Heresy 230 and die Herren von Winterfell

[Tyryan Lannister]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Well the problem there is that we don't know why or when Rhaegar called it the tower of joy [no initial caps in the text] - or for that matter who told Lord Eddard that he had called it that.

After all its worth remembering that his lawfully wedded wife was Elia of Dorne and its entirely possible that he met his bride-to-be there as she passed from Dorne into Westeros proper. A public declaration at that point would be a godsend for the ballad-singers and account for "common knowledge"

Hell it could even be that the Dornish had always called it the tower of joy, but the people of the Reach and the Stormlands had a different name for it.  Ned probably never knew of it regardless until the very end, at which point he would have heard that Rhaegar called it one thing, the Stormlanders et al in his retinue another, without the knowledge that this is what the Dornish call it.

 

 

But, simplest answers are usually the correct ones: it's likely either what you mention above vis-a-vis Elia, or it is something along the lines of being the location that Rhaegar and Lyanna sequestered to when they first "wed" (assuming a wedding did indeed take place).

 

 

EDIT: actually, makes since for that to be the generic Dornish name for the tower, and why the Reachers and Stormlanders would have a different term - it's location is in a general area where you would expect plenty of battles between the Dornish and their neighbors to occur.  Very possible that one of the various Dornish victories took place here, with the tower serving as some sort of joyous monument for the Dornish - someone like Ned would be very culturally detached from that history and wouldn't be expected to know any of that, regardless of his presumably substantial education levels.

[alienarea]

Or the tower long fallen reminded Rhaegar of his own tower of joy.

[corbon]

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The bullshit in this case comes from trying too hard.

On all sides. 

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The fight takes place in the open, it isn't a defence of a tower in which she's located. If it was, all the three guardsmen need to do is shut the door and hurl abuse at the 8 men parked outside.

I don;t think this logic holds. At least, its clearly not a 'defense of the tower', sure, but what value does a 'defense of the tower' hold? None, AFAICS. Ned's side can get reinforcements, the 3KG cannot.  
So if there is no value to defending the tower, what other option is there for the KG?

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

We can argue over the motives and question why three men chose to fight and die there. We can question everything, but if the argument revolves around whether the words and the actions of those involved lead [inescapably or otherwise] to the proposition that they were protecting the rightful high king of Westeros, then so be it, but there are many and more plausible scenarios around that which don't require equally pointless architectural gymnastics.

Sure. 
And we get to follow our own logic chains (which works better if they are actually logic) and think of our own plausible scenarios and then judge for ourselves what we think is most likely the truth.

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The three guardsmen and five of Lord Eddard's friends died outside an old tower in a fight that should never have happened, somehow that fight was connected with Lyanna in a significant way [otherwise GRRM wouldn't have written the passage as he did], but resolution of that connection doesn't require her actual presence at that particular location

Agreed.
IMO other things require her presence there than those men dying in a pointless fight. Clearly, others think differently. I've been utterly unimpressed by their arguments to date. So be it. Undoubtedly I have things wrong as well as things right. Doesn't change my best assessment at this time being my best assessment at this time.

7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The significance of the tower may very well have had nothing to do with habitation.  It could have been merely a landmark a place to meet up. (Personally I suspect it may be more a furnace than a residence). 

Its possible, yes. I think other things counter-indicate this, but its still possible.

What makes you think it was a furnace?

7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

After all, we may have been given a hint that if the Kingsguards were going to stay somewhere any length of time, they would have probably set up a camp:

None of which seems to fit our tower.  It didn't seem terribly defensible and the fact that Ned could pull it down himself doesn't seem that it would be a habitation that Arthur would have approved of.

There is a huge difference in function and purpose, and therefore form, between a military camp for an army of 10,000 men and a camp/location for a tiny group of people who are effectively hiding from everyone.
I don't see this as a valid point.

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The problem I have is the tower, just being a meeting place for this duel, is why would Rhaegar have named it the tower of joy?  Rhaegar couldn't have forseen this encounter prior to his death, and if he could, where is the joy in this duel for Rhaegar?

Agreed.

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Of course one knee jerk reaction is that this is Rhaegar's Joyous Gard, where he secretes Lyanna.  I think many of us have our suspicions about this. 

I doubt Rhaegar has the Arthurian literature to make the parallel with the name. And I think GRRM using the name as a parallel just because, without giving Rhaegar a reason to call it that... is not worthy of discussion (which doesn't stop discussion, I'm just indicating my disdain for that particular sub-idea). Find a good reason, great, wonderful symbolism/homagery.

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Ned pulling the tower down by himself, and the very location of this tower in the Prince's Pass should raise skepticism that this was a long term hideaway for Lyanna.  

I disagree that skepticism is warranted.
I think you vastly under-estimate the capabilities of a trained military man with a few resources (eg rope, maybe a crowbar or similar weapon) and a number of horses on a small tower.
I think the location midway through the Princes Pass (Wide Way), not close to any major holdfast, not usually inhabited, points to it likely (certainly possibly, likely being my personal judgement based on the factors we know and/or suspect) being an observation tower built during the times when there were regular wars, raids, and armies travelling through the area. 
Such a tower would be habitable by a small group, have good observation over the surrounding area, yet not likely be exactly on the main routes of travel (which rarely pass through the best high places to get wide observation), so relatively private. It would not be built with defense as a primary purpose and wouldn't take too much to pull down.
So far I see nothing that suggests anything contrary to this.

[QhorinQuarterhand]

10 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The bullshit in this case comes from trying too hard.

Strip back Lord Eddard's dream and the circumstances in which he dreams it...

Its triggered by a set of unnecessary deaths - some of them of friends - and the dream itself is about another fight which he plainly regards as having been unnecessary and even pointless. 

Its associated, somehow, with the death of his sister Lyanna, but she isn't part of the fight. She dies in child-bed, in a room and there are others present ["they"]. The fight takes place in the open, it isn't a defence of a tower in which she's located. If it was, all the three guardsmen need to do is shut the door and hurl abuse at the 8 men parked outside.

We can argue over the motives and question why three men chose to fight and die there. We can question everything, but if the argument revolves around whether the words and the actions of those involved lead [inescapably or otherwise] to the proposition that they were protecting the rightful high king of Westeros, then so be it, but there are many and more plausible scenarios around that which don't require equally pointless architectural gymnastics.

The three guardsmen and five of Lord Eddard's friends died outside an old tower in a fight that should never have happened, somehow that fight was connected with Lyanna in a significant way [otherwise GRRM wouldn't have written the passage as he did], but resolution of that connection doesn't require her actual presence at that particular location

I agree with everything except the non canon fan theory that Lyanna died in child bed. 

[Lady Dyanna]

On 4/22/2020 at 8:54 PM, LynnS said:

Hello LD.  Are you working as a care worker by chance or working front line for Covid-19?  

No. I haven’t been able to work for about 5 years now because of my health. 

My (almost Ex) husband is a nurse too though. Been lucky so far. He hasn’t had any cases yet where he works. Just one false positive test result, thankfully. 

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

No. I haven’t been able to work for about 5 years now because of my health. 

My (almost Ex) husband is a nurse too though. Been lucky so far. He hasn’t had any cases yet where he works. Just one false positive test result, thankfully. 

Sorry about your health but it's a relief that you are safe, relatively speaking.   I've been thinking about you and Wolfmaid.   Bless your husband.  My brother is a paramedic but he's working on a strategy team with health officials.  

[Black Crow]

Returning for a moment to the tower. In terms of how its conceived its worth looking at how the Mummers' version played out

That was a tower worthy of the name, with the necessary accommodation and presumably the equally necessary stores and conveniencies. You can argue that it was too big, but in terms of a hideaway for a period of several months its actually not far off the mark. 

Now demolish that using one big man, one halfling crannogman and some horses - just to build some stone cairns on a rocky hillside

[corbon]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Now demolish that using one big man, one halfling crannogman and some horses - just to build some stone cairns on a rocky hillside

Not just to build cairns. Also so that there is less for people to see from the road and randomly come visit. I don;t believe anyone is intended to ever see those cairns, for example.

I expect Ned is effectively a trained military engineer - its his job as a Lord to know a considerable amount about how to build, and to destroy, castles, fortresses, and towers. Given free access, up to a dozen horses, maybe even a fire, I believe its a lot easier than you'd expect to make even a tower that big fall down, at least enough.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Returning for a moment to the tower. In terms of how its conceived its worth looking at how the Mummers' version played out

That was a tower worthy of the name, with the necessary accommodation and presumably the equally necessary stores and conveniencies. You can argue that it was too big, but in terms of a hideaway for a period of several months its actually not far off the mark. 

Now demolish that using one big man, one halfling crannogman and some horses - just to build some stone cairns on a rocky hillside

Sorry for going off-topic.  The show's version of the tower was meant to serve their narrative that Lyanna was in the tower, so they found a location for that purpose.  That 'fort' doesn't fit my image of the tower of joy.  To my mind, a better example would be the kind of medieval tower found in Ireland.  Some of them are in such bad repair, that they are crumbling down on their own.  That's the problem isn't it.  We don't have much of a description of the tower to really say anything about what it was, how old it was, what kind of state it was in. We know where it was located. We don't know what the local called it. We know that Ned, Howland and some horses pulled it down and used stones from it to build some cairns.  To my mind, that puts the tower or round house or watchtower  in a precarious state.   I don't imagine the stones used for the cairns were too big, heavy or bulky to move around even with horses and rope or chains.  Ropes and/or chains; is that something you would bring with you to a fight?  How do you pull down a tower exactly?

We also don't know why the 3 KG were there, but I subscribe to your views that it was a pre-determined meeting place and the battle that took place was a form of trial by combat or something that was conducted by a specific set of rules.  A last stand by the KG who would not turn their cloaks or submit to Robert the Usurper.

ETA: As to why the KG would do this, it comes down to the holy oaths they made to Aerys and that they are still bound by them even after his death.  Brienne says as much about her vows to Catelyn and the reason why she continues to pursue them even after Catelyn is dead.  Brienne says something to the effect that her vows to the dead are even more binding and that she is not released from them.  

Was Lyanna in the tower dying in childbed?  I doubt it.  I don't know when or where Lyanna died. But I do think Jon was at Starfall when Ned returned the dawn sword.

As for what Howland knows; I suspect that has more to do with the circumstances of Ser Arthur's death and Ned's thoughts that "if it wasn't for Howland, Ser Arthur would have killed him" and how and why the confrontation took place.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

We know where it was located

We actually cannot confirm (using canon) where the tower was located. Placing it in the Prince's Pass in Dorne requires stitching together a series of conclusions. I remember when The Lands of Ice and Fire came out and people were so excited that the tower of joy was found on a map. 

Ned is the only character that mentions the tower. His dream about facing the three Kingsguard does have the red mountains in the distance, but Ned compared the dream to real life noting what was the same "as in life" and what was not. We can argue all day about which elements were the same as in life and which were not, but one thing we can all agree on is that not everything was the same.

Duncan the Tall had a dream eerily similar to Ned's, and when Dunc woke up he thought to himself:

Quote

His head was pounding, and he could not forget the dream he dreamed the night before. It never happened that way, he tried to tell himself. It wasn’t like that. Chestnut had died on the long dry ride to Vaith, that part was true. He and Egg rode double until Egg’s brother gave them Maester. The rest of it, though…

 

[Frey family reunion]

16 hours ago, corbon said:

What makes you think it was a furnace?

You know how some readers (and HBO producers) have  concocted a story in their mind of Rhaegar annulling his marriage with Elia and marrying Lyanna?  Well my headspace fiction involves Rhaegar and company rounding up bastard children with kingsblood to include them in a fiery sacrifice with his son, with the plan to hatch a dragon egg and transfer his kid's consciousness into a dragon.  

It's not as crazy as it seems.  Well actually it is, but I do have a sort of workable theory about it.  But it takes a while to get into.

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

Sorry for going off-topic.  The show's version of the tower was meant to serve their narrative that Lyanna was in the tower, so they found a location for that purpose.  That 'fort' doesn't fit my image of the tower of joy.  To my mind, a better example would be the kind of medieval tower found in Ireland.  Some of them are in such bad repair, that they are crumbling down on their own.  That's the problem isn't it.  We don't have much of a description of the tower to really say anything about what it was, how old it was, what kind of state it was in. We know where it was located. We don't know what the local called it. We know that Ned, Howland and some horses pulled it down and used stones from it to build some cairns.  To my mind, that puts the tower or round house or watchtower  in a precarious state.   I don't imagine the stones used for the cairns were too big, heavy or bulky to move around even with horses and rope or chains.  Ropes and/or chains; is that something you would bring with you to a fight?  How do you pull down a tower exactly?

We also don't know why the 3 KG were there, but I subscribe to your views that it was a pre-determined meeting place and the battle that took place was a form of trial by combat or something that was conducted by a specific set of rules.  A last stand by the KG who would not turn their cloaks or submit to Robert the Usurper.

ETA: As to why the KG would do this, it comes down to the holy oaths they made to Aerys and that they are still bound by them even after his death.  Brienne says as much about her vows to Catelyn and the reason why she continues to pursue them even after Catelyn is dead.  Brienne says something to the effect that her vows to the dead are even more binding and that she is not released from them.  

Was Lyanna in the tower dying in childbed?  I doubt it.  I don't know when or where Lyanna died. But I do think Jon was at Starfall when Ned returned the dawn sword.

As for what Howland knows; I suspect that has more to do with the circumstances of Ser Arthur's death and Ned's thoughts that "if it wasn't for Howland, Ser Arthur would have killed him" and how and why the confrontation took place.

Exactly so, which is precisely why I referenced the show. The mummers started off with the premise that Lyanna was lodged within [and had been there for some time] so "presented" a suitable building. To give them their due they made a pretty good job of it, but in doing so they also very graphically demonstrated how incompatible that premise is with what GRRM has actually written.

As I said earlier, I think that there's no doubt that GRRM wrote that passage to link the fight with the death of Lyanna Stark, but as GRRM also said, dreams are not always literal and the link does not require her to be parked inside or to draw certain conclusions from her supposed physical presence.

 

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, corbon said:

Not just to build cairns. Also so that there is less for people to see from the road and randomly come visit. I don;t believe anyone is intended to ever see those cairns, for example.

I expect Ned is effectively a trained military engineer - its his job as a Lord to know a considerable amount about how to build, and to destroy, castles, fortresses, and towers. Given free access, up to a dozen horses, maybe even a fire, I believe its a lot easier than you'd expect to make even a tower that big fall down, at least enough.

There is nothing anywhere in the texts to suggest Lord Eddard wanted to hide the tower and discourage pilgrims. On the contrary, we're specifically told that the tower was taken down and used to raise cairns over the dead - when it wouls have been a lot easier to dig graves.

As to Lord Eddard being a trained military engineer. No. Mediaeval warlords were only rarely knowledgable about that sort of thing, which is why they hired professional engineers.

On the other hand I'm personally familiar with mediaeval castles and in another existence was indeed professionally trained in the destructive arts [I was also pretty good at building improvised bridges and the like, but that's neither here nor there], and on the basis of that, I'll re-iterate that taking down an old and perhaps crumbling watchtower is one thing. Removing a substantial tower-house, even with the aid of a bit of arson, is a very different matter

[LynnS]

40 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

As I said earlier, I think that there's no doubt that GRRM wrote that passage to link the fight with the death of Lyanna Stark, but as GRRM also said, dreams are not always literal and the link does not require her to be parked inside or to draw certain conclusions from her supposed physical presence.

My tinfoil on the link between the toj/Lyanna and Ned's dream has something to do with Ser Arthur and some kind of role he played concerning Lyanna and keeping Jon safe at Starfall.  Perhaps even a conversation between Ned and Ser Arthur at the toj.   I think Ned has a reason to be grateful to Ser Arthur, the best knight he ever knew.  Possibly why killing Ser Arthur leaves such bitter memories of that confrontation.  I suspect Arthur was a true knight where Lyanna was concerned.

As to where Lyanna died;  I'm sticking with the Quiet Isle at this point. 

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

You know how some readers (and HBO producers) have  concocted a story in their mind of Rhaegar annulling his marriage with Elia and marrying Lyanna?  Well my headspace fiction involves Rhaegar and company rounding up bastard children with kingsblood to include them in a fiery sacrifice with his son, with the plan to hatch a dragon egg and transfer his kid's consciousness into a dragon.  

It's not as crazy as it seems.  Well actually it is, but I do have a sort of workable theory about it.  But it takes a while to get into.

Well there is precedence that Targaryens used fire in their attempts to hatch dragon eggs, and I suspect “dragonseed”.

[St Daga]

4 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Ned is the only character that mentions the tower.

One reason that Ned is the only one who mentions it is because supposedly, beside Howland, the rest of the people there died, leaving no tales to tell. Technically, Cersei does mention a holdfast in Dorne in regards to some mystery she thinks Ned is hiding. The holdfast that Cersei hints about could also be the tower that Ned thinks and dreams of. The wiki defines holdfasts as either solitary or surrounded by villages or towns, smaller than a castle, and can be built of timber or stone. I think a round or square towerhouse could fit this description, as well as a military watch tower, which would indicate very few rooms, perhaps one per floor. I think the biggest holdfast that is described is Maegor's Holdfast, and I know that is a tower that you have focused on. Actually the fact that Maegor's Holdfast is a tower is a clear link between the two ideas. This information on holdfasts also includes basic ringforts, smaller towers built by the First Men, stronger fortifications built by the Andals. We have a couple examples of abandoned holdfasts. Jon see's one in the north, technically Bran and Co. stay in a tower keep holdfast at Queenscrown. We have many towers that could also fit the description of a holdfast, and one doesn't disclude the other.  My guess is what ever it was wasn't very large, your theory includes one of the largest towers in the Seven Kingdoms. My tinfoil is that the tower was a tor, probably made of granite but it could be other substances, but a tor is a darn hard thing to destroy. It's possible the tower was built on a tor, however.

And it was pointed out upthread that tor means tower. In my mind, I also picture Glastonbury Tor, which has a tower built on the tor, St. Michaels tower, and that place and imagery is tied to the legend of King Arthur.  Honestly, even St. Michaels seems too big for a man (or two) to tear down, but if fires is used to help weaken the wood and mortor, then perhaps that would help ease the tower down. Then those stones could be used for cairns. One of the reasons I have focused on this place and imagery is because in myth, it hints at the King Arthur legend, and in this story, parts of Ser Arthur's story and his special sword, seem like they could be hints to the Arthur legends. Some claims link Glastonbury Tor to Avalon, the place of King Arthur's burial. In Ned's dream, he associates the tower with Arthur Dayne and in his memories, he associates that tower with the building of cairns to honor the dead, one of whom could be SAD.

[St Daga]

On 4/19/2020 at 7:46 AM, St Daga said:

 

On 4/19/2020 at 5:45 AM, LynnS said:

This is the quote about the frozen hell reserved for all Starks:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard IV

Outside, wagons and riders were still pouring through the castle gates, and the yard was a chaos of mud and horseflesh and shouting men. The king had not yet arrived, he was told. Since the ugliness on the Trident, the Starks and their household had ridden well ahead of the main column, the better to separate themselves from the Lannisters and the growing tension. Robert had hardly been seen; the talk was he was traveling in the huge wheelhouse, drunk as often as not. If so, he might be hours behind, but he would still be here too soon for Ned's liking. He had only to look at Sansa's face to feel the rage twisting inside him once again. The last fortnight of their journey had been a misery. Sansa blamed Arya and told her that it should have been Nymeria who died. And Arya was lost after she heard what had happened to her butcher's boy. Sansa cried herself to sleep, Arya brooded silently all day long, and Eddard Stark dreamed of a frozen hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell.

 

Reserved: kept specifically for a particular purpose or person.

I tend to set the Lords aside as more important, with their statues and stone wolves and iron swords, but you are correct that this quote seems to include all Stark's, and we do know from Ned's first POV that burial places have been set aside for him and his children. Ned does seem to shy away from that thought, though is it because he just doesn't want to think of death for himself or his kids, or if it's because he understands they have a role to serve in death that might not be part of any paradise. 

@LynnS, I keep focusing on this idea, and am so glad that you thought of Dante's 9th hell. Besides the quite interesting ties to the Stark's and Dante's 9th circle and even his center of hell, is the idea of  how nine might tie to the Starks. We know that the ancient crown of the kings of winter was said to be a bronze circlet with nine iron spikes shaped like longswords. We don't really know why it's nine spikes/longswords, but perhaps this idea of nine swords  is GRRM hinting to nine (or the (9th Circle of Hell) to tie to the Starks? I also have felt that the circle of nine weirwoods north of the wall, where Jon takes his vows, is also linked to the ancient Starks. Ironic that the place in the story is also linked to the Others, or at least the wights, since this is near where Othor and Jaffer's bodies were found. I was thinking about nines in the story, and when Arya is at Harrenhal, Roose goes hunting and comes back with nine wolfs he orders skinned and made into a covering for his bed (or himself, I swear). I have thought the numbers have to symbolize something, but I was more focused on seven adult wolfs and two pups, but perhaps this total of nine is another hint to the Stark connection with the number nine? 

Also, perhaps if seven is a number tied to the Andals and people of Andal descent, as well as the Faith, then perhaps nine is tied, not just to the Starks (although that is where these clues seem to lead) to the First Men and the old gods? 

[LynnS]

10 minutes ago, St Daga said:

My tinfoil is that the tower was a tor, probably made of granite but it could be other substances, but a tor is a darn hard thing to destroy. It's possible the tower was built on a tor, however.    

I'm wondering if the red cliffs of Dorne are sandstone and the toj was made from available material nearby.   

[LynnS]

11 minutes ago, St Daga said:

@LynnS, I keep focusing on this idea, and am so glad that you thought of Dante's 9th hell. Besides the quite interesting ties to the Stark's and Dante's 9th circle and even his center of hell, is the idea of  how nine might tie to the Starks. We know that the ancient crown of the kings of winter was said to be a bronze circlet with nine iron spikes shaped like longswords. We don't really know why it's nine spikes/longswords, but perhaps this idea of nine swords  is GRRM hinting to nine (or the (9th Circle of Hell) to tie to the Starks? I also have felt that the circle of nine weirwoods north of the wall, where Jon takes his vows, is also linked to the ancient Starks. Ironic that the place in the story is also linked to the Others, or at least the wights, since this is near where Othor and Jaffer's bodies were found. I was thinking about nines in the story, and when Arya is at Harrenhal, Roose goes hunting and comes back with nine wolfs he orders skinned and made into a covering for his bed (or himself, I swear). I have thought the numbers have to symbolize something, but I was more focused on seven adult wolfs and two pups, but perhaps this total of nine is another hint to the Stark connection with the number nine? 

Also, perhaps if seven is a number tied to the Andals and people of Andal descent, as well as the Faith, then perhaps nine is tied, not just to the Starks (although that is where these clues seem to lead) to the First Men and the old gods? 

I think there is a connection between the crown of the King of Winter and the weirwood grove.  I'm just not sure what that implies.  There is a trope called the trinitiy of trinities and we know GRRM is making a thing out of 'threes' and multiples of threes.  Here's the rule of three trope.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfThree

I haven't explored it much but there might be something here.

Quote

 

"Just the place for a Snark! I have said it twice:
That alone should encourage the crew.
Just the place for a Snark! I have said it thrice:
What I tell you three times is true."

— Lewis Carroll, The Hunting of the Snark

 

 

 

 

[Melifeather]

27 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Cersei does mention a holdfast in Dorne in regards to some mystery she thinks Ned is hiding.

This is what Cersei said:

 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII

"Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"