Heresy 230 and die Herren von Winterfell

[Black Crow]

13 hours ago, alienarea said:

Iirc, Ned goes through the lineage books and concludes that Cersei's children aren't Robert's because all Baratheon children have black hair.

If we were to take a look at the Stark lineage, what would we find out about Jon?

 

The texts do stress Jon's characteristic Stark features

[Melifeather]

23 hours ago, St Daga said:

Even if Ashara is Jon's mother by Ned, I don't see how revealing that truth to Jon (or anyone) would lead people to think that Ashara is Wylla. But time will give us these answers eventually, or at least I hope it will. 

No, it’s the other way around. If Ashara wishes to remain living as Wylla, revealing her as Jon’s mother would generate questions and suspicions. The report that she gave birth to a stillborn daughter would be revealed as a lie and naturally lead to people questioning her death.

[Melifeather]

On 4/12/2020 at 12:56 AM, QhorinQuarterhand said:

Can it be definitively ruled out (using AGOT-ADWD) that our dearest Dany is really Visenya Targaryen, the 3rd child of Rhaegar and Elia?

Maybe Viserys should know, but can it be conclusively demonstrated that he had to have known? 

Can it be conclusively demonstrated that Elia couldn't have had a 3rd baby? 

It’s been suggested that Viserys tendency to call Daenerys “sweet” sister was indicative that he didn’t think she was his natural sister. Doesn’t Tyrion insert “sweet” sister when talking to Cersei?  That being said I don’t believe there was enough time for Elia to have a third child when Aegon was said to be about a year old, give or take a couple moons, when he was killed during the Sack. 

[Melifeather]

Man it's quiet! If you're looking for something to read, here is my latest analysis of Westworld.

[Melifeather]

Alternately, here is something strange that I came across in another thread. Is it simply a mistake or any chance it was deliberate?

 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - The Kings Prize

The northmen fared much better, with their garrons and their bear-paws. Black Donnel Flint and his half-brother Artos only lost one man between them. The Liddles, the Wulls, and the Norreys lost none at all. One of Morgan Liddle's mules had gone astray, but he seemed to think the Flints had stolen him.

 

One hundred leagues from Deepwood Motte to Winterfell. Three hundred miles as the raven flies. Fifteen days. The fifteenth day of the march came and went, and they had crossed less than half the distance. A trail of broken wayns and frozen corpses stretched back behind them, buried beneath the blowing snow. The sun and moon and stars had been gone so long that Asha was starting to wonder whether she had dreamed them.

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - The Sacrifice

"Nor I. But you had best choke down some horsemeat all the same, or you may soon wish you had. We had eight hundred horses when we marched from Deepwood Motte. Last night the count was sixty-four."

 

That did not shock her. Almost all of their big destriers had failed, including Massey's own. Most of their palfreys were gone as well. Even the garrons of the northmen were faltering for want of fodder. But what did they need horses for? Stannis was no longer marching anywhere. The sun and moon and starshad been gone so long that Asha was starting to wonder whether she had dreamed them. "I will eat."

 

 

 

 

[Frey family reunion]

On 4/9/2020 at 1:11 PM, Matthew. said:

I've considered the prospect that the consciousness within the Others might be the spirits of the weirwood--perhaps created by either performing some ritual to create a Walker body to house the spirits, or with the spirits of the wood supplanting the consciousness of a vulnerable mind (eg, Craster's sons), and the sacrificial body subsequently undergoing a transformation.

Under a line of speculation in which we link the Others, the weirwood, and the magic of the CotF, a potentially relevant question would be how broadly or narrowly we should define the consciousness that humanity worships as the "old gods;" is it just limited to greenseers that have gone into the wood? 

In particular, two things I'm taking into consideration are:
- The moment in the ADWD prologue where Varamyr's mind is disembodied before settling into One Eye. If he didn't have an animal body to settle into, would he have been drawn into weirnet?
- Lore and legend regarding spirits in the Winterfell crypts, as well as the segment of AGOT which seems to imply that Bran, Rickon, and Hodor all sense Eddard in the crypts following his execution

This is kind of the direction I'm leaning in, I think.  Perhaps, the White Walkers were created by the Weirwoods/Weirnet taking the subconscious boogeymen from the id of the human part of their collective and giving it form in the way of frozen air (snowmen).  Maybe using the souls of Craster's children to give life to their creations.  

The closest that GRRM could get to Tolkien's Ents.  This is how his trees became mobile and took up a fight against humankind.  Also the closest that GRRM could get to his favorite movie, the Forbidden Planet.

[St Daga]

On 4/12/2020 at 8:37 AM, Melifeather said:

No, it’s the other way around. If Ashara wishes to remain living as Wylla, revealing her as Jon’s mother would generate questions and suspicions. The report that she gave birth to a stillborn daughter would be revealed as a lie and naturally lead to people questioning her death.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one.   As to the information about Ashara's stillborn daughter, how openly is that information known in Westeros? Barristan is whom we hear the information about a stillborn daughter, but I think he is the only one. He loved her and might have searched to find out information about her after her "death" but I think he is the only person who thinks of her having a daughter. Cersei hints that Ned stole a child from Ashara, but it's unclear if she is talking about her being the mother of Ned's known bastard, Jon, who is obviously a son, or another child, that might be a daughter, or even what Cersei's source information is. Either way, if word is out that Ashara had a child, even subtly, then her reputation isn't really intact, but even so, I don't know how this contributes the whether people believe she is alive or dead. I would imagine that most people don't currently think about whether she is alive or dead at all. 

[St Daga]

On 4/11/2020 at 11:56 PM, QhorinQuarterhand said:

Can it be definitively ruled out (using AGOT-ADWD) that our dearest Dany is really Visenya Targaryen, the 3rd child of Rhaegar and Elia?

Maybe Viserys should know, but can it be conclusively demonstrated that he had to have known? 

Can it be conclusively demonstrated that Elia couldn't have had a 3rd baby? 

Some of my newest favorite tinfoil. In the last several months I have been pursuing the idea that Elia did indeed risk bearing a third child, even if it ultimately would mean her death. I think it's possible that Daenerys is Rhaegar and Elia's third child, that it was Elia who was snuck to Dragonstone and died giving birth there (unless that birth actually happened at the toj, which is also possible). After all, Dany's story does hint back to Dorne in some way and if her mother was from Dorne, this would make sense to me. One of the things I stumble over is Dany's eye color, which seems to be a purple violet (although I have also argued her eyes are more blue than purple but...) and that doesn't easily fit either Rhaegar's indigo eyes or Elia's brown ones. Yet, indigo is a blue plant that is known for purple dye, so perhaps that does fit both Dany and Rhaegar after all. 

I certainly think there was time for Elia to conceive again after Aegon, even if she waited six months between pregnancies, just like she did between conceiving Aegon after Rhaenys birth.

[Melifeather]

5 minutes ago, St Daga said:

We will have to agree to disagree on this one.   As to the information about Ashara's stillborn daughter, how openly is that information known in Westeros? Barristan is whom we hear the information about a stillborn daughter, but I think he is the only one. He loved her and might have searched to find out information about her after her "death" but I think he is the only person who thinks of her having a daughter. Cersei hints that Ned stole a child from Ashara, but it's unclear if she is talking about her being the mother of Ned's known bastard, Jon, who is obviously a son, or another child, that might be a daughter, or even what Cersei's source information is. Either way, if word is out that Ashara had a child, even subtly, then her reputation isn't really intact, but even so, I don't know how this contributes the whether people believe she is alive or dead. I would imagine that most people don't currently think about whether she is alive or dead at all. 

No worries! I guess I shouldn't, but I am assuming Barristan's knowledge comes from court gossip. I think it was rumored at court that Ashara was pregnant prior to the Rebellion, and then after Robert reinstalled Barristan as a Kingsguard, the stillborn daughter was court gossip. As for Cersei's words, here's the quote:

 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII

"I shall wear that as a badge of honor," Ned said dryly.

 

"Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"

 

"For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children. You would do well to listen, my lady. I shall say this only once. When the king returns from his hunt, I intend to lay the truth before him. You must be gone by then. You and your children, all three, and not to Casterly Rock. If I were you, I should take ship for the Free Cities, or even farther, to the Summer Isles or the Port of Ibben. As far as the winds blow."

 

 

 

I don't think anyone expands on the "child you stole" for an explanation, but I do believe LC Jon Snow's baby swap Monster for Aemon is an inverted parallel to whatever Ned did. I offer my theory that Jon Snow is a mirror to Jon Arryn, Samwell is a mirror to Ned, Maester Aemon is a mirror to Maester Walys, and Gilly is a mirror to "Wylla" (Ashara).

[St Daga]

On 4/9/2020 at 12:38 PM, LynnS said:

I've been wondering about Ned's dream of a frozen hell reserved for Starks.  This seems to be a reference to Dante's Inferno where the devil is frozen in the ice, in the ninth circle of hell, and has three heads devouring the worst on sinners.  This is an image of the god Trios with it's three heads comes to mind as well as weirwoods in general.

The reasons one ends up in the frozen hell are similar to the sins that the old gods do not forgive:
 

Quote

Ninth Circle (Treachery)[edit]

Dante speaks to the traitors in the ice, Canto XXXII

Canto XXXII
At the base of the well, Dante finds himself within a large frozen lake: Cocytus, the Ninth Circle of Hell. Trapped in the ice, each according to his guilt, are punished sinners guilty of treachery against those with whom they had special relationships. The lake of ice is divided into four concentric rings (or "rounds") of traitors corresponding, in order of seriousness, to betrayal of family ties, betrayal of community ties, betrayal of guests, and betrayal of lords. This is in contrast to the popular image of Hell as fiery; as Ciardi writes, "The treacheries of these souls were denials of love (which is God) and of all human warmth. Only the remorseless dead center of the ice will serve to express their natures. As they denied God's love, so are they furthest removed from the light and warmth of His Sun. As they denied all human ties, so are they bound only by the unyielding ice."[99] This final, deepest level of hell is reserved for traitors, betrayers and oathbreakers (its most famous inmate is Judas Iscariot).

  The question is why are Starks traitors, betrayers and oathbreakers?  I suspect that this will be something that is answered in tWoW. 

I think this is a really interesting line of thought to pursue, @LynnS.  It's been about thirty years since I read Dante's Inferno, and that was because it was required of a Europe Lit class, but that imagery of hell being a cold and frozen place did stick in my mind, although I have never connected it to the Stark's before. The other thing that stuck out to me is how Dante places every "pagan" into hell since they existed before the birth of Christianity. I thought it was an unfair line of thought to punish a huge portion of humanity who had no control over the time that they were born in. Hell is Icy and Dante is Unfair are my two take aways, thirty years later. Now, you have given me something to refocus on, and it does seem like something that GRRM might like to toy with.

I refreshed my mind on the 9th Circle, as well as the Center where Satan/Lucifer resides. The 9th level is for the treacherous and the four inner circles do hold to betrayers of things that I think GRRM has tied to the First Men. Betrayal of family ties, with a description of Cain killing Abel, so kinslaying a brother. Betrayal of community ties, with an example linked to the Trojen War and the betrayal of Troy. Betrayal of guests, with an example of the murder of a visitor or guest. And then betrayal of a master or liege lord, which is tied to Judas Iscariot, the betrayer of Jesus who is tied to the imagery of 30 silver coins. Silver does come up in the Stark imagery much more than gold. The 9th Circle itself is a frozen lake of ice. Ice, of course, seems strongly linked to the Starks, not just in their ancestral sword, but in the imagery of their grey, cold and sometimes icy eyes and humor. Are the Stark's stuck guarding something under Winterfell or is part of their punishment to always remain close to it?

The Center of Hell is where Satan himself resides. Satan is a beast that is described as a giant demon who is half frozen into the ice at the center of Hell. He has three faces and bat-like wings which when they beat, create a cold wind that keeps the Center and 9th Circle frigid and frozen. In out very first POV of the crypts, Ned thinks he "could feel the chill coming up the stairs, a cold breath from deep within the earth". This is quite interesting if we want to consider that something demonic, Satan-like is trapped under Winterfell, surrounded for eons by the Stark's of Winterfell. Perhaps all of the Stark Lords are serving some kind of punishment for the deeds of an ancestor and their punishment is both to guard the beast that lies below as well as to protect the rest of the world from it. Perhaps the statues of the Stark Lords are meant to mimic the beings of the 9th Circle who are paying for all eternity in the cold presence of Satan for past ill deeds, as a sort of penance. Or are they trapped their unfairly, and when and if they break free, their vengeance will be frightful?

[Melifeather]

32 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I certainly think there was time for Elia to conceive again after Aegon, even if she waited six months between pregnancies, just like she did between conceiving Aegon after Rhaenys birth.

This would be difficult to fit in considering GRRM confirmed Aegon was "about a year, give or take a moon or two" when he was killed during the Sack.

After Rhaenys birth, Elia recovered for six months before getting pregnant a second time. Aegon's birth was even more difficult. It's stated that she nearly died - which to me implies that there would be an even longer recovery period planned.

If Aegon was indeed 12 months old when he died, and Elia got pregnant with a third child three months after he was born, then Elia would be in her ninth month of pregnancy during the Sack.

If Aegon was ten months old during the Sack, then Elia would be seven months pregnant when she was raped and killed. 

If we go with your suggestion that she waited six months, Aegon would be too old to stay within GRRM's 10-14 month window. If Elia only waited three months, then Aegon would have been 13-14 months old. This would allow Elia to deliver before the Sack, but then there should also be court gossip about a third child with everyone looking for it.

King Aerys was holding Elia hostage in Maegor's Holdfast. I believe her imprisonment was guarded by Kingsguard Dayne, Whent, and Lewin. Who helped her escape and how did she get to Dragonstone, especially considering the timing just a month or two before the Sack? Did she leave before King Aerys sent Queen Rhaella to Dragonstone? If Elia and Rhaella traded places, then where did Rhaella go? Wouldn't Viserys report that Elia crowned him instead of his own mother?

[St Daga]

24 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

No worries! I guess I shouldn't, but I am assuming Barristan's knowledge comes from court gossip. I think it was rumored at court that Ashara was pregnant prior to the Rebellion, and then after Robert reinstalled Barristan as a Kingsguard, the stillborn daughter was court gossip.

Well, Barristan's information might come from court gossip, after all, the man has been tied to court for most of his adult life. I just have questioned how well known that concept of Ashara having a child of any sort, let alone stillborn, really is. Something that GRRM has certainly been vague about, which gives us room to speculate. There is also that song that Arya hears about a woman who throws herself from a tower over the fact that her prince is dead. Now, this prince could be a child, but would indicate a male child, or the prince was a lover. Neither hints at a daughter, but who knows how much a bard might alter a story to suit their audience.  This song might also not have anything to do with Ashara.

 

[St Daga]

6 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

After Rhaenys birth, Elia recovered for six months before getting pregnant a second time. Aegon's birth was even more difficult. It's stated that she nearly died - which to me implies that there would be an even longer recovery period planned.

If Aegon was indeed 12 months old when he died, and Elia got pregnant with a third child three months after he was born, then Elia would be in her ninth month of pregnancy during the Sack.

If Aegon was ten months old during the Sack, then Elia would be seven months pregnant when she was raped and killed. 

If we go with your suggestion that she waited six months, Aegon would be too old to stay within GRRM's 10-14 month window. If Elia only waited three months, then Aegon would have been 13-14 months old. This would allow Elia to deliver before the Sack, but then there should also be court gossip about a third child with everyone looking for it.

It's hard to say when Elia might have tried to conceive again. I think she would have to let her body heal, so at least another six months after birth. But then it might depend on when Rhaegar was available to fulfill his husbandly duties. I have said for years that we focus on the timeline more than GRRM ever has, and I don't think timeline is his strong suit. Anyway, Elia didn't have to be known to be pregnant at court to actually be pregnant. And she might have been safely away from KL before this information was known. After all, wasn't Elia's head crushed, much like Oberyn's, so the body might have been hard to positively identify, much as we are told about Prince Aegon's crushed head.

8 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

King Aerys was holding Elia hostage in Maegor's Holdfast. I believe her imprisonment was guarded by Kingsguard Dayne, Whent, and Lewin. Who helped her escape and how did she get to Dragonstone, especially considering the timing just a month or two before the Sack? Did she leave before King Aerys sent Queen Rhaella to Dragonstone? If Elia and Rhaella traded places, then where did Rhaella go? Wouldn't Viserys report that Elia crowned him instead of his own mother?

My thought is that Elia was smuggled out of the Red Keep and that is who Jaime saw leaving in the dark, cloaked and hard to recognize. He thinks it was Rhaella but he could be wrong. And if Elia was truly imprisoned in a tower, then how many people saw her often enough to know if it was truly she who was held captive. Although she would have had to have been there at some time for she and Rhaegar to conceive a third child. 

I think that information about Viserys being crowned by Rhaella comes from the app and since I don't consider that canon, I don't have to try to fit it into my thoughts. 

My initial thoughts months and months ago are tied to the information that Dany has been told about her mother. Her mother who died giving birth to her. Yet what we know of Rhaella is a woman who had many pregnancies and births, and though she lost children, we are never told that she was ever at risk of death from any of these pregnancies or deliveries. Yet we are flat out told that a third child would kill Elia Martell. And Dany was born to a mother who died. It just seems to fit Elia better than Rhaella, at least for me. I really can't decide if Dany was born to Elia on Dragonstone or if it was in Dorne in the "tower of joy". Dany's birth was surrounded by a storm that knocked gargoyles off a castle yet we hear of no major damage to Dragonstone. Yet something happened at the toj which made it a building that Ned could pull down with his own hands and build some cairns out of. I'm leaning toward the toj for Dany's birthplace, which fits the image of the storm imagery in Ned's dream as well as Dany's nickname of Stormborn. 

I might be quite wrong about all of this, but I find the idea intriguing. 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

My thought is that Elia was smuggled out of the Red Keep and that is who Jaime saw leaving in the dark, cloaked and hard to recognize. He thinks it was Rhaella but he could be wrong. And if Elia was truly imprisoned in a tower, then how many people saw her often enough to know if it was truly she who was held captive. Although she would have had to have been there at some time for she and Rhaegar to conceive a third child. 

As far as I can tell, only Aegon's head was "dashed". Elia was put to the sword.

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard VII

Unlike his brother, Ser Gregor did not live at court. He was a solitary man who seldom left his own lands, but for wars and tourneys. He had been with Lord Tywin when King's Landing fell, a new-made knight of seventeen years, even then distinguished by his size and his implacable ferocity. Some said it had been Gregor who'd dashed the skull of the infant prince Aegon Targaryen against a wall, and whispered that afterward he had raped the mother, the Dornish princess Elia, before putting her to the sword. These things were not said in Gregor's hearing.

 

 

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

I think that information about Viserys being crowned by Rhaella comes from the app and since I don't consider that canon, I don't have to try to fit it into my thoughts. 

Oh yippee. Another non-canon, semi-canon at best, "fact".

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

My initial thoughts months and months ago are tied to the information that Dany has been told about her mother. Her mother who died giving birth to her. Yet what we know of Rhaella is a woman who had many pregnancies and births, and though she lost children, we are never told that she was ever at risk of death from any of these pregnancies or deliveries. Yet we are flat out told that a third child would kill Elia Martell. And Dany was born to a mother who died. It just seems to fit Elia better than Rhaella, at least for me. I really can't decide if Dany was born to Elia on Dragonstone or if it was in Dorne in the "tower of joy". Dany's birth was surrounded by a storm that knocked gargoyles off a castle yet we hear of no major damage to Dragonstone. Yet something happened at the toj which made it a building that Ned could pull down with his own hands and build some cairns out of. I'm leaning toward the toj for Dany's birthplace, which fits the image of the storm imagery in Ned's dream as well as Dany's nickname of Stormborn. 

Personally I see no reason to doubt Daenerys is Aerys and Rhaella's third child to live to maturity. It fulfills the phrase, "child of three" which seems to be a necessary ingredient for hatching dragons. Barristan thinks Daenerys looks like his crush, Ashara, and isn't Jorah Mormont's infatuation of Daenerys seem to be fueled by her likeness to Lynesse Hightower? 

I agree that it's hard to believe that Rhaella, who gave birth to so many children, would end up dying in childbirth, so that is why I tend to believe she is Lady Lemore. I think she risked the safety of Viserys and Daenerys in order to care for the heir apparent and her grandson Aegon. 

I think it's possible Daenerys was born a lot earlier than generally accepted, and that the storm that destroyed most of the Targaryen fleet (and toppled gargoyles) was the same storm that raged when she was born, placing her birth prior to Rhaegar's defeat and death at the Trident. 

I know, I know, same old arguments - no new information. One good thing about this pandemic is that GRRM is confined and working on Winds! Maybe the truth is in sight!

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

As far as I can tell, only Aegon's head was "dashed". Elia was put to the sword.

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard VII

Unlike his brother, Ser Gregor did not live at court. He was a solitary man who seldom left his own lands, but for wars and tourneys. He had been with Lord Tywin when King's Landing fell, a new-made knight of seventeen years, even then distinguished by his size and his implacable ferocity. Some said it had been Gregor who'd dashed the skull of the infant prince Aegon Targaryen against a wall, and whispered that afterward he had raped the mother, the Dornish princess Elia, before putting her to the sword. These things were not said in Gregor's hearing.

 

 

Yet another inconsistency in the text. Gregor admits to smashing her head, just as he does to Oberyn.

Quote

"Elia of Dorne," they all heard Ser Gregor say, when they were close enough to kiss. His deep voice boomed within the helm. "I killed her screaming whelp." He thrust his free hand into Oberyn's unprotected face, pushing steel fingers into his eyes. "Then I raped her." Clegane slammed his fist into the Dornishman's mouth, making splinters of his teeth. "Then I smashed her fucking head in. Like this." As he drew back his huge fist, the blood on his gauntlet seemed to smoke in the cold dawn air. There was a sickening crunch. Ellaria Sand wailed in terror, and Tyrion's breakfast came boiling back up. He found himself on his knees retching bacon and sausage and applecakes, and that double helping of fried eggs cooked up with onions and fiery Dornish peppers. ASOS-Tyrion X

IF this is true, then it might have been difficult to identify her remains. It's also possible Gregor just said this because he was very angry and there isn't any truth to his confession.  Did Ned ever see Elia's body? He talks as if he remembers only the childrens bodies. If he saw Elia's body, he doesn't specify it.

Quote

Yet last night he had dreamt of Rhaegar's children. Lord Tywin had laid the bodies beneath the Iron Throne, wrapped in the crimson cloaks of his house guard. That was clever of him; the blood did not show so badly against the red cloth. The little princess had been barefoot, still dressed in her bed gown, and the boy … the boy …  AGOT-Eddard XII

 

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

One good thing about this pandemic is that GRRM is confined and working on Winds! Maybe the truth is in sight!

Well we can hope he is working on it. According to his Not-a-Blog, he claims to be but somehow I get the feeling that doesn't mean we are any closer to a publication date. 

[alienarea]

12 hours ago, St Daga said:

Yet another inconsistency in the text. Gregor admits to smashing her head, just as he does to Oberyn.

IF this is true, then it might have been difficult to identify her remains. It's also possible Gregor just said this because he was very angry and there isn't any truth to his confession.  Did Ned ever see Elia's body? He talks as if he remembers only the childrens bodies. If he saw Elia's body, he doesn't specify it.

 

Well we can hope he is working on it. According to his Not-a-Blog, he claims to be but somehow I get the feeling that doesn't mean we are any closer to a publication date. 

If Gregor tells the truth that would leave room for another conspiracy:

He was in on it! He did not kill Elia and Aegon, but replacements, maybe Ashara instead of Elia? Maybe Aerys had ordered it to protect his lineage, and it would make sense to task Gregor with it. And maybe the three KG at the ToJ were clued in, if they knew Elia and Aegon were safe and had not been killed during the sack, they follow the last order of Aerys, to protect the escape of the new king Aegon?

[LynnS]

23 hours ago, St Daga said:

I think this is a really interesting line of thought to pursue, @LynnS.  It's been about thirty years since I read Dante's Inferno, and that was because it was required of a Europe Lit class, but that imagery of hell being a cold and frozen place did stick in my mind, although I have never connected it to the Stark's before. The other thing that stuck out to me is how Dante places every "pagan" into hell since they existed before the birth of Christianity. I thought it was an unfair line of thought to punish a huge portion of humanity who had no control over the time that they were born in. Hell is Icy and Dante is Unfair are my two take aways, thirty years later. Now, you have given me something to refocus on, and it does seem like something that GRRM might like to toy with.

I refreshed my mind on the 9th Circle, as well as the Center where Satan/Lucifer resides. The 9th level is for the treacherous and the four inner circles do hold to betrayers of things that I think GRRM has tied to the First Men. Betrayal of family ties, with a description of Cain killing Abel, so kinslaying a brother. Betrayal of community ties, with an example linked to the Trojen War and the betrayal of Troy. Betrayal of guests, with an example of the murder of a visitor or guest. And then betrayal of a master or liege lord, which is tied to Judas Iscariot, the betrayer of Jesus who is tied to the imagery of 30 silver coins. Silver does come up in the Stark imagery much more than gold. The 9th Circle itself is a frozen lake of ice. Ice, of course, seems strongly linked to the Starks, not just in their ancestral sword, but in the imagery of their grey, cold and sometimes icy eyes and humor. Are the Stark's stuck guarding something under Winterfell or is part of their punishment to always remain close to it?

The Center of Hell is where Satan himself resides. Satan is a beast that is described as a giant demon who is half frozen into the ice at the center of Hell. He has three faces and bat-like wings which when they beat, create a cold wind that keeps the Center and 9th Circle frigid and frozen. In out very first POV of the crypts, Ned thinks he "could feel the chill coming up the stairs, a cold breath from deep within the earth". This is quite interesting if we want to consider that something demonic, Satan-like is trapped under Winterfell, surrounded for eons by the Stark's of Winterfell. Perhaps all of the Stark Lords are serving some kind of punishment for the deeds of an ancestor and their punishment is both to guard the beast that lies below as well as to protect the rest of the world from it. Perhaps the statues of the Stark Lords are meant to mimic the beings of the 9th Circle who are paying for all eternity in the cold presence of Satan for past ill deeds, as a sort of penance. Or are they trapped their unfairly, and when and if they break free, their vengeance will be frightful?

Sorry, I haven't be focused very much on the discussions.  My attention has been on the Covid-19.  Concerning the sins that the old gods do not forgive; is it possible that this is the cause of the WW's showing up and the rise of the cold?  A purging of betrayers and oath breakers?  Is Jon their avenger|?  Perhaps even one of the heads of the god Trios along with Bran and Arya?

[St Daga]

7 hours ago, alienarea said:

If Gregor tells the truth that would leave room for another conspiracy:

He was in on it! He did not kill Elia and Aegon, but replacements, maybe Ashara instead of Elia? Maybe Aerys had ordered it to protect his lineage, and it would make sense to task Gregor with it. And maybe the three KG at the ToJ were clued in, if they knew Elia and Aegon were safe and had not been killed during the sack, they follow the last order of Aerys, to protect the escape of the new king Aegon?

Yes, I can see some of this theory working, and might make sense of what was going on with the Kingsguard at the toj. They were protecting the heirs of Aerys and Rhaegar. It would go a long way to explain why both Elia and Aegon's bodies were defiled in such a way, both of them having their heads crushed, that would make identification difficult. I am not sure if the woman killed would be Ashara though, because I don't see how she is then able to be at Starfall and receive Dawn after the toj situation. Of course, none of that might be true. I have long thought that Dawn might be in the Winterfell crypts (even though GRRM's SSM's deny this) and so perhaps that whole story of Ned returning Dawn is a load of lies. Another option for the woman killed in place of Elia could be Lyanna, except that doesn't really fit with Ned remember her dying in a room that smelled of blood and roses. If her head was crushed, she could not have been talking to him. The woman would have to have dark hair, like Elia, so it seems Ashara and Lyanna are good options to pursue, or even Rhaella, if we find out she had dark hair. Or perhaps our mystery Wylla? Several possible options, it seems.

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Sorry, I haven't be focused very much on the discussions.  My attention has been on the Covid-19.  Concerning the sins that the old gods do not forgive; is it possible that this is the cause of the WW's showing up and the rise of the cold?  A purging of betrayers and oath breakers?  Is Jon their avenger|?  Perhaps even one of the heads of the god Trios along with Bran and Arya?

I think we are all focused on Covid19, its overwhelming. I am using the boards to escape some of that, at least for a little bit. 

My question has always been was it the coming of the Other's the first time that changed the seasons to such craziness in Planetos? If so, GRRM has given magic credit for the reason. If the Satan/demon is trapped in Ice in the crypts, and trapped by magic, could this explain the seasons? And if it is freed, how does this fix the seasons? I have always like the idea that the Night's Queen is down there, but perhaps its' something different because doesn't the Night's Queen come after the initial battle for the Dawn? I suppose the timeline could be all jumbled.

I do think there is something very special about Jon, Bran and Arya. Not that all of the Stark children are not important, but those three seem to be set up in different ways than their siblings. Triple representations are also important in many world myths and religions. And ultimately, why is Bran's wolf named Summer, and what part of his dream triggered him to chose that name? Does it lead to a never ending summer, as we are told people talk about, or does it just indicate a return to normal seasons? 

As to Trios, if one head devours and one head is tied to rebirth, what does the middle head do? It's part of a transformation, but how does it work? Penny tells Tyrion about how she knows of a dwarf who was killed and cut into three pieces and the three pieces were placed into the mouths of the three heads of Trios, which actually hints that all three heads might devour/eat, not just one. Could all three heads be responsible for transformation and rebirth, as well?

[LynnS]

44 minutes ago, St Daga said:

As to Trios, if one head devours and one head is tied to rebirth, what does the middle head do? It's part of a transformation, but how does it work? Penny tells Tyrion about how she knows of a dwarf who was killed and cut into three pieces and the three pieces were placed into the mouths of the three heads of Trios, which actually hints that all three heads might devour/eat, not just one. Could all three heads be responsible for transformation and rebirth, as well?

That's what we are told. Does this have something to do with the old gods and the Lannisters specifically if the dwarf who was killed was a substitute for Tyrion?