The Starks

[The Green Bard]

On 1/14/2020 at 10:02 AM, DR Supporter said:

Is it just me, or are the Starks on the receiving end of every possible worst thing that could happen?

Well Somebody did send them a bunch of direwolves to protect them during all that.  I wrote a series on it, of which my first part was posted today!

[Nagini's Neville]

16 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

His distress was about raping another wife on his wedding night. Tywin was able to make Tyrion rape Tysha, not Sansa

exactly. You kind of contradict yourself. Tywin couldn't (with the scenario we got) and didn't make him. So he must have been upset mainly for a different reason. Given his long talk about his looks and wanting Sansa to comfort him about it (before he was about to rape her, which was absurd) I agree with @Mystical 's assesement, that his own insecurities provoked by Sansa not acting like a willing prostitute, but laying there with her eyes closed, like the scared and repulsed 12 year old she was, and that was the main reason why he stopped. Because before hand he was completely prepared to go through with it. He told her he wanted her, even though he did acknowledge, that she was still a child and that she was frightend (which she told him with words)

He even had the audacity to tell her "talk won't make you any older" after she told him her age (no, but waiting would have), he had an erection, did order her to “Get in the bed," told her "No" when she wanted to cover herself and put his hand on her breast.

So if sexaul assault and planing to rape a child is kind to you... because that is exactly what he did.

[Nagini's Neville]

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I said she knowingly brought the hairnet, not that she knowingly was an accomplice. Idk how thats up for debate. 

You said she was guilty of something. Bringing a hairnet, because you finally want to escape all the torture you have been put through for a year, because you either believe it is a good luck charm ("magic") or will play some role in your long awaited escape does not make you guilty of something. The guy, who is your only hope to escape has instructed you to wear it. She is an innocent prisoner after all, not a guilty one, not a criminal (in this case her father wasn't one). So if you take someones freedom away unjustly, you should expect them to try to take it back. So saying Sansa is guilty of something, because she tries to take something, that was unjustly taken from her is ridiculous IMO

[Nagini's Neville]

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thats who the story is about, your Tyrions and Theons, not your Kyras. Im not sure how much we're supposed to acknowledge it

I'm sorry but this is just the epitome of rape culture. (the moment the predator is capable of making you feel empathy for them (what happens a lot in trail of course), you disregard what they have done and consequently your empathy for the victim. It's like the Brock Turner case, where even though he was caught in the act of raping Chanel Miller, he only got 6 months in prison. With the reasoning, that jail time would have a negative impact on him. Chanel Miller later said the judge had granted the offender what he had not granted her- empathy. Disregarding the negative impact this incident will have on all of her life.

The choice with whom you sympathize or empathize is always your own. People in real life can manipulate you and so can well written book characters. There are a great number of "dark books" with dark POVs like Bateman in American Psycho or Humbert in Lolita. So you really think we are not supposed to feel empathy for Bateman's victims and Dolores just because Bateman and Humbert are the POV characters? That assumptions seems even flawed for children's books. On the contrary it can be used as a device to trick readers into sympathizing and empathizing with characters, who do horrible deeds and in the process the reader becomes quite immoral (in theory) themselves. You basically treat Kyra the same way, she is treated in her world- like she is nothing, therefore not worthy your empathy. So maybe that is GRRM's goal. And a reflective reader might then notice that development and might be shocked and appalled by their own lack of empathy for Kyra- and that in turn would make them question their real life perception and treatment of people, as well as how certain people are treated by society as a whole.

 

[Nagini's Neville]

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I mean that passage always disgusted me, like Arya would mourn her pet more then a person, her friend? Or Ned thinks Arya would think that? Either way, disgusting.

I never took this passage like that at all. IMO it just meant that he was prepared for Nymeria, and dreaded her death, but the reality incomparably worse. I didn't read that like Ned being relieved that it wasn't Nymeria, but utterly shocked it was Mycah.

IMO this "after all" is a phrase right out of a horror novel in that context, but I can't really explain the effect it is having. Maybe an english speaker can explain in better ( if they feel the same way)

[Nagini's Neville]

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Maybe Mycah exists for Arya, not for us, if that makes sense.

Mycah is one of the most mourned deaths among the readers. And if people don't like the Hound, Mycah is most of the time the main reason for it. And even among readers, who like the Hound, the fact that he killed Mycah is a huge issue. Which is interesting, because he has probably. as Arya thinks one time herself, killed many Mycahs. That shows the amount of empathy readers do have for Mycah IMO.

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Theon betrayed Kyra, he took advantage of her and while she expected to have a good time he beat her instead. This was all done while Theon fell deeper and deeper into madness, being plagued by dreams of his murdered foster brothers is why he called Kyra to begin with. And then later while Theon is experiencing a whole new plateau of madness, Kyra comes to him again looking for a hero, which again leads to more madness  

 

If you don't see Kyra and that slave girl as a human being worthy of empathy just as the POVs that's more on you, than a sign, that the writer thinks Kyra and the slave girl aren't worthy of equal empathy himself, but even if he did, with whom and how much you empathize is on you alone. And this attitude is reflective of real life attitudes, where we just don't care about certain people's fate and well-being, because it serves us to dehumanize them. 

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The Volantis hooker is similar. What the hell does Tyrion know about living in a slave city? Griff said no drinking, but no Griff there, only the halmaester some wine and parcheesi. So drunk Tyrion waddles in, gets a hooker without thinking much and when he was finished he saw the doped up girl as she was. Tyrion, since leaving his father, has thought hes falling deeper into the dark side, he immediately tells her the monster that he is, instructs her to rid the world of evil and make something out of herself, when she continued to gaze at him with those spaced out eyes he jumped back into the world of his monstrosity. 

Bottom line: he still raped her, just as Theon raped Kyra.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 minute ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Mycah is one of the most mourned deaths among the readers. And if people don't like the Hound, Mycah is most of the time the main reason for it. And even among readers, who like the Hound, the fact that he killed Mycah is a huge issue. Which is interesting, because he has probably. as Arya thinks one time herself, killed many Mycahs. That shows the amount of empathy readers do have for Mycah IMO.

Absolutely. I do like the Hound, as a character he is great to read & I think I could & do forgive him for everything else he has done, except this. I understand he was under orders but it's still wrong. 

3 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

If you don't see Kyra and that slave girl as a human being worthy of empathy just as the POVs that's more on you, than a sign, that the writer thinks Kyra and the slave girl aren't worthy of equal empathy himself, but even if he did, with whom and how much you empathize is on you alone. And this attitude is reflective of real life attitudes, where we just don't care about certain people's fate and well-being, because it serves us to dehumanize them. 

Yes, I agree. I do think we, as readers, tend to sympathize more with the characters that are more "built up" if that makes sense? I think that is a pretty natural thing. It certainly doesn't mean the others are not worth of equal empathy it's just that the characters that we feel closer to weigh on us more. In a similar manner to how you might hear on the news about someone dying & think oh, that's horrible but if that someone that died was someone you knew it would hit home much harder. 

5 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Bottom line: he still raped her, just as Theon raped Kyra

For sure & I don't care one iota how long she gazed or stared at him. There is absolutely no excuse, ever,  for raping someone. It's worse than killing someone in a way, because there are justifiable reasons to kill someone (like if someone is trying to kill you & you defend yourself) There is just never a justifiable reason to rape someone & while Tyrion is dealing with shit on his own that only serves to give us a deeper understanding of why he acted the way he did - it does nothing to justify his actions, because they are beyond justification. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

You said she was guilty of something. Bringing a hairnet, because you finally want to escape all the torture you have been put through for a year, because you either believe it is a good luck charm ("magic") or will play some role in your long awaited escape does not make you guilty of something. The guy, who is your only hope to escape has instructed you to wear it. She is an innocent prisoner after all, not a guilty one, not a criminal (in this case her father wasn't one). So if you take someones freedom away unjustly, you should expect them to try to take it back. So saying Sansa is guilty of something, because she tries to take something, that was unjustly taken from her is ridiculous IMO

I agree here also. Sansa is not guilty of anything to do with that hairnet or Joff's murder (although I wouldn't blame her if she was) She didn't know what the hairnet was, didn't know Olenna was doing anything other than adjusting it & didn't have the slightest idea Joff would be killed that night. She figures it out after the fact, yes, because she is smart, not because she is guilty of anything. 

When I first read those passages I assumed Sansa was told to wear the hairnet because someone who didn't know her would be the one helping her escape & that would be their means of recognizing her. Maybe she thought the same. The thing is, even if she knew absolutely (she didn't) that hairnet was going to play some part in Joffrey's murder she is still not guilty of anything for wearing it. She is being held prisoner, being abused, frightened, & mistreated. She doesn't owe Joffrey or the Lannisters one single thing & if wearing that hairnet is how she escapes (even if it means she knows it will be used to kill Joff - which she doesn't) She still hasn't done anything wrong. She should want to kill Joffrey & I think it speaks to her heart & nature that she doesn't. I think I would want to. 

[kissdbyfire]

6 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I'm sorry but this is just the epitome of rape culture

I don’t know who you were quoting (it’s not showing for some reason) but, to them, WHAT.

[Hugorfonics]

7 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

You basically treat Kyra the same way, she is treated in her world- like she is nothing, therefore not worthy your empathy.

So, she totally receives empathy from me, the Volantis hooker as well. But yea, I still basically look at Kyra like she is nothing, just a plot device for Theon. (Which of course is mad depressing)

The night is dark and full of terrors, almost all characters are empathetic. The two respected victims especially ooze empathy when they were raped. Kyras all bloody and bruised, its very disturbing. Yet the darkness continues, and the plot moves forward. Kyra comes to Theon later to unsuccessfully escape Ramsay while Tyrion got his first up close glance at the horrors of slavery. 

6 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Mycah is one of the most mourned deaths among the readers.

I never got that vibe from the fanbase. Its usually Robb or Ned, Oberyn sometimes for some reason. (Even Lady)

6 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

the fact that he killed Mycah is a huge issue. Which is interesting, because he has probably. as Arya thinks one time herself, killed many Mycahs.

"A hundred Mycahs"

Which kinda says it all. Hes like Kyra, nothing. One out of a hundred faces that Arya forgets. Its monumentally sad, and I do feel sorrow for them, (as much as I can for a fictitious character) however I also see the growth (usually into darkness) of our povs, it is after all, their story.

6 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yes, I agree. I do think we, as readers, tend to sympathize more with the characters that are more "built up" if that makes sense? I think that is a pretty natural thing. It certainly doesn't mean the others are not worth of equal empathy it's just that the characters that we feel closer to weigh on us more. In a similar manner to how you might hear on the news about someone dying & think oh, that's horrible but if that someone that died was someone you knew it would hit home much harder. 

For sure. 

However having said that, the character whom I feel for the most is Weasel. Idk why exactly, I think its for the exact opposite reason. We don't know anything about her and when she quickly disappears from the story we know just as much. She coulda been anything, our imagination can run as wild as she did in the Riverlands. And if Mycahs one out of a hundred, Weasel is one out of tens of thousands. Westeros is just fucking depressing

6 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

because they are beyond justification. 

Agreed, 100%.

I believe most of our protagonists Tyrion, Theon, Arya, Bran, Dany, Davos and Jaime are good peoples, but I know they've done actions beyond abhorrent. Impossible to justify, possible to rationalize, even if it is just to explore their thin line between a madman and a hero

[Darth Sidious]

The Starks needed a reality check.  Their belief about themselves is not supported by their actions.  They are not the honorable they think they are.  The real reason why they fell is their lack of honor and discipline.  Lyanna broke her engagement to Robert.  I believe Rickard was plotting with Robert against their king.  Robb chose to break his oath to Walder Frey.  Jon Snow commits treason at the wall and  broke his oath.  It is very easy to see why they fell on hard times.  

[Nagini's Neville]

17 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t know who you were quoting (it’s not showing for some reason) but, to them, WHAT.

It was Ser @Hugorfonics in #220 he elaborates on it. And thanks for the agreement, I'm kinda happy, that some people do  

[The Green Bard]

On 1/31/2020 at 1:12 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

She doesn't owe Joffrey or the Lannisters one single thing & if wearing that hairnet is how she escapes (even if it means she knows it will be used to kill Joff - which she doesn't) She still hasn't done anything wrong.

Not to be a purveyor of tinfoil, but there are theories out there that she was being telepathically influenced during the feast.  I'll only elaborate if folks want me to.  

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, The Green Bard said:

Not to be a purveyor of tinfoil, but there are theories out there that she was being telepathically influenced during the feast.  I'll only elaborate if folks want me to.  

Go on then.

[The Green Bard]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

3 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

Not to be a purveyor of tinfoil, but there are theories out there that she was being telepathically influenced during the feast.  I'll only elaborate if folks want me to.  

Go on then.

Well, there is an essayist, asongoficeandtootles.wordpress.com who came up with the theory.  He is very "out there" on a lot of his stuff, but I read it anyway because buried in his writing are several very good insights, and it is always impeccably researched.  From time to time he hits on a gem, and I think this might be one of them.

Anyway, this theory I really think hits on some truth, so I'll try to give a Cliffnotes on it here.  If you all recall, thoughout the feast Sansa has these places where she seems distracted, is staring into space, or is otherwise not paying attention to Tyrion or those around her.  Tootles takes this as a clue that she is being partially skinchanged by someone.  At first I though this a completely insane idea, but it kinda fits in with a few things that tie into my essay on Sansa (mainly the godswood / cat incident). 

The best piece of evidence that there is really something weird going on is that she can barely use he hands later on when trying to change into the clothes she wears to escape.  Tootles suggests, and I take seriously the conclusion, that the reason she is having trouble controlling her body is that someone else had been controlling it not long before.  In a nutshell, his theory is that Littlefinger telepathically compelled her to take the stone from her hairnet and put it in Tyrion's pigeon pie.  

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

Well, there is an essayist, asongoficeandtootles.wordpress.com who came up with the theory.  He is very "out there" on a lot of his stuff, but I read it anyway because buried in his writing are several very good insights, and it is always impeccably researched.  From time to time he hits on a gem, and I think this might be one of them.

Anyway, this theory I really think hits on some truth, so I'll try to give a Cliffnotes on it here.  If you all recall, thoughout the feast Sansa has these places where she seems distracted, is staring into space, or is otherwise not paying attention to Tyrion or those around her.  Tootles takes this as a clue that she is being partially skinchanged by someone.  At first I though this a completely insane idea, but it kinda fits in with a few things that tie into my essay on Sansa (mainly the godswood / cat incident). 

The best piece of evidence that there is really something weird going on is that she can barely use he hands later on when trying to change into the clothes she wears to escape.  Tootles suggests, and I take seriously the conclusion, that the reason she is having trouble controlling her body is that someone else had been controlling it not long before.  In a nutshell, his theory is that Littlefinger telepathically compelled her to take the stone from her hairnet and put it in Tyrion's pigeon pie.  

Cheers. 

I don’t buy it though. I think there are far likelier explanations. I don’t much care for all the numerous theories claiming character X is/was being skinchanged when they did Z. At least this one has Littlefinger as the skinchanger, which is fresh if nothing else, since it seems it’s always Bloodraven!

 

[The Green Bard]

16 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Littlefinger as the skinchanger

Given the scene when he appears to Ned in a vision while in the black cells, I'd suggest that he is very much a good candidate for having pscyonic ability.  

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The king heard him. "You stiff-necked fool," he muttered, "too proud to listen. Can you eat pride, Stark? Will honor shield your children?" Cracks ran down his face, fissures opening in the flesh, and he reached up and ripped the mask away. It was not Robert at all; it was Littlefinger, grinning, mocking him. When he opened his mouth to speak, his lies turned to pale grey moths and took wing.

Let me ask you, do those look like Robert's words?  When did Ned not listen to Robert?  I can't explain Ned imagining Robert saying this.  However, I can easily see these words being Littlefinger's rebuke of Ned for not heeding his "wisdom" in their prior encounter, and also his way of urging him to protect Sansa (this happened after the council meeting where Sansa was there and they all agreed Ned had to repent his treason).

So, If Littlefinger can truly appear to people telepathically like this, it also does a fantastic job of explaining this SSM.     

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Q:[Did Littlefinger influence Joffrey to try and kill Bran?]

GRRM: Well, Littlefinger did have a certain hidden influence over Joff... but he was not at Winterfell, and that needs to be remembered. -SSM, Asshai Forum Chat: July 27, 2008

I mean, he says Joff can be influenced by the man, then he gives an impediment to that influence, without actually answering the question.  I am sure you can see where I am going with this, but I'll say it anyway.  The impediment he gives can be overcome by exactly what I am saying.  If so, it is a huge hint that is missed by almost everybody.  

Finally, and my essays on direwolves give ample evidence to this, being injured gravely, getting sick, having sensory deprivation, etc. can all result in a waking of this type of power if you have it.  Well, such a thing happened to Littlefinger just before the rebellion, when Brandon gave him his nearly fatal wound and he was nursed back to life over a 2-week period.  

Going back to our current topic.  I have always had one big problem problem with all the tinfoil theories for how LF pulled off Joffrey's murder and the generally accepted story of his explained his plan with Olenna.  That problem is witnesses. He proves as Sansa is delivered to him by Dontos, that he doesn't leave them behind.  Well Ollenna is a witness.  In this theory, no witnesses are left behind.  Under that scenario, the Olenna plan would be just BS, which is certainly plausible, given that he is the biggest liar in the story. 

[The Green Bard]

47 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think there are far likelier explanations.

What are they?

[SeanF]

On 1/31/2020 at 12:55 AM, Hugorfonics said:

 

The Volantis hooker is similar. What the hell does Tyrion know about living in a slave city? Griff said no drinking, but no Griff there, only the halmaester some wine and parcheesi. So drunk Tyrion waddles in, gets a hooker without thinking much and when he was finished he saw the doped up girl as she was. Tyrion, since leaving his father, has thought hes falling deeper into the dark side, he immediately tells her the monster that he is, instructs her to rid the world of evil and make something out of herself, when she continued to gaze at him with those spaced out eyes he jumped back into the world of his monstrosity. 

They're dark books

I think Tyrion knows very well that his behaviour is immoral.  He has grown up in a society which views slavery as abhorrent.  Yes, in practice,  noblemen can rape with impunity, but he's well aware that rape is immoral.

[Pontius Pilate]

On 1/28/2020 at 5:47 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Or I don't know. Nymeria is a bloody direwolf, a wild animal who behaves on instinct. 

It's Arya's mental illness causing the wolf to behave with such hostility.