Heresy 230 and die Herren von Winterfell

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

remember the Royce family armour.

Speaking of bronze; look at the all the bronze the Thenns carry around:

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=bronze&scope[]=adwd&povs[]=Jon
 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon V

For now. "We hold the Wall. The Wall protects the realm … and you now. You know the foe we face. You know what's coming down on us. Some of you have faced them before. Wights and white walkers, dead things with blue eyes and black hands. I've seen them too, fought them, sent one to hell. They kill, then they send your dead against you. The giants were not able to stand against them, nor you Thenns, the ice-river clans, the Hornfoots, the free folk … and as the days grow shorter and the nights colder, they are growing stronger. You left your homes and came south in your hundreds and your thousands … why, but to escape them? To be safe. Well, it's the Wall that keeps you safe. It's us that keeps you safe, the black crows you despise."

 

This sounds like skirmish lines to me.  I think the Others come every winter and the wildlings are the first to deal with them.  That last skirmish line is Winterfell (after the Wall).  I think this gives us the meaning of the words (Winter is coming).

[dialt]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

It's likely the sword is hidden in the crypts and if Jon's dreams are any indication; he must find and claim the sword and become the King of Winter.  My guess is that he will have to contend with the soul of the sword and master it or he will become the thing that Bran saw in the heart of winter.  Mel's ancient enemy personified.  

I loved your back-and-forth with @St Daga about the "frozen hell reserved to the Starks of Winterfell / IX (another IX  ) circle of Dante's Inferno".

I see that comparison. But I was about to add to it the Heart of Winter (and Jon: the last thing Bran sees before the HOW is in fact Jon... laying in the cold).

No matter what exactly Bran has glimpsed (and we'll probably never know) that place and the worlding used to named it, convey the idea of the source/location/embodiment of the big villain that is Winter and what comes with it: The Long Night, the Others. 

In this regard, I think that a parallel between Heart of Winter + Jon laying in the cold / IX circle of Dante's Hell, where Lucifer, the great villain of that tradition, togheter with other traitors lays in the cold, might be seen. 

And as we know, Lucifer = Lightbringer. In our story that is a sword. Can it be by extension its wielder?

 

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

In other words the Last Hero claimed the sword of his opponent which gave him dominion over the Others and he becomes the first King of Winter.  

I love this idea. But the more I think about it, the more I see two very different scenarios.

1. Jon, betrayed (from his pov) and killed by his brothers, is going to become the big villain our story. A sort of Anakin Skywalker stuck in ep. III. The Chosen One who was supposed to bring balance, will bring darkness instead. Or... Luficer: a fallen angel, period.

2. the Others are Other Starks. Outcasted, betrayed and left behind by "our" Starks. Ned's dream about the frozen hell comes after - and because - he killed Lady (a Stark herself) and Nymeria was left behind. It's guilt what causes that dream or something else? Fear maybe?

In short, I believe that one way to interpret the "frozen hell reserved for the Starks" as well as the Heart of Winter, is that they are not a place where all the dead Starks go, nor a place meant to punish evil Starks in the afterlife. But the place where some, other(s) Starks - betrayed and outcasted by the family - were left.
If so, maybe the Others arised from an unspeakable sin the Starks of Winterfell committed. Something that ashemes them if compared to what they believe - and like to think - of themselves and that precisely for that, terrifies them (Bran as well as Ned).

Does it make sense?

Side note: I am trying to figure out if the Titan of Braavos can add something to the tale of the Last Hero. I know it's particularly difficult to connect the history of that city with Westeros, however... a broken sword is there. Not only: the other hand it made of bronze and its fingers are wrapped around the stone. Bronze again, but also a kind of stony fist. Like the fist of the first man (that by the way is another ring)

[Melifeather]

Bronze is a known magical substance while iron is used to guard against magic. That is why the Royce's armor has both bronze and iron. It's the same symbolism as the ancient crown of the King in the North with the nine iron swords circling the bronze - in other words, three times the strength of the magic. The northern families used their iron swords to defeat a magical enemy. The Thenns and other wildlings have items made of bronze. They are also the inmates being held behind the Wall. To me it seems obvious that they were the magical enemy that was defeated.

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, lalt said:

I loved your back-and-forth with @St Daga about the "frozen hell reserved to the Starks of Winterfell / IX (another IX  ) circle of Dante's Inferno".

Well Cheerrs!   St.Dagda always has a lot of interesting things to say!

3 hours ago, lalt said:

I see that comparison. But I was about to add to it the Heart of Winter (and Jon: the last thing Bran sees before the HOW is in fact Jon... laying in the cold).

This has always been an interesting part of the coma dream to me.  

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

 The memory of warmth fleeing is used elsewhere in the book and is used to describe someone who is dead. This is immediately followed by Bran looking into the heart of winter.  So it seems to me both these things are tied together and part of a future vision.  

3 hours ago, lalt said:

No matter what exactly Bran has glimpsed (and we'll probably never know) that place and the worlding used to named it, convey the idea of the source/location/embodiment of the big villain that is Winter and what comes with it: The Long Night, the Others. 

Agreed.  We have talked about the Heart of Darkness/Winter before and I think when a greenseer sees into your heart, that means he sees into the mind and soul as well.  That's why you can't lie in front of a heart tree/weirwood.  I think this is what Bran has seen.  He has seen into the mind and the soul of ice (to use Mel's words) and is given terrible knowledge.
 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Because winter is coming.

Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge. Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid.

 

3 hours ago, lalt said:

In this regard, I think that a parallel between Heart of Winter + Jon laying in the cold / IX circle of Dante's Hell, where Lucifer, the great villain of that tradition, togheter with other traitors lays in the cold, might be seen. 

That's a good question.  The ninth circle of hell is reserved for traitors, oathbreakers, etc.  So I wonder what oath Ned Stark may have broken to dream of the frozen place in hell reserved for Starks.  It calls to mind the words: There must always be a Stark in Winterfell.  Is this part of an oath made in the original Pact?  The price the Last Hero paid in exchange for the help that was given?

3 hours ago, lalt said:

And as we know, Lucifer = Lightbringer. In our story that is a sword. Can it be by extension its wielder?

Yes, recall what Syrio Forel tells Arya:
 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Arya II

"What if I drop it?" Arya said.

"The steel must be part of your arm," the bald man told her. "Can you drop part of your arm? No. Nine years Syrio Forel was first sword to the Sealord of Braavos, he knows these things. Listen to him, boy."

A Game of Thrones - Arya II

It was the third time he had called her "boy." "I'm a girl," Arya objected.

"Boy, girl," Syrio Forel said. "You are a sword, that is all." He clicked his teeth together. "Just so, that is the grip. You are not holding a battle-axe, you are holding a—"

"—needle," Arya finished for him, fiercely.

He is teaching her how to become the sword and that there is not separation between the two.  This is also reflected in the oath of the Night Watch:

Quote

I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come."

I think it becomes perilous if we are talking about a magical sword or swords made using sorcery.  Claiming such a sword and using it could be much the same as claiming the Dragonbinder horn; it will exact a price and the one who claims it will not be the same.

3 hours ago, lalt said:

I love this idea. But the more I think about it, the more I see two very different scenarios.

Yes, I think Jon will be tested and Bran will have some part in the outcome of Jon's struggle.  This is why the 3EC shows him the heart of winter and tells him that this is the reason that Bran must live.  At the end of Dance, Jon is presumed to be dead and his mind and soul is contained within Ghost.  That's a place we know that Tree-Bran can contact Jon.  So Jon's trip to the crypts will be some time after that.

3 hours ago, lalt said:

1. Jon, betrayed (from his pov) and killed by his brothers, is going to become the big villain our story. A sort of Anakin Skywalker stuck in ep. III. The Chosen One who was supposed to bring balance, will bring darkness instead. Or... Luficer: a fallen angel, period.

I think GRRM has said somewhere that Jon will be going down some dark paths and it's always difficult to decipher what GRRM says.  Dark paths could simply mean going down into the crypts but more likely going down dark paths of the mind.  His last thought was stick them with the pointy end.  I know that George said this to Alfie Allen (Theon):

Quote

I asked [George R.R. Martin] about who Jon Snow’s real parents were, and he told me. I can’t say who, but I can tell you that it involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation. It will all come to fruition eventually. The whole thing with all the fight over proper succession is partly inspired by the War of the Roses in the late 1400s, and back then, to ensure pedigree, the monarchies were kind of inbred. It’s definitely fucked up, but it definitely happened back then, so that’s why there’s incest with the Targaryen line. It’s toned down, though.

Source:  https://www.hypable.com/game-of-thrones-star-alfie-allen-theon-just-wants-approval-from-his-family/ 

The Luke Skywalker situation is that his bad uncle is his father.  Consider what Jon would think if he discovers that Lyanna is his mother while thinking that Ned is his father.  I think that Jon learning his parentage could really screw him up any way you look at it the same as it did Luke Skywalker.  I think Bran says as much after he is visited by Ned's ghost even though the dream is fading:
 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

"And why was that?" Luwin peered through his tube.

"It was something to do about Jon, I think." The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so than any of the other crow dreams. "Hodor won't go down into the crypts."

 So no, I don't think Jon will become Darth Vader but he may have to confront that darkness in himself the same way Skywalker did.

3 hours ago, lalt said:

2. the Others are Other Starks. Outcasted, betrayed and left behind by "our" Starks. Ned's dream about the frozen hell comes after - and because - he killed Lady (a Stark herself) and Nymeria was left behind. It's guilt what causes that dream or something else? Fear maybe?

There is no doubt that Ned feels remorse and guilt for killing Lady.  He thinks later that he may have removed Sansa's protection and calls himself thrice a fool at one stage.  But I'm not sure that would be enough to get him sent to hell. 

The identity of the Others.  That's an open question with a lot of potentials answers.  We know that they are made with sorcery out of snow and ice and cold.  Held together with a spell that can be broken with dragonglass. They seem to be weightless and glide across the top of the snow without leaving any tracks. They seem to have individual thought, have a language that sounds like ice cracking. But who are they and what is their purpose and motivation?  Heretics have speculated for a long time.  I don't have an answer.

3 hours ago, lalt said:

In short, I believe that one way to interpret the "frozen hell reserved for the Starks" as well as the Heart of Winter, is that they are not a place where all the dead Starks go, nor a place meant to punish evil Starks in the afterlife. But the place where some, other(s) Starks - betrayed and outcasted by the family - were left.

I think this idea has potential.

3 hours ago, lalt said:

If so, maybe the Others arised from an unspeakable sin the Starks of Winterfell committed. 

I think they were the creation of the CotF in the fight against the First Men, the Battle for the Dawn. 

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, lalt said:

Side note: I am trying to figure out if the Titan of Braavos can add something to the tale of the Last Hero. I know it's particularly difficult to connect the history of that city with Westeros, however... a broken sword is there. Not only: the other hand it made of bronze and its fingers are wrapped around the stone. Bronze again, but also a kind of stony fist. Like the fist of the first man (that by the way is another ring)

The founding of Braavos comes too late in the timeline to connect it with the Last Hero.  It's interest for me is in the House of Black and White and the Faceless Men.  Although I am curious about the Titan of Braavos and what or who the statue represents.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

5 hours ago, lalt said:

If so, maybe the Others arised from an unspeakable sin the Starks of Winterfell committed. 

I think they were the creation of the CotF in the fight against the First Men, the Battle for the Dawn.

I think I will take a stab at this having given it some more thought.  I'll use occam's razor.  I think the WWs are souls of dead CoTF, the original army from the Battle of the Dawn.  When the armor is plincked and the spell is broken; I don't think their soul is destroyed.

The WWs display the same malice and hatred for men that they did when they were first created.  They hate iron, a superior weapon and they despise the living with hot blood in their veins.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"Gone down into the earth," she answered. "Into the stones, into the trees. Before the First Men came all this land that you call Westeros was home to us, yet even in those days we were few. The gods gave us long lives but not great numbers, lest we overrun the world as deer will overrun a wood where there are no wolves to hunt them. That was in the dawn of days, when our sun was rising. Now it sinks, and this is our long dwindling. The giants are almost gone as well, they who were our bane and our brothers. The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundred. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us."

She seemed sad when she said it, and that made Bran sad as well. It was only later that he thought, Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill.

 

I'm going to say that the original CoTF/WW are still wroth.

[Black Crow]

Occam has always sounded good to me and that's why I hold to the dead Starks. The blue-eyed lot look nothing like the three-fingered tree-huggers. But they do look like Starks and that also gives us an in to all sorts of connections. Especially once you factor in the Wild Hunt/Nazgul parallels.

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Occam has always sounded good to me and that's why I hold to the dead Starks. The blue-eyed lot look nothing like the three-fingered tree-huggers. But they do look like Starks and that also gives us an in to all sorts of connections. Especially once you factor in the Wild Hunt/Nazgul parallels.

 

How do they look like Starks? Can you expand on the connections? 

[LynnS]

33 minutes ago, LynnS said:

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Occam has always sounded good to me and that's why I hold to the dead Starks. The blue-eyed lot look nothing like the three-fingered tree-huggers. But they do look like Starks and that also gives us an in to all sorts of connections. Especially once you factor in the Wild Hunt/Nazgul parallels.

 

How do they look like Starks? Can you expand on the connections? 

Wait.  Never mind.  I forget stuff sometimes unless I'm reminded.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Hunt 

 

[LynnS]

On 5/13/2020 at 9:28 AM, lalt said:

2. the Others are Other Starks. Outcasted, betrayed and left behind by "our" Starks. Ned's dream about the frozen hell comes after - and because - he killed Lady (a Stark herself) and Nymeria was left behind. It's guilt what causes that dream or something else? Fear maybe?

In short, I believe that one way to interpret the "frozen hell reserved for the Starks" as well as the Heart of Winter, is that they are not a place where all the dead Starks go, nor a place meant to punish evil Starks in the afterlife. But the place where some, other(s) Starks - betrayed and outcasted by the family - were left.

If so, maybe the Others arised from an unspeakable sin the Starks of Winterfell committed. Something that ashemes them if compared to what they believe - and like to think - of themselves and that precisely for that, terrifies them (Bran as well as Ned).

REVISE: not a theory but a collection of data and some spitballing. 

 The frozen Hell reserved for Starks/Ninth Circle of Hell and why Starks end up there:

Quote

 

Ninth Circle (Treachery)[edit]

 

Dante speaks to the traitors in the ice, Canto XXXII

Canto XXXII
At the base of the well, Dante finds himself within a large frozen lake: Cocytus, the Ninth Circle of Hell. Trapped in the ice, each according to his guilt, are punished sinners guilty of treachery against those with whom they had special relationships. The lake of ice is divided into four concentric rings (or "rounds") of traitors corresponding, in order of seriousness, to betrayal of family ties, betrayal of community ties, betrayal of guests, and betrayal of lords. This is in contrast to the popular image of Hell as fiery; as Ciardi writes, "The treacheries of these souls were denials of love (which is God) and of all human warmth. Only the remorseless dead center of the ice will serve to express their natures. As they denied God's love, so are they furthest removed from the light and warmth of His Sun. As they denied all human ties, so are they bound only by the unyielding ice."^[99] This final, deepest level of hell is reserved for traitors, betrayers and oathbreakers (its most famous inmate is Judas Iscariot).

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(Dante)

Sounds very like the sins the old gods do not forgive: kinslaying, kingslaying, not honoring guest rights and ultimately dishonoring the gods. The Starks have a special relationship with the old gods, perhaps something to do with the terms and conditions of  the Pact.  The direwolves seem to be evidence of that relationship.

Bran tells us that some of the old kings have done terrible things. 

 

The Kings of Winter

 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran VII

Their footsteps echoed through the cavernous crypts. The shadows behind them swallowed his father as the shadows ahead retreated to unveil other statues; no mere lords, these, but the old Kings in the North. On their brows they wore stone crowns. Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt. Edwyn the Spring King. Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf. Brandon the Burner and Brandon the Shipwright. Jorah and Jonos, Brandon the Bad, Walton the Moon King, Edderion the Bridegroom, Eyron, Benjen the Sweet and Benjen the Bitter, King Edrick Snowbeard. Their faces were stern and strong, and some of them had done terrible things, but they were Starks every one, and Bran knew all their tales. He had never feared the crypts; they were part of his home and who he was, and he had always known that one day he would lie here too.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

He wished they were here now; the vault might not have seemed so dark and scary. Summer stalked out in the echoing gloom, then stopped, lifted his head, and sniffed the chill dead air. He bared his teeth and crept backward, eyes glowing golden in the light of the maester's torch. Even Osha, hard as old iron, seemed uncomfortable. "Grim folk, by the look of them," she said as she eyed the long row of granite Starks on their stone thrones.

"They were the Kings of Winter," Bran whispered. Somehow it felt wrong to talk too loudly in this place.

Osha smiled. "Winter's got no king. If you'd seen it, you'd know that, summer boy."

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran VII

At the edge of the wolfswood, Bran turned in his basket for one last glimpse of the castle that had been his life. Wisps of smoke still rose into the grey sky, but no more than might have risen from Winterfell's chimneys on a cold autumn afternoon. Soot stains marked some of the arrow loops, and here and there a crack or a missing merlon could be seen in the curtain wall, but it seemed little enough from this distance. Beyond, the tops of the keeps and towers still stood as they had for hundreds of years, and it was hard to tell that the castle had been sacked and burned at all. The stone is strong, Bran told himself, the roots of the trees go deep, and under the ground the Kings of Winter sit their thrones. So long as those remained, Winterfell remained. It was not dead, just broken. Like me, he thought. I'm not dead either.

 It's not often that that living lords of house Stark are called Kings in the North until Robb claims the crown.  In the crypts, recent lords do not have a crown.  Bran refers to them as the lords of Winterfell rather than kings.  Then this reverts to Kings in the North after Thorrhen Stark gives up the kingship.  It's not clear to me when Bran starts referring to the Kings of Winter or if he considered them all the Kings of Winter.  Jon refers to them as the old Kings of Winter. 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon IV

"Do you ever find anyone in your dream?" Sam asked.

Jon shook his head. "No one. The castle is always empty." He had never told anyone of the dream, and he did not understand why he was telling Sam now, yet somehow it felt good to talk of it. "Even the ravens are gone from the rookery, and the stables are full of bones. That always scares me. I start to run then, throwing open doors, climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for anyone. And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It's black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don't want to. I'm afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it's not them I'm afraid of. I scream that I'm not a Stark, that this isn't my place, but it's no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream." He stopped, frowning, embarrassed. "That's when I always wake." His skin cold and clammy, shivering in the darkness of his cell. Ghost would leap up beside him, his warmth as comforting as daybreak. He would go back to sleep with his face pressed into the direwolf's shaggy white fur. "Do you dream of Horn Hill?" Jon asked.

It seems to me that only dead Lords and Kings are called Kings of Winter. 

Jon's dream of going down into the crypts, denying that he is a Stark, that the crypts aren't his place but forced to go anyway;  feels a lot like Bran's experience with the 3EC; something that Bran is forced to do.  Jon is afraid of what might be waiting for him down there but it's not the old kings of winter he fears.  I'm not sure what force compels him to go against his will, unless his soul is being drawn to it in the same way that Ned Stark's soul is back to the crypts or Varamyr's soul floats once he experiences the true death.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

The rest of his father's words were drowned out by a sudden clatter of wood on wood. Eddard Stark dissolved, like mist in a morning sun. Now two children danced across the godswood, hooting at one another as they dueled with broken branches. The girl was the older and taller of the two. Arya! Bran thought eagerly, as he watched her leap up onto a rock and cut at the boy. But that couldn't be right. If the girl was Arya, the boy was Bran himself, and he had never worn his hair so long. And Arya never beat me playing swords, the way that girl is beating him. She slashed the boy across his thigh, so hard that his leg went out from under him and he fell into the pool and began to splash and shout. "You be quiet, stupid," the girl said, tossing her own branch aside. "It's just water. Do you want Old Nan to hear and run tell Father?" She knelt and pulled her brother from the pool, but before she got him out again, the two of them were gone.

After that the glimpses came faster and faster, till Bran was feeling lost and dizzy. He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her. Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor. A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows. The tree itself was shrinking, growing smaller with each vision, whilst the lesser trees dwindled into saplings and vanished, only to be replaced by other trees that would dwindle and vanish in their turn. And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them.

Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand.

 

I suspect that Jon is heading to the deepest parts of the crypts where the first King of Winter is buried with the sword Ice and the crown of the King of Winter.

 

The Nazgul or the Nine 

We know the Nazgul are nine dead kings raised from their graves by the necromancer to do his bidding.  This seems to fit with the crown of the King of Winter and it's nine iron swords as well as the grove of weirwood where Jon and Sam takes their vows.

We know that the WW are made with sorcery.  Who or what is the necromancer.  Could it be that in Jon's dream he will meet the necromancer who will judge whether or not Jon should be consigned to the frozen hell reserved for Starks?  To become White Walkers?

To lead the wild hunt?

 

The Wild Hunt:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Hunt

I'll just pull out a few things from the above link that seem germane to the story:
 

Quote

 

- Wild Hunts typically involve a 'soul-raving' chase led by a mythological figure escorted by a ghostly or supernatural group of hunters passing in wild pursuit.

- The hunters are generally the souls of the dead

- it was also believed that people's spirits could be pulled away during their sleep to join the cavalcade

- Grimm interpreted the Wild Hunt phenomenon as having pre-Christian origins, arguing that the male figure who appeared in it was a survival of folk beliefs about the god Wodan, who had "lost his sociable character, his near familiar features, and assumed the aspect of a dark and dreadful power...

- they alternately float "unseen through the air, perceptible in cloudy shapes, in the roar and howl of the winds, carrying on war, hunting

- The leader also is sometimes an undead noble, most often called Count Hackelberg or Count Ebernburg, who is cursed to hunt eternally because of misbehaviour during his lifetime,

In western Sweden and sometimes in the east as well, it has been said that Odin was a nobleman or even a king who had hunted on Sundays and therefore was doomed to hunt down and kill supernatural beings until the end of time 

 

 

It certainly does seem like the wild hunt is on at the end of Dance with Jon's death and the cold blasting up against the Wall.  Borroq warns that they are close behind.

Seems to me there has been some soul-reaving going on given the number of dead raised so far.  I think Ned's dream.of a storm of rose petals blue as the eyes of death is a premonition about the wild hunt.  

 

[Melifeather]

Is there any evidence that there were factions of CotF? Perhaps there was a splinter group that "helped" the Last Hero, but weren't representative of the larger group?

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

The stone is strong, Bran told himself, the roots of the trees go deep, and under the ground the Kings of Winter sit their thrones.

I understand that the assumed context is that the stone kings sitting on their stone thrones are the ones in the crypts, but what if this has two meanings? Bloodraven sits, and Bran was provided, a weirwood throne, and Beric Dondarrion's underground hideout also had a weirwood throne. I suspect that there may be more to Bran's thoughts - a suggestion that Stark greenseers may have been the true Kings of Winter.

[LynnS]

53 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Is there any evidence that there were factions of CotF? Perhaps there was a splinter group that "helped" the Last Hero, but weren't representative of the larger group?

The cops were at my door again today.  That's what happens when you charge your phone and forget to turn it on and your sister can't reach you for a couple of days.  This time I was dead asleep and only half awake talking to him and he sort of hung around untiI I called my sister, making sure there wasn't something wrong with me.   It's nice to know someone is looking out for me.

To answer your question, I don't there is any evidence of different factions or species of cotf.  I don't think they have any pets either, like ice spiders.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandkings_(novelette)

47 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I understand that the assumed context is that the stone kings sitting on their stone thrones are the ones in the crypts, but what if this has two meanings? Bloodraven sits, and Bran was provided, a weirwood throne, and Beric Dondarrion's underground hideout also had a weirwood throne. I suspect that there may be more to Bran's thoughts - a suggestion that Stark greenseers may have been the true Kings of Winter.

 Yes, I often think there is a subtext in Martin's writing.  I think that's a possibility.

[alienarea]

The cynic in me: Still amazed what you come up with only because GRRM lost his narration and cannot finish the story. Half of the heresy threads would not have happened had he stuck to his schedule.

The books will remain more famous in their unfinished state than with a rushed, sloppy ending like the show.

And, of course, GRRM knows this and will not finish them.

"You know nothing, sweet summer child."

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, alienarea said:

The cynic in me: Still amazed what you come up with only because GRRM lost his narration and cannot finish the story. Half of the heresy threads would not have happened had he stuck to his schedule.

The books will remain more famous in their unfinished state than with a rushed, sloppy ending like the show.

And, of course, GRRM knows this and will not finish them.

"You know nothing, sweet summer child."

Oh don't give up now Alienarea.  There is going to one more book and then years of conversation, argument and fist fights to keep you going. For me, after that, it will be up to a younger generation to carry the torch.  In 10 or 20 years, I won't even remember that I read the book in the first place.  So I'm covered.

[alienarea]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Oh don't give up now Alienarea.  There is going to one more book and then years of conversation, argument and fist fights to keep you going. For me, after that, it will be up to a younger generation to carry the torch.  In 10 or 20 years, I won't even remember that I read the book in the first place.  So I'm covered.

I'm not giving up.

Hey, I discovered my old Pink Letter analysis yesterday. Is anyone interested?

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

I'm not giving up.

Hey, I discovered my old Pink Letter analysis yesterday. Is anyone interested?

Good and yes.

[dialt]

@LynnS 

As an Italian ("forced" to study at least twice the Divina Commedia - middle school and high school), the moment I read that post about the IX circle of Dante's Inferno, I though "Fu***, I should have seen it, first".

I'm joking of course. But yes, I am aware of the  use of "betrayal" in that work. And quite frankly - for me - that was probably the most interesting thing of your posts/discussion on the subject because of a number of things I was thinking about without being able to connect them.

Having said that, by this time, we are all opereting under our own lines of thought. And for what it worth, I am even willingly to call mine... fixations. So it's not that I want to convince you or everybody to get on board, but if I have to explain my reasoning, I have to refer again that study/idea about the prologues and their 5/5 patterns. Sorry if that's boring/annoying.

But... I am not an expert of LOTR, I never knew about the Wild Hunt myth... still I pointed to "hunting people/animals" and to a possible connection between direwolves and Others because of that idea/study, and it happens that "betrayl" is another pattern of my list. More precisely - literally or figuratively - the "betrayal of a brother/bortherhood" as it is - literally or figuratively - "fratricide". 

 In Bran's vision - just before the Heart of Winter - Jon lays in the cold. I agree that this represents his fate in Dance. And in Dance - from Jon's pov - he was betrayed and killed by his brothers.

In Ned's dream, the Frozen Hell comes at the end of a passage about Lady (a Stark herself) and Arya/Nymeria. One is betrayed and killed by Ned, the other is left behind (and I really think that the words of Nymeria/Arya to the dead body of Catelyn "Rise, she thought. Rise and eat and run with us" are paramount clues not only because they foreshow Lady Stoneheart, but because of the connection I see between direwolves/Others... and vengeance)

Digression, skip if you want to

Spoiler

Heart -> Heart trees; Lady stoneheart; Heart of winter.
Dead Heart/weirwood trees turn into stone =  stone hearts.
The hands of Whites and Coldhands are cold and hard as stone because the heart stops beating and the blood gathers there.
The ice in the wolves paws is described as hard as stone.

Back to the point, in both cases (1. Jon/Heart of Winter 2. Lady, Nymeria/Frozen Hell) we have a betrayl and the killing of a brother /of someone of your own kin. In the second case the events that follow would lead to a revenge campaign (that of Lady Stoneheart) and to something that looks a lot like a wild hunt.

In my opinion, however, GRRM's aim was not that of leaving clues to make us find... a place. I believe that he established - and carefully hide at the same time - some connections between some ideas/concepts. That those connections are what matter and that we're asked of following their trails.

So I don't know what Jon's fate is going to be. But I won't rule out something bad that we didn't see coming. Especially if I take into consideration everything that makes Ghost a "special" direwolf. I really don't know... but some little details here and there makes me shiver.

Moving forward, if you ask me what the "orinal sin" may be... I believe that it may have to do with the Pact First Men /Children of the Forest. A pact - keep in mind - that yielded to mankind ownership of the lands. 

I think that Long Night could have been a consequence of that pact, not because someone broke it, but because the pact itself was based on a betrayal.

@Melifeather in my opion, is far more likely that it was signed between COTF and a faction of the First Men. Those who became lords, founders of castles/houses. The other First Men faction, being betrayed, outcasted and slaughtered.

Or at the very least, that just because houses/castles were founded and as a consequence rules of land ownership and inheritance established, in the following years some were excluded (set apart, denied, etc..) and feuds occurred, between some factions and the others.  

I think that this may be a good explaination per se. But I came to it... because that of "not having a castle = no social rise" is -imo - another 5/5 pattern form the prologues.

Spoiler

AGOT

- Ser Waymar Royce was the youngest son of an ancient house with too many heirs (...), but no one could say he had not prepared for his vocation. At least insofar as his wardrobe was concerned. His cloak was his crowning glory.
Words matter. And the emphasis here is put on the words “with too many heirs" we're pushed to ask ourselves what do the sons of ancient houses without too many heirs... inherit?  And the answer is a castle, a keep, something like that. In Royce's case the only "crowning glory" left is the black cloak of the NW. And it’s safe to say that the word “crowing” conveys the idea of kingship. And kings live in castles.

To label this case: there's no castle to inherit & no glory.

ACOK
- "His," Stannis broke in, "when by rights they should be mine. I never asked for Dragonstone. I never wanted it. I took it because Robert's enemies were here and he commanded me to root them out. [...] And what was Robert's thanks? He names me Lord of Dragonstone, and gives Storm's End and its incomes to Renly." 
- Dragonstone, old and strong though it was, commanded the allegiance of only a handful of lesser lords, whose stony island holdings were too thinly peopled to yield up the men that Stannis needed.

Dragonstone may be prestigious, but it’s not the best asset for Stannis who wants to move war and seize the crown.  And in any case, it’s not... not the castle he really wanted.

ASOS
- He had liked the look of Craster's Keep, himself. Craster lived high as a lord there, so why shouldn't he do the same? That would be a laugh. Chett the leechman's son, a lord with a keep. His banner could be a dozen leeches on a field of pink. But why stop at lord? Maybe he should be a king. Mance Rayder started out a crow. 
As we know, in the end things don't go well for Chett. And here's what he has to say:
- "We're lost." There'd be no lord's life for the leechman's son, no keep to call his own, no wives nor crowns... Only a wildling's sword in his belly, and then an unmarked grave. 

= No castle to seize and settle in (and of course no social rise)

AFFC
- Once he had dreamed of being a maester in a castle, in service to some open-handed lord who would honor him for his wisdom (...)
But, as for Chett, things are not looking good for Pete and in fact, later on
- he tripped upon a cobble and wondered who he was fooling. There would be no chain for him, no seat at a lord's high table, no tall white horse to ride. 

= No castle to go (because there won't be any social rise).

ADWD
- Before Mance, Varamyr Sixskins had been a lord of sorts. He lived alone in a hall of moss and mud and hewn logs that had once been Haggon's, attended by his beasts. A dozen villages did him homage in bread and salt and cider, offering him fruit from their orchards and vegetables from their gardens.

Varamyr killed his mentor and took possess of what is the FF's version of a castle: the description of the dozen villages paying homage to this "lord of sorts" echoes Stannis's words about Storm's End and its incomes, given to Renly. 
However, our wildling lord of sorts has now lost everything: he lays covered by snow and is about to die because a wildling child stabbed him on his belly. The parallel with the Chett's words is amazing, whilst in this case...

a Castle was got and lost (= social rise and fall).

I would only add that I have reasons to believe that the feud among First Men turned into a feud Skinchangers vs Skinchangers... but for the moment I'd stop here. 

[dialt]

2 hours ago, alienarea said:

I'm not giving up.

Hey, I discovered my old Pink Letter analysis yesterday. Is anyone interested?

Sure!

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, lalt said:

As an Italian ("forced" to study at least twice the Divina Commedia - middle school and high school),

Lucky you!  I would have preferred that to the Apprenticehip of Duddy Kravitz or Cather in the Rye.

1 hour ago, lalt said:

the moment I read that post about the IX circle of Dante's Inferno, I though "Fu***, I should have seen it, first".

Hah.  That reminds me of time that I was working on a public sourced project and looking for unknown or previously unseen celestial objects from the Sloan Digital Sky Survey.  I spotted the Violin Clef galaxy a week before it was spotted by one of my compatriots.  I didn't report it because it was so spectacular that surely someone would have spotted it and reported it before me..  

So Fu****, this could have been me. Damn it, Bruno.  Hahahahaha!  But that's the way the galaxy crumbles.

https://www.universetoday.com/90240/galaxy-zoo-reveals-curious-violin-clef-quadruple-galaxy-merger/  

1 hour ago, lalt said:

I'm joking of course. But yes, I am aware of the  use of "betrayal" in that work. And quite frankly - for me - that was probably the most interesting thing of your posts/discussion on the subject because of a number of things I was thinking about without being able to connect them.

Having said that, by this time, we are all opereting under our own lines of thought. And for what it worth, I am even willingly to call mine... fixations. So it's not that I want to convince you or everybody to get on board, but if I have to explain my reasoning, I have to refer again that study/idea about the prologues and their 5/5 patterns. Sorry if that's boring/annoying.

This is really the whole point of heresy I think.  We are all  operating under our own interests/fixations but the point is to come to a better understanding of the material by sharing those unique points of view or ways of understanding or how one engages with the material.  So you are not boring or annoying me.  Also when we are dealing with subtext; it's not always easy to express what someone intuits or senses.  But that doesn't mean it isn't valid.  It just might not be easy to put into words.  So by all means, explain your reasoning so we can better understand.

1 hour ago, lalt said:

But... I am not an expert of LOTR, I never knew about the Wild Hunt myth... still I pointed to "hunting people/animals" and to a possible connection between direwolves and Others because of that idea/study, and it happens that "betrayl" is another pattern of my list. More precisely - literally or figuratively - the "betrayal of a brother/bortherhood" as it is - literally or figuratively - "fratricide". 

Exactly.

1 hour ago, lalt said:

But... I am not an expert of LOTR, I never knew about the Wild Hunt myth... still I pointed to "hunting people/animals" and to a possible connection between direwolves and Others because of that idea/study, and it happens that "betrayl" is another pattern of my list. More precisely - literally or figuratively - the "betrayal of a brother/bortherhood" as it is - literally or figuratively - "fratricide". 

 In Bran's vision - just before the Heart of Winter - Jon lays in the cold. I agree that this represents his fate in Dance. And in Dance - from Jon's pov - he was betrayed and killed by his brothers.

In Ned's dream, the Frozen Hell comes at the end of a passage about Lady (a Stark herself) and Arya/Nymeria. One is betrayed and killed by Ned, the other is left behind (and I really think that the words of Nymeria/Arya to the dead body of Catelyn "Rise, she thought. Rise and eat and run with us" are paramount clues not only because they foreshow Lady Stoneheart, but because of the connection I see between direwolves/Others... and vengeance)

This makes sense to me.

1 hour ago, lalt said:

In my opinion, however, GRRM's aim was not that of leaving clues to make us find... a place. I believe that he established - and carefully hide at the same time - some connections between some ideas/concepts. That those connections are what matter and that we're asked of following their trails.

So I don't know what Jon's fate is going to be. But I won't rule out something bad that we didn't see coming. Especially if I take into consideration everything that makes Ghost a "special" direwolf. I really don't know... but some little details here and there makes me shiver.

Agreed.

1 hour ago, lalt said:

Moving forward, if you ask me what the "orinal sin" may be... I believe that it may have to do with the Pact First Men /Children of the Forest. A pact - keep in mind - that yielded to mankind ownership of the lands. 

I think that Long Night could have been a consequence of that pact, not because someone broke it, but because the pact itself was based on a betrayal.

Interesting.  We don't really know the full terms and conditions of the Pact for turning over ownership of the land.  All I can say is that there was a price to pay and the Starks are paying it.

Nicely done Lalt.  Thanks for sharing your thoughts and ideas.