it out on Dany she would have killed Dany herself, but instead took it out on the person, who had taken everything away from her and it had nothing to do with the fact, that he meant anything to Dany. And also in general why would you let a tyrant live, who has inflicted so much horror and pain on so many people, just because he is also loved by someone, who's a good person? Hitler was loved in his personal life as well. A lot of Tyrants are. Sorry for bringing up the generic Hitler example. 

I disagree, I think the reason Mirri didn't try to kill Dany but rather took those she loved was because she wanted to hurt Dany. She wanted Dany to understand what it felt like to have yourself "saved" after you have nothing left to save. Mirri knew that lesson would be far beyond Drogo or any of the khalasar. She knew Dany would get it because Dany is the one that "saved" her. MMD was hurt, bitter, devastated, & vengeful. She wanted someone else to feel the same destruction that had just been inflicted on her & Dany was the only one she could do that to. My issue isn't with her taking part in Drogo dying or even wanting Rhaego dead (I'm of the opinion that he was just a baby & no baby should be wished dead) but after witnessing & experiencing the dothraki horde it is not hard to see why MMD wouldn't want it recreated. My issue is that she used Daenerys's kindness to lure her into a false sense of security & trust only to take it from her & rub it in her face at the first opportunity. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

24 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

 

I agree. But she maybe could have put 2 and 2 together. She knew of the ways of the Dothraki. And they were foreign for her as well. She was not born into their lifestyle. 

Yes. She knew what the Dothraki do, she knows how savage they are, she knows how murderous they are. I don't think their actions can be blamed on her nor do I think it was within her power to change their way of life but I do agree she should have thought about what type of people she was trying to take to her future kingdom & she didn't. She was willing to take 40,000 (I think) Dothraki screamers to Westeros & unleash them upon the people there & never even stopped to think what kind of destruction & devastation she would be inflicting on her people. That was extremely naive & negligent at best & heinous & callous as worst. 

[Nagini's Neville]

Quote

I agree. To make the two more comparable though, I would say it would be like Tyrion sexually assaulting Sansa, someone coming in & stopping Tyrion & then Sansa hates or exacts revenge on Tyrion & the other someone. It wouldn't have taken away the assault that already occured but it would have stopped it from happening any further. 

It was a stupid example/comparison.

I guess, the only comparison, I tried to make was how some reader view the situations: Sansa should be grateful, Mirri should be grateful. Which imo they don't owe gratitude. Since Sansa was sexually assaulted and Mirri beyond saving.

But I guess you can't really compare Tyrion and Dany in that scenario.