Heresy 230 and die Herren von Winterfell

[St Daga]

32 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm wondering if the red cliffs of Dorne are sandstone and the toj was made from available material nearby.   

This is certainly possible, and sandstone would be easier to tear down than granite. Granite does come in shades of red, however, so I don't discount that, although I recognize there are no mentions of red granite in this story, only grey and black.

 

18 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think there is a connection between the crown of the King of Winter and the weirwood grove.  I'm just not sure what that implies.  There is a trope called the trinitiy of trinities and we know GRRM is making a thing out of 'threes' and multiples of threes.  Here's the rule of three trope.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfThree

I haven't explored it much but there might be something here.

Quote

 

"Just the place for a Snark! I have said it twice:
That alone should encourage the crew.
Just the place for a Snark! I have said it thrice:
What I tell you three times is true."

— Lewis Carroll, The Hunting of the Snark

 

 

I will have to glance at the trope when I have more time. Thanks for the link. The Carroll quote is interesting. It's easy for me to read Stark instead of Snark. A place for a Stark indeed.

Well, three and three is certainly nine. What if we get three special Stark's three generation in a row?

[St Daga]

19 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

This is what Cersei said:

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII

"Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"

 

Yes. And since a burning holdfast/tower is part of her accusation, I am remined that it might make the remains of that holdfast/tower easier to tear down. Now, I don't think that Cersei is 100% correct, because most of what she thinks is flavored with some truth and then distorted in her mind (although it's easier to recognize once we have her POV). Since Ned Stark doesn't seem like a rapist of peasants, then this is the part that I imagine that Cersei has distorted.  But the question she is asking is still tied to possible mother's for Ned's bastard. Now, Cersei seems to be talking about Jon Snow, but it's possible that Ned has a different bastard, also. We also have odd hints of Ashara with a child, but not the still born girl that Barristan thinks of, but possibly a stolen son. I just think there is truth within the clues, the hard part is figuring out what is truth and what is not.

[Tyryan Lannister]

3 hours ago, St Daga said:

Yes. And since a burning holdfast/tower is part of her accusation, I am remined that it might make the remains of that holdfast/tower easier to tear down. Now, I don't think that Cersei is 100% correct, because most of what she thinks is flavored with some truth and then distorted in her mind (although it's easier to recognize once we have her POV). Since Ned Stark doesn't seem like a rapist of peasants, then this is the part that I imagine that Cersei has distorted.  But the question she is asking is still tied to possible mother's for Ned's bastard. Now, Cersei seems to be talking about Jon Snow, but it's possible that Ned has a different bastard, also. We also have odd hints of Ashara with a child, but not the still born girl that Barristan thinks of, but possibly a stolen son. I just think there is truth within the clues, the hard part is figuring out what is truth and what is not.

A corollary to that is also the fact that everything to do with the tower et al is based on unreliable narration.  Yes, we have no reason to believe that Ned is lying to us nor himself - however, he is comparing a dream (already very unreliable in terms of narrative truth) with a, what, 15 year old memory? 

Memory is a fickle thing, and the longer removed one is from the event, the more likely the memories of the event are to be subconsciously tainted by one's own biases of the event. 

Couple all of this with GRRM's penchant for POV-biased narration, and you have the recipe for a giant who-the-hell-knows mess.

As you state, the hard part is figuring out what is or isn't truth.  Unfortunately for this particular event and place, everything is currently circumstantial at best.

[corbon]

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

There is nothing anywhere in the texts to suggest Lord Eddard wanted to hide the tower and discourage pilgrims.

No, there isn't. Only that no one else seems to know anything about the place. And that Ned never went back, nor told anyone where it was, nor sent anyone back.
You don;t have to believe that it was a motivation, but its one that fits and nothing that goes against it.

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

On the contrary, we're specifically told that the tower was taken down and used to raise cairns over the dead - when it wouls have been a lot easier to dig graves.

Surely that depends on the ground available. We don't know how easy it was to dig graves. 
We also don't know how hard it would be do build small cairns using the rocks fro the tower that you pulled down for other reasons. SO stating it 'would be a lot easier to dig graves' simply isn't warranted.

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

As to Lord Eddard being a trained military engineer. No. Mediaeval warlords were only rarely knowledgable about that sort of thing, which is why they hired professional engineers.

Have we seen any?

Was Brandon the Builder a Stark Lord or a Professional Engineer?

Young Brandon was slated to raise castles as an option now he can't be a knight. So was he going to train as a professional engineer, or as a lordling who had tasks other than just fighting and leading?

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

On the other hand I'm personally familiar with mediaeval castles and in another existence was indeed professionally trained in the destructive arts [I was also pretty good at building improvised bridges and the like, but that's neither here nor there], and on the basis of that, I'll re-iterate that taking down an old and perhaps crumbling watchtower is one thing. Removing a substantial tower-house, even with the aid of a bit of arson, is a very different matter

This isn't a castle, or a tower-house. Its likely a watchtower. What else would be in the middle of nowhere in the Princes Pass?

[Black Crow]

7 hours ago, corbon said:

This isn't a castle, or a tower-house. Its likely a watchtower. What else would be in the middle of nowhere in the Princes Pass?

we can certainly agree on that, which is exactly why I've been arguing that it served as a landmark for a formal rencounter, rather than a romantic hideaway for star-crossed lovers - who really would have required a substantial tower house of the kind shown by the mummers in order to accommodate the happy couple and "they" over a period of months.

[LynnS]

18 hours ago, St Daga said:

This is certainly possible, and sandstone would be easier to tear down than granite. Granite does come in shades of red, however, so I don't discount that, although I recognize there are no mentions of red granite in this story, only grey and black.

I will have to glance at the trope when I have more time. Thanks for the link. The Carroll quote is interesting. It's easy for me to read Stark instead of Snark. A place for a Stark indeed.

Well, three and three is certainly nine. What if we get three special Stark's three generation in a row?

I think we know something about grumkins.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Arya IX

Jaqen still owed her one death. In Old Nan's stories about men who were given magic wishes by a grumkin, you had to be especially careful with the third wish, because it was the last. Chiswyck and Weese hadn't been very important. The last death has to count, Arya told herself every night when she whispered her names. But now she wondered if that was truly the reason she had hesitated. So long as she could kill with a whisper, Arya need not be afraid of anyone . . . but once she used up the last death, she would only be a mouse again.

It's not a stretch for me to make Snark into Stark.  Coldhands?

ETA:  Just to point out some similarities between Jaqen and Coldhands… Jaqen offers Arya three death wishes for saving his life and his two cellmates in the death for life exchange.  Three deaths for three lives.  While Coldhands does the same with Sam.  He insists that Sam swear a binding oath three times (to Bran, Jojen and Coldhands) in exchange for the lives he saved: Sam, Gilly, infant.  Another three for three.  

 

[alienarea]

You don't put just a tower in the middle of nowhere. It needs to have well, a place for some horses, a place for sleeping. In my opinion it's maybe an ancient watchtower on the border of Dorne that serve at a stopover location since Dorne joined the seven kingdoms.

[corbon]

5 hours ago, alienarea said:

You don't put just a tower in the middle of nowhere. It needs to have well, a place for some horses, a place for sleeping. In my opinion it's maybe an ancient watchtower on the border of Dorne that serve at a stopover location since Dorne joined the seven kingdoms.

You put watchtowers at high points where they can see far, see across the whole Wide Way, give maximum warning for enemies coming.

Such high points are not usually where the easy road is, likely near the middle of the broad Wide Way.

I agree there's likely a well, a place to keep horses, a place for sleeping, for a small crew. But not likely on the main route through the Wide Way.

[LynnS]

The maps are supposed to be canon:

http://www.fantasticmaps.com/2015/05/where-is-dorne/

[Melifeather]

57 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The maps are supposed to be canon:

http://www.fantasticmaps.com/2015/05/where-is-dorne/

https://houseofblackandwhite.freeforums.net/post/4864/thread

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

https://houseofblackandwhite.freeforums.net/post/4864/thread

He doesn't anything about the atlas, Lands of Ice and Fire; maps which he reviewed before it was published.

ETA: Martin is talking about the World Book and the App.  When he says it's semi-canon; he is saying some is true and some is not.  Specifically, he mentions unreliable narrators.  He's just not telling us which is which.  Some of Martin's side notes are included under the nom de plume Gyldayn.  That should be considered canon.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Gyldayn

  I can accept that the tower of joy is located approximately where shown on this map and others before it.  I think depicting it as a 'house' is artistic license. 
 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

"I gave them over to the silent sisters, to be sent north to Winterfell. Jory would want to lie beside his grandfather."

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

 Building the cairns upon the ridge seems to support the idea that the tower was built on an elevated position or close to it.  I think the tower was built of material from the red mountains; hence the description bloody stones and a metaphorical description of what transpired there. 

Ned also says it's round tower and they waited with the red mountains to their backs.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

So the red mountains were some distance from the tower.

This is more like the tower that I imagine with access from the ground with a ladder.  Arya hides out in this type of round watchtower: 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Arya V

It was Gendry who thought of the lord's towerhouse and the three that Yoren had sent to hold it. They had come under attack as well, but the round tower had only one entry, a second-story door reached by a ladder. Once that had been pulled inside, Ser Amory's men could not get at them. The Lannisters had piled brush around the tower's base and set it afire, but the stone would not burn, and Lorch did not have the patience to starve them out. Cutjack opened the door at Gendry's shout, and when Kurz said they'd be better pressing on north than going back, Arya had clung to the hope that she still might reach Winterfell.

I imagine the tower of joy to be something more like this, but in a state of disrepair:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_round_tower

[Melifeather]

9 minutes ago, LynnS said:

 Building the cairns upon the ridge seems to support the idea that the tower was built on an elevated position or close to it.  I think the tower was built of material from the red mountains; hence the description bloody stones and a metaphorical description of what transpired there. 

 

The Red Keep is also built upon a hill - Aegon's Hill. Just sayin...

[LynnS]

10 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

The Red Keep is also built upon a hill - Aegon's Hill. Just sayin...

Yes, a ridge is a hill by definition.  It makes sense that the tower would be built on high ground, just not necessarily in the mountains specifically.   

[Melifeather]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes, a ridge is a hill by definition.  It makes sense that the tower would be built on high ground, just not necessarily in the mountains specifically.   

I just believe Ned's thoughts regarding the tower are more metaphoric than literal...and keeps in line with the symbolic nature of his dream - the petals blowing in the wind and all that.

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, Melifeather said:

I just believe Ned's thoughts regarding the tower are more metaphoric than literal. 

Except for the bloody stones; I think his description of the landscape is literal.

[Melifeather]

32 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Except for the bloody stones; I think his description of the landscape is literal.

That's cool. Agree to disagree. 

If and when the books are ever finished, I'm either going to be an object of ridicule or look like a genius! At least I won't be forgotten!

[alienarea]

On 4/28/2020 at 3:48 PM, LynnS said:

The maps are supposed to be canon:

http://www.fantasticmaps.com/2015/05/where-is-dorne/

Where is Starfall?

[LynnS]

55 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Where is Starfall?

Further to the left on the map, near the river and inlet.  Too far east on the enlarged map to see.

Here's an interactive map that shows the tower of joy on a ridge.

https://quartermaester.info/

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

Where is Starfall?

I think LynnS meant far west. It's near the mouth of a river emptying into the sea. You can barely make out High Hermitage to the north of it along the same river.

[LynnS]

12 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I think LynnS meant far west. It's near the mouth of a river emptying into the sea. You can barely make out High Hermitage to the north of it along the same river.

Yes, that's what I meant.  I included a link to an interactive map so you can move around the map.