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Alyn Oakenfist

Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

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From what Ive gathered in the books, where preteens getting married is concerned they largely dont. 

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"Sansa is only eleven." Robert waved an impatient hand.

"Old enough for betrothal. The marriage can wait a few years."

 

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Myrcella is nine, Trystane Martell eleven. I have proposed they wed when she reaches her fourteenth year.

However Cersei did make it a point to find out when Sansa bled.

We see Walder not locking down on any number either

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"Also, if your sister Arya is returned to us safely, it is agreed that she will marry Lord Walder's youngest son, Elmar, when the two of them come of age."

Robb looked nonplussed. "Arya won't like that one bit."

"And you are to wed one of his daughters, once the fighting is done," she finished. "His lordship has graciously consented to allow you to choose whichever girl you prefer. He has a number he thinks might be suitable."

As far as the bedding goes, I think its automatically assumed its a must, its a whole perverse westeros tradition involving close family and colorful jokes the, "bedding" 

 

Eta.

Red Widow was very young for the first. For the second as well, not a preteen but very young for childbirth, in our eyes

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“Ser Duncan,” Lady Rohanne said, “I was ten years old when the black dragon rose. I begged my father not to put himself at risk, or at least to leave my husband.

.

"Old men are frail, I know. I learned that from my second husband. I was thirteen when we wed. He would have been five-and-fifty on his next name day, had he lived long enough to see it. When he was half a year in the ground, I gave him a little son

Edited by Hugorfonics

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On 2/15/2020 at 8:50 AM, winter daughter said:

There is no evidence that his offer was sincere.

Thats simply not true. 
The evidence that his offer was sincere can be found in the conversation with his father and Kevan in his previous chapter, where Tyrion argued every point he could think of against his marriage to Sansa. 
And where it was shown by Tywin that marrying her to a different Lannister was a real option if Tyrin refused. Not that that would be any better for Sansa.

He even suggested a marriage to Asha Greyjoy instead of Sansa - the only possible reason being that he knew this would be tough for Sansa (and therefore himself also). 
It is a clear misinterpretation, caused by ignoring the facts, to claim that Tyrion wanted to marry Sansa to get her lands and a keep and pretty wife more than he cared for her, because he explicitly raised the option of Asha Greyjoy as an alternative.

The fact is, no choice he could make would escape Sansa from her fate to be married, and suffer a consummation, to a Lannister at this point.
At that point, from his pov and from any really, he's her best possible option. Even Sansa understood that, and agreed.

On 2/15/2020 at 11:09 AM, winter daughter said:

Except the fact that it was said in a Sansa pov and we don't know if he actually meant it. What we do know is that he wanted this marriage because of the reasons I've already mentioned.

And thats the same lie again, as proven above.

On 2/15/2020 at 4:46 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

I acknowledge, that it's subjective. And I also don't think Tyrion is doing it on purpose. I think it's subconscious. I truly believe he is unhappy about the situation. IMO there are two devils fighting with each other in his heart. The one is his empathy with Sansa, his knowledge about the whole situation and context and the other one is his longing and desire for Sansa (someone like her) and WF and what that represents,

Well done. Thats come a long way from him being a creepy, cruel, self-centred monster who makes no effort or care for her and was actively cruel to her, where Sansa's own empathy for him was 'ridiculous'.

On 2/15/2020 at 4:46 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

IMO this desire is so strong, that it sort of overpowers him at times and his rational thinking. The same way it did with Shae, even though this case was absolutely clear to him as well and IMO it is the same with Sansa. Intellectually he is aware of everything, but his emotions are blind in a way.

Well we may have to agree to disagree. I think his suggestion to Tywin for him to marry Asha Greyjoy instead of Sansa proves that he is not overpowered by desire for Sansa's lands and keep and person.
Further, he explicitly states in that conversation his objection to marrying her - she's too young, and its too cruel to her. 
Further again, he explicitly states what he's after in a wife. And its not lands and a keep - or beauty primarily - they are no more than a side benefit if he can't get what he really wants.

On 2/15/2020 at 4:46 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

So he subconsciously puts himself on the same level than her, because he wants something to connect with her over, totally forgetting the outside circumstances and that that's just in no way possible right now (it could have been possible over a long, long period of time).

I don't think he's totally forgetting, its just that this is happening anyway, so he might as well try and make the best that can be made.
I think thats an infinitely better thing than being utterly callous about it.

I've asked before, and no one has answered. 
What should he do differently?

I think the night would have been very different if he'd done the easy thing. Considered it as a done deal, gone through mechanically, never given her an opportunity to take back what little power or choice she could, never exposed his true vulnerability to her, never given her options and choices (limited though they were), let Sansa hide under the covers instead of face up to what was happening. 
It could so very easily been a very different ending.

On 2/15/2020 at 4:46 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

Sansa doesn't know he is the victim of his family, I think he wants to connect with her over that, but he still works with them, he still benefits from their success, he is still one of them so connection over that so quickly is not possible. He wants "to comfort her. I want to hear her laugh. I want her to come to me willingly, to bring me her joys and her sorrows and her lust." That already shines through IMO. That what he wants from his dream girl, who might look like Sansa, but isn't her. It has everything to do with him and nothing with her. But this longing is so strong, that it overrides a lot of things. IMO it's not fair to Sansa. He is incapable emotionally to suppress his desire and longing and see her as the person she truly is (hurt, child, lost everything, incapable of falling in love with a dawn right now) and not again and again change her into his object of his desire- fantasy- creature.

I think you are utterly unfair here. You effectively ask him to be an un-person. A mindless machine. To cut himself off from his own person. And if he'd done that, I think, as I alluded to in the previous paragraph, that would have been a very much worse result for both of them.

On 2/15/2020 at 6:42 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

"Lady Tanda has offered Lollys …” Tyrion gave a shudder of dismay. “I’d sooner cut it off and feed it to the goats.”  If he felt the same way about marrying Sansa, he would have voiced it the same way as well. He is quite rude and sarcastic in this interation, so I don't see, why he wouldn't.

You should see. Lollys is not a real option being offered, just an attempt to push him in a certain direction. His sarcasm stems from that, whereas he genuinely considers other options, such as Asha.

On 2/15/2020 at 6:42 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

The reason, why he doesn't, Tyrion actually wants WF right from the start of the conversation:

"A wife might be the very thing he needed. If she brought him lands and a keep, it would give him a place in the world apart from Joffrey’s court … and away from Cersei and their father." (here he has already figured out it will be Sansa, it's the next thing he' ll tell his father)

Recognising a benefit is not the same as wanting it being a dominant factor in thinking. And his offer to marry Asha proves that it is not Winterfell specifically that he desires.

On 2/15/2020 at 6:42 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

Later in the conversation:

"it was all for his benefit, he knew."

“You shall never have Casterly Rock, I promise you. But wed Sansa Stark, and it is just possible that you might win Winterfell.” Tyrion Lannister, Lord Protector of Winterfell. The prospect gave him a queer chill."

“You asked me to reward you for your efforts in the battle,” Lord Tywin reminded him forcefully. “This is a chance for you, Tyrion, the best you are ever likely to have.”

This is all pretty cruel, when you consider, that he is aware, than his future wife's brother, who is not dead yet, has to still to die, so that he can get WF. Under those circumstances, how can he ever expect Sansa to ever accept, let alone love him. That's really just impossible IMO. And he shouldn't even attempt. And she is right it wouldn't "work" with any Lannister. 

Thats the point though. It will be happening with a Lannister.
Given that I think its worth attempting. There is a lemon on the table. Not trying to make lemonade would be the flawed thing, IMO, no matter how unlikely it is to work out.

On 2/15/2020 at 6:42 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

At the wedding night he tells Sansa, "that he wants her." in combination with a physical reaction, that's the first real indication we get from his part, that he wants her as a woman too, despite calling her child and not just Winterfell.

Exactly. Its the first time we get him actually wanting her. Land and a keep? Bonus! Beautiful wife? bonus! Sansa Stark? Until now he's never considered her as a woman, only as a child.


Its a complex, multi-layered thing.
She's a child in his mind, so he doesn't want her.
Yet she's also physically clearly not a child, as written, and within their culture. The woman is desirable, by every standard, so he wants her.
Its cruel in his mind, so he doesn't want her.
Yet its going to happen cruelly regardless, and in his own mind and in every interaction she has with him, he is the least cruel possibility for her. 
 

On 2/15/2020 at 6:42 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

Later we get an admission/realization about this in his POV

"I want her, he realized. I want Winterfell, yes, but I want her as well, child or woman or whatever she is."

Indeed. 
She's naked, and sexually attractive. 
I'm not sure there is a hetero man alive who in that situation would at least in part 'want her'. The child thing is not relevant - we've covered that - physically, as written, she is a relatively well developed and culturally appropriate sexual woman. And she's right there in front of him. But like Tyrion, for most men the desire is only in part. The physical response, the desire, is a biological product of the situation. He's just being honest about that to her. 
Its what he actually does with that, how he acts, that matters. And his action is not to leer at her nakedness, not to paw at her, but to lightly touch her once as the next step and pull back entirely and forever at the first actual objection she makes, unconsciously, despite all her conscious assents.

On 2/15/2020 at 6:42 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

So how I read that chapter, it was mainly WF, that motivated him to get away from his family. And what held him back was not wanting to ruin his relationship with Shae. He thought about, how she wouldn't like it and how she is all the woman he needs, while Sansa is a girl.

Except thats clearly false. From the text, his greatest motivation in a wife is clear. But he can't get that - welcome to the nobility. So secondary considerations come in to play. And it was not WF specifically, it was any place that would be his, away from his family. And it explicitly was not Sansa, but almost anyone else.

On 2/15/2020 at 6:42 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

So Tyrion gives a bunch of other reasons, which aren't however a real concern to him,

Are't they? I think they all are, in varying degrees. Just like lands/keep, beauty, willing, adult, genuine partner all are concerns of him, to varying degrees.
His birth, family and culture have made him into a political animal. He has to have all these different concerns. 
He does however, both in past behaviour and in clearly expressed statements, give strong evidence as to what he values more and less.

On 2/15/2020 at 6:42 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

except maybe, that Sansa is still child in his eyes, which he also thinks about.

the main reason is:

"Why would you hesitate?” Why indeed? “A quirk of mine. Strange to say, I would prefer a wife who wants me in her bed.” " 

Look, I know you aren't considering this to be a bad thing.
But how can you argue that it is, if you know its not?

On 2/16/2020 at 10:43 AM, Nagini's Neville said:

Why would that actually be that bad? He is not dimwitted, but also not attractive and comes without lands. But I understand nothing would be gained from this marriage for him. I just find his attitude towards Sansa then hypocritical. Because for Sansa not only doesn't she gain anything from the marriage, but actually looses everything. Why does he still expect her to have a different attitude towards him, than he has towards Lollys.

Lollys cannot possibly be a true partner for him. She seems to be mentally disabled.
Sansa could, possibly. Probably not now, but at some time, she could. Why shouldn't he aim for that?

And Sansa does gain a lot from marriage to him. She gains protection from Joffrey and the other Lannisters. She gains a degree of safety and protection she doesn't have now. She gains someone caring explicitly for her and not just for themselves. She even knows and acknowledges these things through the day, both privately and publicly.
Indeed, her very behaviour immediately recognises and takes advantage of this. She would never have back-answered and contradicted Joffrey so fiercely and openly before she had that protection.

18 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yes, but he doesn't follow that exchange by thinking: I want Sansa or I want WF. He says a wife with lands & a keep. There is nothing he wants about Sansa specifically at that point, he realizes he wants her as an individual, specifically later. But at this point it would be the same if it were Sansa or any other high born maid that came with lands & a keep to allow him to remove himself far from court. 

Indeed, and he even tries for another option (Asha) in order to avoid doing this to Sansa. But its going to be done to Sansa regardless of what he chooses, and eventually he comes to the conclusion that here is no better option available to either of them.

 

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4 minutes ago, Sourjapes said:

I refer her being thirteen going on fourteen and you shouldn't speak in absolutes like that. People mature at different rates, especially given different environments. I don't recall if it is stated in the text or not, but I would assume that Sansa was examined by a maester or septa and cleared for child birth. Otherwise this issue would surely have been brought up. Sansa is no good as a political tool if she dies in childbirth giving birth to a dead fetus. The Lannisters have an interest in making sure she's healthy and that Tyrion doesn't kill her by getting her pregnant. 

yeah, she for sure wasn't seen by a maester or a septa about that. She didn't even know she would be married until they put her in her wedding dress. And you also can't look at person and be sure they can 100% safely deliver a child. And they don't even have ultrasound. Getting pregnant at 12/13 is always a risk. Even today. Also independent from looks. A girl at 12/13 has just started puberty, that means very much still needs to be developed, often there is simply not enough room for the child, to grow and develop accurately, because the girl herself isn't fully developed, therefore preterm births are very likely. That's bad today, even worse in the Middle Ages, because then at least the child dies.

Tywin even tells Tyrion, who argues “She is no more than a child.”, that it is just important, that Tyrion sleeps with her once, so that he is rightfully the husband and then he can wait a couple of years. So the goal is not so much a child right away, but ensuring no one else gets WF through Sansa.

in #274 @Nevets said this about it 

Winterfell - Any claim that Tyrion can make on WF is quite speculative, even without Robb's Will.  If the Northerners refuse to accept Sansa and himself as legitimate claimants, there is little they can really do.  The North is too big, spread out,and obstreperous to rule by pure force.  I think Tywin mentioned it more as a sop to Tyrion's pride than anything else.  Tywin's main concern is ensuring nobody else gets it, at least not through Sansa.

And no she is 12, 13 in a month.

" “How old are you, Sansa?” asked Tyrion, after a moment. “Thirteen,” she said, “when the moon turns.” “Gods have mercy.” "

A Storm of Swords, Sansa 3

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22 minutes ago, corbon said:

Yet its going to happen cruelly regardless, and in his own mind and in every interaction she has with him, he is the least cruel possibility for her. 

but why is it going to happen regardless? He has the power over, whether he beds her or not.

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1 minute ago, Nagini's Neville said:

yeah, she for sure wasn't seen by a maester or a septa about that. She didn't even know she would be married until they put her in her wedding dress.

That doesn't mean she wasn't seen by one at some point. Like I said, it would very irresponsible and self defeating for the Lannisters to kill her with childbirth. They gain nothing from that. 

 

And yes, of-course it is always a risk. I wasn't under the impression Westoros had modern medical care. Were you? People in that world take a risk every time they cut their finger or get an infected tooth. Or receive any kind of treatment from a "healer" for that matter. 

 

2 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

A girl at 12/13 has just started puberty, that means very much still needs to be developed, often there is simply not enough room for the child, to grow and develop accurately, because the girl herself isn't fully developed, therefore preterm births are very likely. That's bad today, even worse in the Middle Ages, because then at least the child dies.

Puberty starts at different ages for different people based on a variety of factors. 

 

5 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Tywin even tells Tyrion, who argues “She is no more than a child.”, that it is just important, that Tyrion sleeps with her once, so that he is rightfully the husband and then he can wait a couple of years. So the goal is not so much a child right away, but ensuring no one else gets WF through Sansa.

Fair enough then, that completely changes the context of the marriage from the way I remembered it. Still, if he had consummated the marriage that would have been normal in Westorosi custom since she has bled. If he continued on though after that, then that'd probably be seen in a different light. Good thing then, that Tyrion didn't do that. 

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1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Just to clarify though he didn't reference "maidens" as being ambiguous, that was pretty clear; a flowered girl. But yeah, the flowered girls before 16 are part child, part woman, as you say "in-between"

I meant that he uses ambiguous to mean the status of a girl who has flowered but is not yet off age.

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Right which is what Westeros is based on right? I don't know why he would reference that if it was to say but that's not the case in universe.

Or he means that in older cultures than the present one in Westeros would regard girls who have just flowered "fit to be wedded and bedded", which is why he adds at the end of the argument that maesters would have caught on that girls tend to have a very high mortality rate if they birth children before the age of 15-16. Older cultures than the current Westerosi one may also have poorer living conditions where girls would tend to flower later.

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Yep, agreed again. I would only note though that specifying that it is perverse to bed a girl not flowered means it's not perverse to bed a girl who is flowered. Otherwise there would be no reason to say it. He would say to bed a girl, flowered or not, before the age of 16, is considered perverse.

In this case he doesn't need to, because Tyrion deems it perverse.

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Exactly. They are allowed to be wedded & bedded. So it's acceptable, it happens, but many men choose (not because they have to according to law or custom) to wait until the bride is 15 or 16 because of the risks of child birth (not because it's perverse or unacceptable)

If many men choose to wait it is "custom".

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Certainly, as it is to say it's rare or hardly happens. 

The majority of marriages are smallfolk marriages, who tend to flower later and have no need to arrange marriages for pre-buscent children.

The minority of marriages are marriages amonst the nobility, and it is not uncommon for betrothals to be arranged for children at pre-buscent ages, but that does not mean the majority of them are arranged at such an age. Only during war times when requiring allies (Dany, Arya, Mooton's daughter to Dickon), betrothals to royalty such as underage kings (Aegon III, Arianne to Viserys) or crown princes (Sansa to Joffrey) or some last female heir to coveted land (baby Emisandre) and the exceptional arrangement with a warden's heir (Catelyn), do these very young betrothals occur. These are particular situations and thus a rarity even amongst the nobility. Only a minority of these rare betrothals actually include a wedding ceremony (Tommen, baby Emisandre) when the children are pre-buscent and it is certainly perverse to consummate them. With the majority of these rare pre-buscent betrothals the wedding is delayed until the girl has flowered, but even then many men wait to consummate.

So, yes, consummation of a child-bride who has flowered is rare and hardly happens.

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Then he says, there are plenty of exceptions. Plenty would be much like many. 

There is a difference between "plenty of exceptions" and "many men". The significant word here is "exceptions".

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Well I haven't asserted it's the norm or common, I've asserted it isn't rare & it happens.

I already agreed that "it happens". I assert per the above it's "rare".

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That GRRM refutes. 

No he doesn't. Saying that bedding pre-buscent children is perverse does not mean he refutes it's not perverse to bed 12 year olds who have flowered. Besides, he's the one who wrote Tyrion considering it perverse and himself perverse for desiring her.

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He says to wait several more years after the initial bedding. Not to wait to bed her at all, but yeah he wants it done because he wants the marriage final, uncontested, consummated, etc.

Duh... Yeah, Tywin wants Sansa his child hostage to be raped, on the flimsy excuse that she's flowered, to make sure that the marriage cannot be contested, because it's a rare event, a hostile act that neither her family nor Sansa would agree with and plenty of people would attempt to undo. It is certain though that Tywin regards it "normal" for a man to have a sexual relationship with a flowered maiden who's a few years older rather than 12.

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Sure, I mean this could be the case in every single one of the beddings that happen before age 15, but you would think if that were the case or even the case most of the time, George would have noted that when being asked about this specific subject, but maybe not. We don't know the details of all of the beddings to say but it's possible. 

He doesn't need to note that. He gives us the examples of the "plent exceptions" in the books.

 

Edited by sweetsunray

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1 minute ago, Sourjapes said:

Fair enough then, that completely changes the context of the marriage from the way I remembered it. Still, if he had consummated the marriage that would have been normal in Westorosi custom since she has bled. If he continued on though after that, then that'd probably be seen in a different light. Good thing then, that Tyrion didn't do that. 

It would also not be regarded as normal. Tywin is just a cruel monster, who doesn't care about children as he has proven many times before. Normal and good parents would never allow, what happened to Sansa. And a husband would just go against the parents wishes to not risk to anger them.

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2 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

but why is it going to happen regardless? He has the power over, whether he beds her or not.

She must be wedded and bedded (consummation), for political reasons. If not him, another Lannister.

I guess you mean the option of planning to fake it from the start?
Thats tricky. There are risks there. Heck, he's lucky to get away with avoiding the traditional public bedding IMO, and well done to him for doing that.
But just as importantly, at every step of the way Sansa has, due to her armour, given him the go-ahead. 

Although he can know its not pleasant, or desirable for her, its also an expected part of their culture and position. Nobles, male or female, often don't get to marry whom or when they choose. Unpleasant or undesirable is simply a price that may often be normally paid for their status and privilege. So tyrion can't actually tell, how much of Sansa's misery is due to the specific circumstance or to the n=general circumstance. She's simply going to be miserably anyway, regardless, due to the political circumstance and he can't change that.
All he can do, is give her every choice and opportunity available to him. And unfortunately, at every single opportunity he gives her, she encourages him personally to go forward to the next step.

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33 minutes ago, corbon said:

physically, as written, she is a relatively well developed

Where do you actually get that from? because having breasts is not unusual for a 12-13. And later LF calls her tall. But he also says men will drown in her eyes, when she is older. I just don't see anything in the text, that is abnormal or would suggest, that she looks older, than the average 12/13 year old. And no matter the body, the face will still be that of a child.

And I don't fault Tyrion for it or anything, but I still don't believe the average hetero man would be attracted to a 12 year old, not that you would be a bad person for it, as long as you don't act on it and don't bother the 12 year old.

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54 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Red Widow was very young for the first. For the second as well, not a preteen but very young for childbirth, in our eyes

.

“Ser Duncan,” Lady Rohanne said, “I was ten years old when the black dragon rose. I begged my father not to put himself at risk, or at least to leave my husband.

.

"Old men are frail, I know. I learned that from my second husband. I was thirteen when we wed. He would have been five-and-fifty on his next name day, had he lived long enough to see it. When he was half a year in the ground, I gave him a little son

Yes, Rohanne is one of those exceptions. However, I doubt she was bedded at 10. It was probably more like a marriage between Tommen and Margaery, and her first husband was only 12. Her second marriage is appalling in every way. She has had many more marriages.

Of course, Rohanne's marriages are a bit of a literary twist. Duncan learns of the Red Widow and all these tales of all the husbands she supposedly got killed. Duncan and the reader imagine her to be a woman in her middle ages at least, and he's shocked to meet with a young, handsome woman. That's when we learn of the many marriages she had had, and not one child survived long. Regardless she managed to have four sons with Gerold Lannister at a more mature age.

Her father however is not portrayed as a responsible man, trying to marry her off yet again to Inchfield and the provision in his will she had to marry within 2 years after his death or the estate and lands would go to another.

Edited by sweetsunray

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27 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Or he means that in older cultures than the present one in Westeros would regard girls who have just flowered "fit to be wedded and bedded", which is why he adds at the end of the argument that maesters would have caught on that girls tend to have a very high mortality rate if they birth children before the age of 15-16. Older cultures may also have poorer living conditions where girls would tend to flower later.

Maybe. 

27 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

If many men choose to wait it is "custom"

I didn't say it wasn't. I said they are not required to wait per law or custom, as evidenced by "many" men waiting rather than most or all 

27 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

The majority of marriages are smallfolk marriages, who tend to flower later and have no need to arrange marriages for pre-buscent children

Certainly. 

27 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

The minority of marriages are marriages amonst the nobility, and it is not uncommon for betrothals to be arranged for children at pre-buscent ages, but that does not mean the majority of them are arranged at such an age

Agreed. Have I argued otherwise?

27 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Only during war times when requiring allies (Dany, Arya, Mooton's daughter to Dickon), betrothals to royalty such as underage kings (Aegon III, Arianne to Viserys) or crown princes (Sansa to Joffrey) or some last female heir to coveted land (baby Emisandre) and the exceptional arrangement with a warden's heir (Catelyn), do these very young betrothals occur. These are particular situations and thus a rarity even amongst the nobility. Only a minority of these rare betrothals actually include a wedding ceremony (Tommen, baby Emisandre) when the children are pre-buscent and it is certainly perverse to consummate them. With the majority of these rare pre-buscent betrothals the wedding is delayed until the girl has flowered, but even then many men wait to consummate

Yep. 

27 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

So, yes, consummation of a child-bride who has flowered is rare and hardly happens

Nope. Not what it says. She would be a maiden, not a child bride, at any rate. 

Many men wait, some do not. A very vague number & hardly proof of the ones that don't wait being rare. They may be the minority, something that isn't explicitly stated here either but is likely given the information we have in the books, but not rare. 

27 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

There is a difference between "plenty of exceptions" and "many men". The significant word here is "exceptions

Exceptions would be, exceptions to the rule. For instance, generally speaking men are physically stronger than women, but there are plenty of exceptions. It's a far cry from rare for a woman to be stronger than a man, it's just what generally happens. 

27 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

already agreed that "it happens". I assert per the above it's "rare".

But you keep insisting that I've stated it's the common custom or what is done most often & I'm not. I'm saying it's done, it's accepted, it's not considered perverse, & it's not rare. 

27 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

No he doesn't. Saying that bedding pre-buscent children is perverse does not mean he refutes it's not perverse to bed 12 year olds who have flowered. Besides, he's the one who wrote Tyrion considering it perverse and himself perverse for desiring her

Ok, explain to me the purpose behind saying it would be perverse to bed a girl who has not flowered if not to differentiate them from a girl who has flowered. That makes absolutely no sense. Stating to bed a girl who is not flowered is perverse is differentiating them from the girls who have flowered, which would not be considered perverse. 

When does Tyrion say it's perverse anyway? He says "you're a child, but I want you" I don't think that equates it's perverse. 

27 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Yeah, Tywin wants Sansa his child hostage to be raped, on the flimsy excuse that she's flowered, to make sure that the marriage cannot be contested, because it's a rare event, a hostile act that neither her family nor Sansa would agree with and plenty of people would attempt to undo. It is certain though that Tywin regards it "normal" for a man to have a sexual relationship with a flowered maiden who's a few years older rather than 12

The marriage is a rare event because Sansa is their hostage & from an enemy house, not because of her age. 

Is that certain? I thought Tywin was one of the people who arranged these types of marriages with young brides? He also encourages Tyrion to bed his bride. Both things that would seem to indicate Tywin doesn't see an issue with a man having sex, at least to consummate the marriage, with a girl flowered. 

27 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

He doesn't need to note that. He gives us the examples of the "plent exceptions" in the books

Ok, but so? I mean, I hardly doubt that's the case in every single situation or even most of them but if it is so what? That doesn't make it any more "rare"

Edited by Lyanna<3Rhaegar

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8 minutes ago, corbon said:

She must be wedded and bedded (consummation), for political reasons. If not him, another Lannister.

I guess you mean the option of planning to fake it from the start?
Thats tricky. There are risks there. Heck, he's lucky to get away with avoiding the traditional public bedding IMO, and well done to him for doing that.

there was no risk for a public bedding, they just would have undressed them like the always do and than left alone.

If it's so tricky and risky, why didn't he even try to fake it after he decided to not go through with it? Why did absolutely nothing happen, when suddenly everyone knew it wasn't consummated. Why didn't he even try to deny it to his father and when Tywin told him he should consummate yet again, he basically told him to f off. So I don't buy it. 

There is nothing easier, than to fake a wedding night. He had time beforehand to think about it an plan it.

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6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes, Rohanne is one of those exceptions. However, I doubt she was bedded at 10. It was probably more like a marriage between Tommen and Margaery, and her first husband was only 12. Her second marriage is appalling in every way. She has had many more marriages.

Of course, Rohanne's marriages are a bit of a literary twist. Duncan learns of the Red Widow and all these tales of all the husbands she supposedly got killed. Duncan and the reader imagine her to be a woman in her middle ages at least, and he's shocked to meet with a young, handsome woman. That's when we learn of the many marriages she had had, and not one child survived long. Regardless she managed to have four sons with Gerold Lannister at a more mature age.

I would think Tommens the exception. Walder made it clear Robb could choose any of his daughters and wanted Aryas hand as soon as she came of age, which Cersei explains means flowering. fArya never gets called out either for being young.

When the age is thought of like in Myrcella or Sansa and Joff, the marriage is pushed back and the engagement is indefinite. Like Tyrek Lannister

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3 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Many men wait, some do not. A very vague number & hardly proof of the ones that don't wait being rare. They may be the minority, something that isn't explicitly stated here either but is likely given the information we have in the books, but not rare. 

In comparison to ALL marriages it is rare. There are fewer nobility, thus fewer marriages of nobility. Of these fewer marriages, a minority are arranged at a pre-buscent age, out of which the majority of the minority of the few are not consummated before flowering, and rarely before the age of 15-16.

4 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'm saying it's done, it's accepted, it's not considered perverse, & it's not rare. 

And I'm saying it happens, it is indeed considered perverse by in-world characters, and it is rare per all the provisions.

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17 minutes ago, corbon said:

But just as importantly, at every step of the way Sansa has, due to her armour, given him the go-ahead. 

not screaming and crying is not giving him the go- head. it was a forced marriage after all.

19 minutes ago, corbon said:

So tyrion can't actually tell, how much of Sansa's misery is due to the specific circumstance or to the n=general circumstance. She's simply going to be miserably anyway, regardless, due to the political circumstance and he can't change that.

So he gotta make her even more miserable by raping her? Being raped at 12 would actually change things big time

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2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

In comparison to ALL marriages it is rare. There are fewer nobility, thus fewer marriages of nobility. Of these fewer marriages, a minority are arranged at a pre-buscent age, out of which the majority of the minority of the few are not consummated before flowering, and rarely before the age of 15-16.

I understand that's your assertion but that isn't what is said. It doesn't say rarely before 15-16. 

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And I'm saying it happens, it is indeed considered perverse by in-world characters, and it is rare per all the provisions

What characters say it's perverse? 

You are changing the provisions to fit your assertion. You are concluding things that are not stated. It is only rare per your claims, not per Georges. 

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3 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

there was no risk for a public bedding, they just would have undressed them like the always do and than left alone.

Yes, that was an aside, not the risk factor.

3 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

If it's so tricky and risky, why didn't he even try to fake it after he decided to not go through with it? Why did absolutely nothing happen, when suddenly everyone knew it wasn't consummated.

Because thast the trciky part. Lying about it can cause a lot more trouble than the actual (in)action

3 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Why didn't he even try to deny it to his father and when Tywin told him he should consummate yet again, he basically told him to f off. So I don't buy it. 

At that point he'd already faced up to that part of the risk.

But lying and being caught lying is often worse than what you are actually caught lying about.

3 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

There is nothing easier, than to fake a wedding night. He had time beforehand to think about it an plan it.

If that even occurred to him, maybe.
Maybe that would have been better. Maybe not. I can;t tell, and I don't think any objective observer can.
But the fact remains that Sansa gave him very possible signal to go ahead, until the point where she didn't, and he stopped.

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2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I would think Tommens the exception. Walder made it clear Robb could choose any of his daughters and wanted Aryas hand as soon as she came of age, which Cersei explains means flowering. fArya never gets called out either for being young.

No, "off age" does not mean flowering. This is made clear because Catelyn says "when both are off age". Arya's bethrothed won't flower after all, but only will be off age when he's 16.

Jon considers it young.

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1 minute ago, Nagini's Neville said:

not screaming and crying is not giving him the go- head. it was a forced marriage after all.

So he gotta make her even more miserable by raping her? Being raped at 12 would actually change things big time

Those are dishonest statements.
I will not engage with them. Try again, perhaps after some time.

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1 minute ago, Nagini's Neville said:

not screaming and crying is not giving him the go- head. it was a forced marriage after all.

Right but offering to disrobe, stating openly she is willing to do her duty & not giving any words of dissent is giving him the go-ahead

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