Heresy 230 and die Herren von Winterfell

[Frey family reunion]

12 hours ago, corbon said:

I hope this is not the textual reference you mean, because the idea that just because two men (and a bunch of horses) could pull a tower down does not logically equate with it being uninhabitable.

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Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge.

Where does it say two men pulled the tower down?  And it couldn't have been much of a tower if it could be consumed by only creating eight cairns.  Unless you believe only part of the tower was used to create the cairns, in that case, why pull the entire tower down?  And what did Ned do with the bed?  Or the little mice and birds that would help dress and sing to Lyanna every morning?

[St Daga]

13 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

I think it's ironic that fans have spent so many years discussing things like how long R+L or whoever were in the TOJ when it might as well have been in the middle of the pool at the Water Gardens in terms of privacy. And the canon text tells us the TOJ probably wasn't even habitable. Otherwise Ned and Howland wouldn't have been able to tear it down. 

It's hard to say what the toj was from what little we know. It might have been a habitable tower, but something happened to it that made it quite easy to take down by Ned. We so see Cersei and some wildfire destroy the Tower of the Hand and that could be a parallel to what happened at the toj. Myself, I have speculated that the tower was not a building at all, but a tor, a granite marker rising up, placed by nature but still a place that people might have used for gatherings or meetings. Tower can sound quite like tor, which I was struck by when searching for information on cairns. Cairns are also noted to be near places with tors in places in England, such as Dartmoor and Exmoor, which were specifically areas I researched that combined tor's and cairns. It does stand out that Ned mentions that he pulled the tower down and used the bloody stones to make cairns out of. Whether he did this with help or not is unclear. Bloody stones could indicate actual blood on them, metaphorical blood on them, or that they were red in color, which would makes sense considering the red stone associated with some places in Dorne. While I agree it probably wasn't a lavish or large tower, we do have examples of smaller towers that could have served as a fort or hiding place for several people. Also, to argue with my own thoughts on a tower/tor, I don't see how a tor built by nature could be easily taken down, unless magic or wild fire was being used. Much is left open to interpretation based on lack of details in the text.

[St Daga]

13 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

Rhaegar and Tywin planned and executed the fake deaths of Rhaegar, Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys. They all still live. Peasants or whoever died in their places. Elia is Quaithe. Rhaegar is the Tattered Prince. Young Griff is Aegon. Val is Rhaenys. Rickard is Jon's father.

I have a hard time thinking Tywin would have been a part of getting Rhaegar or his family to safety. Still, if Rhaegar and Elia's nuclear family did survive, I don't think Rhaenys could be Val. Rhaenys was said to be colored like Elia, so dark hair, dark eyes, which doesn't fit Val's description. It's more likely if Rhaenys survived, then she is either Arianne Martell or one of the Sand Snakes, although none of them fit her exactly, either age wise or in looks. I would also bet that Rhaegar and Elia had a third child, and that child is Dany. Dany's name fits both her Targaryen blood as well as the Daenerys' that was adored in Dorne and associated with the building of the Water Gardens. The Water Gardens would be a great place to swap a child or two. I'm about 50/50 on Young Griff really being Prince Aegon. It seems more likely it's someone else that we probably have already met in the story. Yes, I have tinfoil for that too! 

 

11 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

I think GRRM plays “I am only a young girl and do not understand the ways of war" with us more often than we think. And that includes when he answers about the Robert's Rebellion timeline.

Haha! He might be playing with us a bit, it would not surprise me, but I honestly think he is just pretty poor with his own timeline. 

[St Daga]

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think GRRM is employing the Celtic myths, specifically Bran the Blessed but with his own twists.  In the fisher king tale, the divine right of kings is something that is bestowed by the gods; and  the reason why kingslaying is one of the great sins they don't forget. Along with the notion that the king and the land are one.  I'm reminded of Meera and Jojen's pledge of allegiance.

GRRM has twisted up a lot of world mythos into his story, not just Celtic, but that is certainly there, along with Scandinavian myth, Greco-Roman myth, Egyptian/Sumerian/Mesopotamian myth.  Some of the Celtic concepts also tie to Arthurian legend, as well. Meera and Jojen's oath is quite interesting, I agree, although I am not sure it just ties to Celtic myth. I do think that there might be something to the idea of Bronze age leading into Iron age in our world that GRRM is toying with in his story, and that might also hint every further back to the Stone age time period. Plus, that oath includes extremes, such as ice and fire. This also seems to tie to the four elements, Earth, Air, Water, Fire. So, if we can agree that ice embraces the water element, just a variation of it, the only element we are missing in the Reed's pledge is air. 

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

And it couldn't have been much of a tower if it could be consumed by only creating eight cairns.  Unless you believe only part of the tower was used to create the cairns, in that case, why pull the entire tower down?  And what did Ned do with the bed?  Or the little mice and birds that would help dress and sing to Lyanna every morning?

A cairn can be as large or small as the builder wants it to be, so size might not matter. Ned's cairns could include only a few stones each as a marker, or they could be quite tall and significant in size. he doesn't say that he used every stone available, so he could have used just a few of the overall stones from whatever the toj was. They could be a heap of stones, an outline of stones such a circle or square, or stacked one on top of another in a precarious balance. I would guess they are in no way formal or organized in design, nor would each one have to look like the others, nor would they have been large stones, otherwise they would have been difficult for one man (or two men) to move. As I am in the middle of building a rock garden in my backyard, I am reminded that stones are heavy.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

A cairn can be as large or small as the builder wants it to be, so size might not matter. Ned's cairns could include only a few stones each as a marker, or they could be quite tall and significant in size. he doesn't say that he used every stone available, so he could have used just a few of the overall stones from whatever the toj was. They could be a heap of stones, an outline of stones such a circle or square, or stacked one on top of another in a precarious balance. I would guess they are in no way formal or organized in design, nor would each one have to look like the others, nor would they have been large stones, otherwise they would have been difficult for one man (or two men) to move. As I am in the middle of building a rock garden in my backyard, I am reminded that stones are heavy.

Well sure, and he could have built mausoleums out in the middle of nowhere for them too.  (But you would think that baby Jon would have started getting pretty  cranky halfway through the construction project).  But it's pretty evident that Ned was making grave markers as a sign of respect for the felled combatants, much in the same way Cat has them make cairns for their companions who were killed en route to the Eryie.  

For eight grave markers you probably would not have needed to pull down an entire tower, at least not a tower capable of habitation.

[corbon]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Where does it say two men pulled the tower down? 

Ned has Howland. It doesn't mean they both had to work on it necessarily, but its not reasonable to claim that it can only be one man working alone. 

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

And it couldn't have been much of a tower if it could be consumed by only creating eight cairns. 

Who said it was consumed?

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Unless you believe only part of the tower was used to create the cairns, in that case, why pull the entire tower down? 

So that no one will see it from the main route through the pass and come look.

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

And what did Ned do with the bed? 

He has to do something with the bed?

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Or the little mice and birds that would help dress and sing to Lyanna every morning?

Slaughter them indiscriminately of course. He's secretly a total monster, didn't you pick that up by now!

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Well sure, and he could have built mausoleums out in the middle of nowhere for them too.  (But you would think that baby Jon would have started getting pretty  cranky halfway through the construction project).  But it's pretty evident that Ned was making grave markers as a sign of respect for the felled combatants, much in the same way Cat has them make cairns for their companions who were killed en route to the Eryie.  

Agreed.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

For eight grave markers you probably would not have needed to pull down an entire tower, at least not a tower capable of habitation.

Its not likely thats why he pulled the tower down.

Did it occur to you that he dreams of 'a tower long fallen' not 'a tower long dismantled into cairns'? He pulled the tower down, and used some of the stones for cairns.

The tower would have been built habitable. For it to have any purpose at all, people had to inhabit it. There is no evidence it was in bad enough disrepair to be inhabitable, only that after the fight Ned pulled it down (using whatever resources he had available) and used some of the stones for cairns.

I don't understand why the desperate need to insist that it was uninhabitable when there is no logic or evidence for this to be true. Is it a reflex argument?

 

[QhorinQuarterhand]

7 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Which canon is that? GRRM said only the books are canon. Other things like the app and WB are "semi-canon".

 

The only canon there is. AGOT-ADWD. I should add this to my sig

It is canon text that tells us Ned pulled down the tower. In his fever dream chapter, but after he had woken up. Only Ned and Howland were alive to pull the tower down. 

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory’s father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed

If the stones of the tower are held together so loosely that two men with swords and horses can tear it down, then people living inside it would have caused it to fall apart.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Did it occur to you that he dreams of 'a tower long fallen' not 'a tower long dismantled into cairns'? He pulled the tower down, and used some of the stones for cairns.

It seems another possibility is that the tower was long fallen even before the battle at the tower of joy.  It was already in ruins, when Ned pulled down the last of it for the cairns.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Slaughter them indiscriminately of course. He's secretly a total monster, didn't you pick that up by now!

Howland may have had a pretty good recipe for talking birds.  The mice, I'd might pass up.

[corbon]

52 minutes ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

If the stones of the tower are held together so loosely that two men with swords and horses can tear it down, then people living inside it would have caused it to fall apart.

Seriously? I don't even know how to start. 

1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

It seems another possibility is that the tower was long fallen even before the battle at the tower of joy.  It was already in ruins, when Ned pulled down the last of it for the cairns.

Thats possible too. Just not indicated. Or required.

Recall also that it was still 'round tower' not a 'fallen tower' when the three KG waited before it for Ned and his companions.

[St Daga]

16 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Well sure, and he could have built mausoleums out in the middle of nowhere for them too.  (But you would think that baby Jon would have started getting pretty  cranky halfway through the construction project).  But it's pretty evident that Ned was making grave markers as a sign of respect for the felled combatants, much in the same way Cat has them make cairns for their companions who were killed en route to the Eryie.  

For eight grave markers you probably would not have needed to pull down an entire tower, at least not a tower capable of habitation.

Well, if Ned wanted to build a mausoleum, he probably would have needed an architect, which he probably didn't have in his saddlebag, so cairns make more sense. The only point I was trying to make is it really doesn't matter the size of the toj, big or small, because Ned didn't need to use every stone, however many there might have been in the toj, for his cairn pet project. And that doesn't mean you would not still pull the whole thing down. I doubt it was a large or grand place, and I never argued that. For the sake of my own theory, I think the toj was a tor, a granite outcropping, and not a man-made tower at all. The biggest argument to my own theory is that anyone person (or two) could pull a tor down is highly unlikely, although there are certainly "strong" hints in the Starks.

[Melifeather]

16 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

The only canon there is. AGOT-ADWD. I should add this to my sig

It is canon text that tells us Ned pulled down the tower. In his fever dream chapter, but after he had woken up. Only Ned and Howland were alive to pull the tower down. 

 

If the stones of the tower are held together so loosely that two men with swords and horses can tear it down, then people living inside it would have caused it to fall apart.

I shouldn't have picked on you like that. There was something in your phrasing that got me going....but I digress. Here is the passage:

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Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

I tend to look at all definitions and uses for words. They don't necessarily have to be interpreted so literally. "Pulled" for example can be defined as "to perform successfully", also "to carry out". If we apply this definition of "pulled" then you could say Ned pulled a successful campaign to secure the tower, but it cost him the lives of five of his men and the three that were defending it. Five of his men died before Ned and his remaining men were successful. The battle for the tower Ned pulled off was "built" on the backs of eight men. In effect he built eight "cairns" - meaning the fight cost eight lives. As for the description of the stones as being "bloody", Ned gives us the reason:

 

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard IX

Littlefinger and the City Watch found him there in the street, cradling Jory Cassel's body in his arms.

 

Somewhere the gold cloaks found a litter, but the trip back to the castle was a blur of agony, and Ned lost consciousness more than once. He remembered seeing the Red Keep looming ahead of him in the first grey light of dawn. The rain had darkened the pale pink stone of the massive walls to the color of blood.

 

 

While blood was surely spilled, the walls of the Red Keep and Maegor's Holdfast are already a pale pink stone, but in the early morning hours of the dawn they appear to be the color of blood. The tower of joy wasn't some remote location in Dorne. It's a nickname for Maegor's Holdfast.

[alienarea]

16 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

 

 

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It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory’s father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed

If we take this as the truth, there wasn't a baby at the ToJ (my favorite image: Ned holding a starving and screaming Baby Jon, Howland Reed carrying Dawn, with a decomposing Lyanna flipped over a spare horse, ride into Starfall and nobody recalls this later - I want to believe :) ).

If Elia, Young Aegon, maybe Rhaegar faked there deaths and moved to Essos - Ned suggests to Cersei to move to Essos, they would go there by Dorne, wouldn't they? In this scenario Lyanna was and died in Starfall, and the three KG were at the ToJ to stall Ned and Co until Team Elia escaped. And Ashara jumped off the tower as a cover up?

 

 

[Black Crow]

19 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

It seems another possibility is that the tower was long fallen even before the battle at the tower of joy.  It was already in ruins, when Ned pulled down the last of it for the cairns.

Yes, I can cheerfully go with this.

"I'm reminded of the old question; did he fall or was he pushed?"

I think that it might be unnecessarily complicated by the assumption on one part that Lyanna Stark and her son were parked inside.

If she was located elsewhere, say Starfall for the sake of argument, the exchanges, the fight and the futile deaths still play out as written - and it really doesn't affect the R+L=J theory one way of the other.

[Lady Dyanna]

Did this entire thread somehow magically travel back in time to about five years ago or so? Maybe it too got stuck in the tunnels leading from beyond the wall and to the cold pond at Winterfell too? 

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Yes, I can cheerfully go with this.

"I'm reminded of the old question; did he fall or was he pushed?"

I think that it might be unnecessarily complicated by the assumption on one part that Lyanna Stark and her son were parked inside.

If she was located elsewhere, say Starfall for the sake of argument, the exchanges, the fight and the futile deaths still play out as written - and it really doesn't affect the R+L=J theory one way of the other.

Yes, I go along with that as well.  I have always imagined the tower of joy, as an ancient building falling apart and easily taken apart.  Also, Rhaegar naming it the tower of joy somewhat ironical or sarcastic. 

[Lady Dyanna]

I’m not sure that we have enough solid information available to go beyond speculation with most of this stuff. As for the tower, one sentence saying it was pulled down for cairns really doesn’t convey a whole lot of information.  It never explains how it was done or even how difficult it was. It’s easy to read anything you might choose into it and still possibly be correct. I’m just having deja vu reading the arguments. I can still hear it coming from Voice. 
Ditto with the cannon signature. I almost want to refer you back to Weasel Pie to see if he’d be willing to share his old signature. Thank you both for the unintended laugh. 

I think the same thing is true of Lyanna’s location. There’s nothing that completely precludes her being at the toj, but also nothing that definitely confirms it either. And I’m pretty sure there’s foreshadowing and hints there to support both conclusions.

The one thing that I can’t seem to get past, however is just how many times a maiden that is either pregnant, accompanied by a child or grieving a child is placed in a tower. They stay there. They jump from there. They get pushed from there. And on one occasion it was rumored that one turned into a winged wolf and flew from there. 

@Sly Wren and I had done a detailed reread along with some of the rest of you all over at TLH years ago of the Sansa chapter with both the “Snowflake Communion” and Lysa being pushed from the moon door by Baelish. The descriptions of that hall have always brought Starfall to mind for me. I think it might be tangentially linked somehow to what had occurred there during the rebellion. I don’t have a lot to go on to prove it. But it feels almost like things that are occurring in our current story in the Vale are a distant echo of Dorne during the rebellion.

[Melifeather]

53 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes, I go along with that as well.  I have always imagined the tower of joy, as an ancient building falling apart and easily taken apart.  Also, Rhaegar naming it the tower of joy somewhat ironical or sarcastic. 

Maegor's Holdfast was built by King Maegor I - a cruel man who craved violence, death, and absolute mastery over all he deemed his. His savagery in the field and his harshness toward defeated enemies was frequently remarked upon. He had six wives, with the last three known as the Black Brides. (an inversted parallel to three white, male, Kingsguard, perhaps?)

Isn't it interesting that Maegor and his six wives make seven in the tower, (they were seven against three) with three of them known as Black Brides? Also notable is how Maegor's physique is described as "bull-like". (echoed by Ser Hightower?) After construction of the tower was complete, he killed everyone who had labored on it. A real tower of joy indeed.
 

[Brad Stark]

On the one hand, I pictured a huge tower Lyanna and Rhaegar lived in for months or years, with a spiral staircase Ned and friends climbed during a sword fight to the death with the Kingsguard. 

On the other hand, I pictured Ned suddenly getting mad and pulling a building over in 1 heave ho. 

Obviously, different ideas of the tower.  I don't think any narrative fits where Ned labors for weeks to demolish a structure.  But this doesn't have to be the case for the tower to be habitable.  It probably wasn't built to modern code, and probably didn't face much weather, and tearing down a tower is easier than putting one up.  If it were built on sand, or out of blocks without cement mortar, it might be very stable but easy enough to tear down with a little persistence.

I never did, but knew kids who spent the night in tree houses.  Probably not safe, but possible, and a big guy like Ned would have no trouble pulling them down in one heave ho.