Heresy 230 and die Herren von Winterfell

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

That's what we are told. Does this have something to do with the old gods and the Lannisters specifically if the dwarf who was killed was a substitute for Tyrion?

Maybe the Lannister's do play into a sacrifice of a sort. I have to think on that, but certainly that dwarf that Penny spoke of did have to do with Tyrion. And perhaps Trios is linked to the "old gods" in some way? We also have the imagery of Tyrion being haunted by dreams of the howling of wolves and wolves chasing him through the forest, so that might be some foreshadowing of his fate?

Another thought I had while I was out feeding horses this morning was the idea of what is Trios exactly. It's never described to us, but I was suddenly thinking it might be something much like Cerberus. Cerberus in Greco-Roman myth is a three headed dog who guards the underworld, to keep both from the dead trying to escape but also to keep the living from entering. Our Stark statues in the crypts have direwolves linked to them.  Certainly the Stark's seem linked to the concept of underworld with the crypts and something about Eddard, or perhaps any Lord of Winterfell, might link to the idea of Hades or Osiris, a Lord of the Underworld. We have both stone direwolves and flesh and blood direwolves linked to the Stark's, but perhaps this could also hint at a three-headed dog like beast, as well as wolf and direwolf imagery for the Starks. Perhaps this three headed dog/wolf image might tie to Jon, Bran and Arya. We do hear of Trios from Arya's POV, also Nymeria is called a hell-bitch from the seventh hell, we hear of "hellhouds" fighting in Bran's storyline, and in Jon's storyline there is the idea that Hardhome was swallowed by hell 600 years ago. There is also the mention of a hellhound statue at Dragonstone, which I have always thought was interesting based the fact that most of Dragonstone is covered in statues of dragon-like beasts. 

[Lady Rhodes]

On 4/16/2020 at 9:15 AM, St Daga said:

Some of my newest favorite tinfoil. In the last several months I have been pursuing the idea that Elia did indeed risk bearing a third child, even if it ultimately would mean her death. I think it's possible that Daenerys is Rhaegar and Elia's third child, that it was Elia who was snuck to Dragonstone and died giving birth there (unless that birth actually happened at the toj, which is also possible). After all, Dany's story does hint back to Dorne in some way and if her mother was from Dorne, this would make sense to me. One of the things I stumble over is Dany's eye color, which seems to be a purple violet (although I have also argued her eyes are more blue than purple but...) and that doesn't easily fit either Rhaegar's indigo eyes or Elia's brown ones. Yet, indigo is a blue plant that is known for purple dye, so perhaps that does fit both Dany and Rhaegar after all. 

I certainly think there was time for Elia to conceive again after Aegon, even if she waited six months between pregnancies, just like she did between conceiving Aegon after Rhaenys birth.

I don’t think you are too far off here. A few caveats before I start: I am a R +L=J believer; however, though I love the idea of star crossed lovers, it’s not GRRM style.  I am more inclined to believe that Rhaegar created a “fellowship” of sorts to protect Westeros and bring forth the PtwP.  

I think there are nine members of the fellowship (a homage to Tolkien): Rhaegar, Elia, Lyanna, Ashara, Arthur, Oswell Whent, and three others that we don’t yet know. I think it’s possible that Willem Darry, Llewyn Martell and Queen Rhaella could be the other three.

If we are to believe Danny’s vision in the HotU and take it at face value, Rhaegar truly believes that the dragon must have three heads. We know Elia was very frail and the pregnancy and birth of Rhaenys was very hard on her. @Melifeather and I have discussed this at length, but I believe the general consensus was that Elia did not yet know or was in the very early stages of her Aegon pregnancy at Harrenhal. My suspicion is that the tourney of Harrenhal was a recruitment event of sorts (beyond the issues of deposing of Aerys) to find the second (if they didn’t know Elia was pregnant) and third head of the dragon ie children from Rhaegar. 
I don’t believe that Willem Darry, Viserys and Rhaella were ever on Dragonstone. I think everyone (Ashara included) were at the ToJ. Rhaella does giving birth to a stillborn child. Dany is the daughter of Rhaegar and Ashara and Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. I am undecided if Meera Reed may be Jon’s twin. I think Dany was raised during her red door and lemon tree days in Dorne. Did Oberyn and Doran know? I am unsure. My inclination is that little goes on in Dorne without them knowing, yet Oberyn still has anger at Rhaegar for the death of Elia (though certainly not as much as he has toward the Lannister’s and still willing to put a Targaryen on the throne) Is it possible that we find out during Dance of the Dragons Part II that Dany grew up around the water gardens or the Greenblood? I wouldn’t be surprised. 
 

 

[Black Crow]

On 4/16/2020 at 2:42 PM, St Daga said:

I think this is a really interesting line of thought to pursue, @LynnS.  It's been about thirty years since I read Dante's Inferno, and that was because it was required of a Europe Lit class, but that imagery of hell being a cold and frozen place did stick in my mind, although I have never connected it to the Stark's before. The other thing that stuck out to me is how Dante places every "pagan" into hell since they existed before the birth of Christianity. I thought it was an unfair line of thought to punish a huge portion of humanity who had no control over the time that they were born in. Hell is Icy and Dante is Unfair are my two take aways, thirty years later. Now, you have given me something to refocus on, and it does seem like something that GRRM might like to toy with.

I refreshed my mind on the 9th Circle, as well as the Center where Satan/Lucifer resides. The 9th level is for the treacherous and the four inner circles do hold to betrayers of things that I think GRRM has tied to the First Men. Betrayal of family ties, with a description of Cain killing Abel, so kinslaying a brother. Betrayal of community ties, with an example linked to the Trojen War and the betrayal of Troy. Betrayal of guests, with an example of the murder of a visitor or guest. And then betrayal of a master or liege lord, which is tied to Judas Iscariot, the betrayer of Jesus who is tied to the imagery of 30 silver coins. Silver does come up in the Stark imagery much more than gold. The 9th Circle itself is a frozen lake of ice. Ice, of course, seems strongly linked to the Starks, not just in their ancestral sword, but in the imagery of their grey, cold and sometimes icy eyes and humor. Are the Stark's stuck guarding something under Winterfell or is part of their punishment to always remain close to it?

The Center of Hell is where Satan himself resides. Satan is a beast that is described as a giant demon who is half frozen into the ice at the center of Hell. He has three faces and bat-like wings which when they beat, create a cold wind that keeps the Center and 9th Circle frigid and frozen. In out very first POV of the crypts, Ned thinks he "could feel the chill coming up the stairs, a cold breath from deep within the earth". This is quite interesting if we want to consider that something demonic, Satan-like is trapped under Winterfell, surrounded for eons by the Stark's of Winterfell. Perhaps all of the Stark Lords are serving some kind of punishment for the deeds of an ancestor and their punishment is both to guard the beast that lies below as well as to protect the rest of the world from it. Perhaps the statues of the Stark Lords are meant to mimic the beings of the 9th Circle who are paying for all eternity in the cold presence of Satan for past ill deeds, as a sort of penance. Or are they trapped their unfairly, and when and if they break free, their vengeance will be frightful?

Yes, I really like this - very consistent with some of the thoughts we've had about the Starks and what's really down in the crypts

[LynnS]

On 4/17/2020 at 12:50 PM, St Daga said:

Maybe the Lannister's do play into a sacrifice of a sort. I have to think on that, but certainly that dwarf that Penny spoke of did have to do with Tyrion. And perhaps Trios is linked to the "old gods" in some way? We also have the imagery of Tyrion being haunted by dreams of the howling of wolves and wolves chasing him through the forest, so that might be some foreshadowing of his fate?

I'm thinking more on the lines that the Lannisters have sinned against the old gods and will be devoured by Trios as the most egregious sinners.  The statue of Trios representing an avatar or representation of the old gods.  This makes me think of Jon, Arya and Bran acting as devouring heads.  We have the three heads of the dragon and the three heads of Trios.

This is the quote about the frozen hell reserved for all Starks:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard IV

Outside, wagons and riders were still pouring through the castle gates, and the yard was a chaos of mud and horseflesh and shouting men. The king had not yet arrived, he was told. Since the ugliness on the Trident, the Starks and their household had ridden well ahead of the main column, the better to separate themselves from the Lannisters and the growing tension. Robert had hardly been seen; the talk was he was traveling in the huge wheelhouse, drunk as often as not. If so, he might be hours behind, but he would still be here too soon for Ned's liking. He had only to look at Sansa's face to feel the rage twisting inside him once again. The last fortnight of their journey had been a misery. Sansa blamed Arya and told her that it should have been Nymeria who died. And Arya was lost after she heard what had happened to her butcher's boy. Sansa cried herself to sleep, Arya brooded silently all day long, and Eddard Stark dreamed of a frozen hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell.

 

Reserved: kept specifically for a particular purpose or person.

[St Daga]

On 4/17/2020 at 7:06 PM, Lady Rhodes said:

I don’t think you are too far off here. A few caveats before I start: I am a R +L=J believer; however, though I love the idea of star crossed lovers, it’s not GRRM style.  I am more inclined to believe that Rhaegar created a “fellowship” of sorts to protect Westeros and bring forth the PtwP.  

I think there are nine members of the fellowship (a homage to Tolkien): Rhaegar, Elia, Lyanna, Ashara, Arthur, Oswell Whent, and three others that we don’t yet know. I think it’s possible that Willem Darry, Llewyn Martell and Queen Rhaella could be the other three.

This is an interesting idea and might turn out to be close to what is going on, but when comparing Tolkien's fellowship with this possible one, I would take into consideration that most of Tolkien's Fellowship lived. Boromir dies and also Gandolf, but Gandolf isn't really dead, he comes back as Super Gandolf the White. It would be possible that GRRM would do a more realistic group where the majority of them end up dead though. He is certainly willing to make homages to his favorite stories or writers, and LotR and Tolkien fits that criteria.

 

On 4/17/2020 at 7:06 PM, Lady Rhodes said:

If we are to believe Danny’s vision in the HotU and take it at face value, Rhaegar truly believes that the dragon must have three heads. We know Elia was very frail and the pregnancy and birth of Rhaenys was very hard on her. @Melifeather and I have discussed this at length, but I believe the general consensus was that Elia did not yet know or was in the very early stages of her Aegon pregnancy at Harrenhal. My suspicion is that the tourney of Harrenhal was a recruitment event of sorts (beyond the issues of deposing of Aerys) to find the second (if they didn’t know Elia was pregnant) and third head of the dragon ie children from Rhaegar. 

I am also inclined to believe this part of Dany's vision but I do remind myself with any of the parts to her vision, that she is told some of it is from "sights and sounds of days gone by and days to come and days that never were"  which does give us the possibility that Rhaegar never said this, or expressed anything about the three heads of the dragon, or even had this moment with Elia and Aegon. 

As to Elia's pregnancy, I would say she was further along. I don't want to get embroiled in another timeline bogdown, but the False Spring was said to have lasted two turns of the moon, and that by the new year, winter had returned with a vengeance. Around the new year, Elia had also given birth to Aegon and Rhaegar had already taken off on his mystery journey. But to have a tourney set around the idea of the spring, then the tourney seems to have happened sometime in those two months, which hints to me that Elia was in the last stages of her pregnancy. That doesn't mean she would not have known that this pregnancy and delivery might tax her body or even kill her though, so a recruitment of prospective uterus' still might have been in progress. I just think that since she survived her second pregnancy and delivery that she was willing to try a third time. We also look at Elia as if she would not want to risk her own health or life, but we really don't know that about her, nor do we know how important she might have felt her children by Rhaegar would be.

 

On 4/17/2020 at 7:06 PM, Lady Rhodes said:

Is it possible that we find out during Dance of the Dragons Part II that Dany grew up around the water gardens or the Greenblood? I wouldn’t be surprised.

I suspect that Dany could have been at the Water Gardens, or another important baby switch happened there. It makes a lot of sense. As to Dany and the water, she is quite comfortable on the open sea. I am not sure how that might translate to having grown up on a boat on a river. I am more inclined to associate her with the Water Gardens.

[St Daga]

On 4/18/2020 at 3:21 AM, Black Crow said:

Yes, I really like this - very consistent with some of the thoughts we've had about the Starks and what's really down in the crypts

I was quite excited with what the 9th Circle and the Center of Hell revealed and how it does seem to tie what might be the key to the Stark's and the Winterfell crypts. So thankful that @LynnS for pointing us in that direction. It's worth looking into and I would think that Dante's Inferno could be some literature that GRRM would be aware of and perhaps try to twist into his own story.

I find I am looking into the 7th Circle as well. It has occurred to me how much people curse in this story that includes "seven hells". I don't know if that's a nod to the 7th Circle or we will eventually find out that Hell of ASOIAF only includes seven circles. The 7th Circle of Dante's hell deals with violence and punishment for violent acts, as well as suicides, blasphemers and sodomites (another unfair judgement by Dante, no doubt). One thing that stands out to me about Dante's 7th Circle is that it's associated with blood and fire. It also includes suicide victims who are turned into trees and fed on by harpies (certainly plenty of harpy imagery in Dany's story) and the most inner of the 7th Circle was a place of burning sands. Blood and fire hints at the Targaryen's/Valyrian's, burning sands could hint at the Martell's or people from Dorne, and the Harpy could hint at parts of Essos entrenched in slavery. Tying these three groups together might be an important hint, perhaps. 

 

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I'm thinking more on the lines that the Lannisters have sinned against the old gods and will be devoured by Trios as the most egregious sinners.  The statue of Trios representing an avatar or representation of the old gods.  This makes me think of Jon, Arya and Bran acting as devouring heads.  We have the three heads of the dragon and the three heads of Trios.

Well, Jon and Arya both outright display thoughts or actions that are aggressive toward the Lion's of House Lannister. And Bran, who might turn out to be the darkest of the Stark children, has to keep being reminded to not think about Jaime and Cersei and what happened to him, but he dreams of a "golden man" and also the gargoyles that are lions with red eyes, so if he turns out to be part of this three-headed vengeance, it would not surprise me. Really good thoughts here, @LynnS

 

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

This is the quote about the frozen hell reserved for all Starks:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard IV

Outside, wagons and riders were still pouring through the castle gates, and the yard was a chaos of mud and horseflesh and shouting men. The king had not yet arrived, he was told. Since the ugliness on the Trident, the Starks and their household had ridden well ahead of the main column, the better to separate themselves from the Lannisters and the growing tension. Robert had hardly been seen; the talk was he was traveling in the huge wheelhouse, drunk as often as not. If so, he might be hours behind, but he would still be here too soon for Ned's liking. He had only to look at Sansa's face to feel the rage twisting inside him once again. The last fortnight of their journey had been a misery. Sansa blamed Arya and told her that it should have been Nymeria who died. And Arya was lost after she heard what had happened to her butcher's boy. Sansa cried herself to sleep, Arya brooded silently all day long, and Eddard Stark dreamed of a frozen hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell.

 

Reserved: kept specifically for a particular purpose or person.

I tend to set the Lords aside as more important, with their statues and stone wolves and iron swords, but you are correct that this quote seems to include all Stark's, and we do know from Ned's first POV that burial places have been set aside for him and his children. Ned does seem to shy away from that thought, though is it because he just doesn't want to think of death for himself or his kids, or if it's because he understands they have a role to serve in death that might not be part of any paradise. 

[Lady Rhodes]

@St Daga to be fair, the discussion regarding Elia and the pregnancy was probably close to two years ago. I am having trouble remembering the specifics. It would be quite funny if I am arguing against my initial thoughts!  my gut feeling now rests on Elia being bedridden for quite a while with Aegon pre and post birth. 

[St Daga]

28 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

@St Daga to be fair, the discussion regarding Elia and the pregnancy was probably close to two years ago. I am having trouble remembering the specifics. It would be quite funny if I am arguing against my initial thoughts!  my gut feeling now rests on Elia being bedridden for quite a while with Aegon pre and post birth. 

Haha! I have done that myself, especially over the years as I see the text a bit differently. And I struggle to even look back at my old posts as this forum is odd to me, since my profile loses posts that I have made and currently my avatar has disappeared with a poof of magic! So frustrating at times. I have made posts on this forum since 2012, but the majority of my comments are gone. Maybe that has to do with things getting archived, or even this recent upgrade? I am sure it's not because they are out to get me...  just kidding  

As to Elia's pregnancy, I don't know if it was the pregnancy that was so difficulty or just the birth process. I just don't know that she would have needed to wait longer than six months to conceive again, but if Rhaegar was questing around Westeros then he might not have been able to do his husbandly duty for her. That might have slowed her next pregnancy down. 

My other thought is, and it doesn't really fit the timeline since we know she and Rhaegar were married in 281 and had Rhaenys the same year, then waited 6 months to conceive, so I don't see how she could have had Aegon before Harrenhal, but that would be interesting if she had. Then they would have known she might be limited on a third pregnancy, but the timeline doesn't seem to fit that. Although gosh knows, I think we are more specific about the timeline that GRRM ever has been!

[Lady Rhodes]

2 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Haha! I have done that myself, especially over the years as I see the text a bit differently. And I struggle to even look back at my old posts as this forum is odd to me, since my profile loses posts that I have made and currently my avatar has disappeared with a poof of magic! So frustrating at times. I have made posts on this forum since 2012, but the majority of my comments are gone. Maybe that has to do with things getting archived, or even this recent upgrade? I am sure it's not because they are out to get me...  just kidding  

As to Elia's pregnancy, I don't know if it was the pregnancy that was so difficulty or just the birth process. I just don't know that she would have needed to wait longer than six months to conceive again, but if Rhaegar was questing around Westeros then he might not have been able to do his husbandly duty for her. That might have slowed her next pregnancy down. 

My other thought is, and it doesn't really fit the timeline since we know she and Rhaegar were married in 281 and had Rhaenys the same year, then waited 6 months to conceive, so I don't see how she could have had Aegon before Harrenhal, but that would be interesting if she had. Then they would have known she might be limited on a third pregnancy, but the timeline doesn't seem to fit that. Although gosh knows, I think we are more specific about the timeline that GRRM ever has been!

I believe that was the consensus that we came to- we were trying to nail down a timeline that GRRM was not a stickler about! 

[LynnS]

Something I came across going back to a previous discussion on green men.  I was watching the TV series Grimm and the writers employed a green man trope.  So I queried the TV Tropes website:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlantPerson

Expect them to have Fertile Feet, and feel the effects of deprivation when removed from natural environments for long. They usually function as a Fisher King in whatever area they inhabit; poisoning them or the forest has a reciprocal effect.

I'm reminded of this passage:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Brienne I

Ser Creighton was lost. "Sparrows?"

"The sparrow is the humblest and most common of birds, as we are the humblest and most common of men." The septon had a lean sharp face and a short beard, grizzled grey and brown. His thin hair was pulled back and knotted behind his head, and his feet were bare and black, gnarled and hard as tree roots. "These are the bones of holy men, murdered for their faith. They served the Seven even unto death. Some starved, some were tortured. Septs have been despoiled, maidens and mothers raped by godless men and demon worshipers. Even silent sisters have been molested. Our Mother Above cries out in her anguish. It is time for all anointed knights to forsake their worldly masters and defend our Holy Faith. Come with us to the city, if you love the Seven."

 

 

 

[LynnS]

And something interesting from the Fisher King trope:

Quote

The land of the Fisher King not only reflects the kind of rule they impose, but their moral alignment, state of health, and in some cases even their mood. ("The Land and the King are One.") In this kingdom the "divine right of kings" extends to a righteous link with the land. This is either a blessing or a curse, because though their joy brings eternal spring and bounty, their sadness and anger heralds rain and thunderstorms respectively. If the king is dying or goes mad, expect the kingdom to become sickly and its inhabitants unhinged. If he's replaced by a villain, they either "inherit" the link or the kingdom itself resents this affront to the natural order and becomes a truly depressing Mordor-like place to live (or even wintry). It is much more justifiable in-universe when the rulers are supernatural in any way. At other times it is just Rule of Drama and Empathic Environment having their hand in that. A more mundane explanation that could apply for everything but the weather, is that a good and respectful ruler cares about the well-being of his land and his subjects and invests time and effort to make his kingdom as pleasant as possible, while a selfish and uncaring one will only care for his own prosperity at everyone else's misery.

 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"Because they're different," he insisted. "Like night and day, or ice and fire."

"If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."

"One," his sister agreed, "but over wrinkled."

 

 

[St Daga]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

And something interesting from the Fisher King trope:

Quote

The land of the Fisher King not only reflects the kind of rule they impose, but their moral alignment, state of health, and in some cases even their mood. ("The Land and the King are One.") In this kingdom the "divine right of kings" extends to a righteous link with the land. This is either a blessing or a curse, because though their joy brings eternal spring and bounty, their sadness and anger heralds rain and thunderstorms respectively. If the king is dying or goes mad, expect the kingdom to become sickly and its inhabitants unhinged. If he's replaced by a villain, they either "inherit" the link or the kingdom itself resents this affront to the natural order and becomes a truly depressing Mordor-like place to live (or even wintry). It is much more justifiable in-universe when the rulers are supernatural in any way. At other times it is just Rule of Drama and Empathic Environment having their hand in that. A more mundane explanation that could apply for everything but the weather, is that a good and respectful ruler cares about the well-being of his land and his subjects and invests time and effort to make his kingdom as pleasant as possible, while a selfish and uncaring one will only care for his own prosperity at everyone else's misery.

 

Very interesting. My first thought was this sounds a lot like the North and the Starks. Of course, it's not all about them in this story but they certainly are important. The Fisher King is linked to Arthurian legend and the Fisher King and his son are sometimes tied to a leg wound (sometimes a thigh wound or groin wound) but for the case of leg wounds, we have Eddard and Jon. Where was Robb's wound he took at The Crag. In my mind its a shoulder/arm wound but I can't find anything to back that up. Of course, Bran has lost the use of his legs and that could be considered a wound to the leg. 

Also, when talking about Bran, this Fisher King first shows up in Irish literature and is centered around Bran the Blessed of the Mabinogion (fitting @Black Crow's ideas). Bran the Blessed has many powers including the power of resurrection. In later myth, there is a Fisher King named Bron. Bron is quit similar to Bran, but we also have a character called Bron. I have never compared Bran Stark and Bron the Sellsword before but perhaps it's worth looking at. 

I like the idea of the divine right being either a blessing or a curse, and how it's tied to the land.  Back to the leg wounds for a moment. The leg wound in the Fisher King myth is sometimes tied to philandering. That doesn't really seem to fit Eddard or Jon, but ironically, Jon Snow receives his leg wound from Ygritte, with whom he "philandered", and Ned's leg wound is received as a result of Cat's actions, and Cat would fit the concept of Ned's lover. Philandering also seems to fit the concept of Robert Baratheon and of course, thunderstorms make me think of the Baratheon's and the Stormlands but we also have the imagery of wintery storms when a villain replaces the king (Hello, Ramsay!) And really, Robert Baratheon is replaced by a villainous heir in Joffrey, even if he's not his biological child. Westeros went to shit after Robert and Ned's deaths!

Also the fact that the rulers are tied to the supernatural is interesting. We are introduced to the Other's in the Prologue and they seem quite supernatural. The one survivor of that showdown then mets Ned Stark and loses his head to Ned's judgement, First Men concepts and Ice. The Starks and the Other's seem tied by the thin bond that is Gared. 

When I looked a little further into the Fisher King concept, I found it's tied to two weapons, a lance and a sword. More specifically a bloody lance and a broken sword. I have all sorts of idea's on broken swords, and I think Dawn could have been broken but we also have Ice, which was figuratively broken by Tywin. A bloody lance also reminds me of the imagery around Brandon Stark liking  maidens blood on his sword/cock. It's not a lance per say, but a lance has certainly seen as imagery r/t male genitalia just as a sword has.

The well being of the kingdom tied the whether the Fisher King cares only for himself first or puts the needs of his people first also seems quite important. 

 

[QhorinQuarterhand]

On 4/16/2020 at 7:07 AM, St Daga said:

It's hard to say when Elia might have tried to conceive again. I think she would have to let her body heal, so at least another six months after birth. But then it might depend on when Rhaegar was available to fulfill his husbandly duties. I have said for years that we focus on the timeline more than GRRM ever has, and I don't think timeline is his strong suit. Anyway, Elia didn't have to be known to be pregnant at court to actually be pregnant. And she might have been safely away from KL before this information was known. After all, wasn't Elia's head crushed, much like Oberyn's, so the body might have been hard to positively identify, much as we are told about Prince Aegon's crushed head.

My thought is that Elia was smuggled out of the Red Keep and that is who Jaime saw leaving in the dark, cloaked and hard to recognize. He thinks it was Rhaella but he could be wrong. And if Elia was truly imprisoned in a tower, then how many people saw her often enough to know if it was truly she who was held captive. Although she would have had to have been there at some time for she and Rhaegar to conceive a third child. 

I think that information about Viserys being crowned by Rhaella comes from the app and since I don't consider that canon, I don't have to try to fit it into my thoughts. 

My initial thoughts months and months ago are tied to the information that Dany has been told about her mother. Her mother who died giving birth to her. Yet what we know of Rhaella is a woman who had many pregnancies and births, and though she lost children, we are never told that she was ever at risk of death from any of these pregnancies or deliveries. Yet we are flat out told that a third child would kill Elia Martell. And Dany was born to a mother who died. It just seems to fit Elia better than Rhaella, at least for me. I really can't decide if Dany was born to Elia on Dragonstone or if it was in Dorne in the "tower of joy". Dany's birth was surrounded by a storm that knocked gargoyles off a castle yet we hear of no major damage to Dragonstone. Yet something happened at the toj which made it a building that Ned could pull down with his own hands and build some cairns out of. I'm leaning toward the toj for Dany's birthplace, which fits the image of the storm imagery in Ned's dream as well as Dany's nickname of Stormborn. 

I might be quite wrong about all of this, but I find the idea intriguing. 

I think it's ironic that fans have spent so many years discussing things like how long R+L or whoever were in the TOJ when it might as well have been in the middle of the pool at the Water Gardens in terms of privacy. And the canon text tells us the TOJ probably wasn't even habitable. Otherwise Ned and Howland wouldn't have been able to tear it down. 

[corbon]

16 minutes ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

And the canon text tells us the TOJ probably wasn't even habitable.

where does it say that?

16 minutes ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

Otherwise Ned and Howland wouldn't have been able to tear it down. 

I hope this is not the textual reference you mean, because the idea that just because two men (and a bunch of horses) could pull a tower down does not logically equate with it being uninhabitable.

[QhorinQuarterhand]

On 4/16/2020 at 11:34 PM, alienarea said:

If Gregor tells the truth that would leave room for another conspiracy:

He was in on it! He did not kill Elia and Aegon, but replacements, maybe Ashara instead of Elia? Maybe Aerys had ordered it to protect his lineage, and it would make sense to task Gregor with it. And maybe the three KG at the ToJ were clued in, if they knew Elia and Aegon were safe and had not been killed during the sack, they follow the last order of Aerys, to protect the escape of the new king Aegon?

Maybe that is the answer to what Rhaegar was doing during all that time. He was planning a way for his wife and children to escape when it came time for House Targaryen to fall. 

Rhaegar and Tywin planned and executed the fake deaths of Rhaegar, Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys. They all still live. Peasants or whoever died in their places. Elia is Quaithe. Rhaegar is the Tattered Prince. Young Griff is Aegon. Val is Rhaenys. Rickard is Jon's father.

*carefully removes my tinfoil crown*

[QhorinQuarterhand]

15 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I believe that was the consensus that we came to- we were trying to nail down a timeline that GRRM was not a stickler about! 

I think GRRM plays “I am only a young girl and do not understand the ways of war" with us more often than we think. And that includes when he answers about the Robert's Rebellion timeline. Or when he talks about how he started the books before the internet was a big deal and he didn't anticipate fans figuring things out in forum discussions. He simply has decided he isn't going to reveal anything important outside the books. 

[LynnS]

9 hours ago, St Daga said:

Also, when talking about Bran, this Fisher King first shows up in Irish literature and is centered around Bran the Blessed of the Mabinogion (fitting @Black Crow's ideas). Bran the Blessed has many powers including the power of resurrection. In later myth, there is a Fisher King named Bron. Bron is quit similar to Bran, but we also have a character called Bron. I have never compared Bran Stark and Bron the Sellsword before but perhaps it's worth looking at.

I think GRRM is employing the Celtic myths, specifically Bran the Blessed but with his own twists.  In the fisher king tale, the divine right of kings is something that is bestowed by the gods; and  the reason why kingslaying is one of the great sins they don't forget. Along with the notion that the king and the land are one.  I'm reminded of Meera and Jojen's pledge of allegiance.

 

[Melifeather]

9 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

And the canon text tells us the TOJ probably wasn't even habitable. Otherwise Ned and Howland wouldn't have been able to tear it down. 

Which canon is that? GRRM said only the books are canon. Other things like the app and WB are "semi-canon".

 

[LynnS]

Another interesting Trope:  Mordor

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Mordor

This is what happens when the good king isn't restored to the throne:

Quote

Mordor is a black and bleak type of shadowland. The sun is always hidden behind endless dark storm clouds. What little vegetation there is (if any) will be withered and rotting or mutated into an "evil" variety that's covered in sharp thorns and/or liable to eat people. Poisonous marshes and swampland are also quite common. Expect frequent volcanoes and/or ice storms. May contain the ruins that show that once people had lived here. It may even be an Eldritch Location, defying the laws of nature (and most Eldritch Locations are Mordor).

Vegetation mutated into the evil variety.  Ghost grass?

The reason that Bran must live and perhaps what he saw in his vision that made him so afraid?

Quote

In a Fantasy Setting, Mordor is often this way because the evil of the Big Bad who rules the place radiates throughout the land, or because his Black Magic acts as a Curse on it. Often, this land was once a beautiful place before the Big Bad got hold of it, and it's presented as a stark example of what could happen to the hero's world should he or she fail in stopping the Big Bad. Should the Big Bad be defeated and the good king restored, often the skies will clear up and the birds and bees and flowers will return at warp speed.