Is House Tyrell rising to power one big Plot that started from the Targaryen Conquest?

[Dreadscythe95]

After reading Fire and Blood, Dunk & Egg and combined these timelines with ASOIAF I kind of felt that the place of Power that House Tyrell holds in Westeros in A Storm of Swords and forward is a big climb that started from the year that The Tyrells became lords of The Reach. If you combine the way that Martin has written them, their words (Growing Strong) and their politics it feels like Martin wanted to write a House that took power by making the right choices and being at the right place the right time, being unerestimated by the other Houses of Westeros and climbing the steps of power in the Shadows till in the end they managed to finally aproach the Iron Throne and the Influence and prestige they want to obtain.  Martin in F&B clearly shows us that other Houses didn't consider them a big thread considering the power they possess and they still manage to maintain their power with the least losses in every situation. One Redwyne even said to King Jahaerys that The Tyrells are idiots. I always noticed that Martin approached The Great Houses of Westeros like human types of personalities and that House Tyrell is that one friend that we all like but still consider to be a mild person yet in reality he always has a big influence in our gang.

What do you guys think is Martin's approach to House Tyrell from Aegon Conquest to ADWD?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

Their story in the last 300 years is probably more about consolidation. Nominally their power hasn't changed, what has changed is that they are no longer just a house of up jumped stewards who need the Throne to stay alive. They now have marriage ties to a lot of very strong Reachmen houses (almost all the important ones besides Tarly, Florent and Rowan). Now with the Wot5K they have gotten rid of their most powerful rival, the Florents and took their keep for themselves. So yeah they are growing strong, and by now have a powerful enough power base that they can do whatever they want.

[Lord Varys]

FaB makes it clear - both with the Tullys and the Tyrells - that nominal power and real power are two different things. The Tullys never established themselves as the real rulers of the Riverlands, in part because the Riverlords have always been a quarrelsome lot, in part because Aegon the Conqueror did only name Edmyn Tully the Lord Paramount of the Trident but did not grant him larger lands - unlike with the Tyrells, who were not only made Lords Paramount of the Mander but also got the all the lands and incomes of Highgarden (which likely were the richest lands in the Reach).

The Tyrells had nominal power in the 1st century, but the old power elite of the Reach - the Hightowers, Redwynes, Rowans, etc. - shunned them, meaning their real power was very limited. When Martyn Tyrell and his wife joined the Small Council, their rise began, but one imagines that the first time the Tyrells rose to real prominence was only after the Dance - when the Hightowers were cut down in size (one could imagine that Aegon II would eventually have made his Hightower cousins the Lords Paramount of the Mander had there been no Dance or had the Greens won the Dance).

But it is unclear when exactly the Hightowers and Redwynes started to intermarry with the Tyrells. During the reign of Jaehaerys I and around the Dance there were still no meaningful blood ties between those houses.

It might be that things only changed for the better for them in that department when Olenna Redwyne married Luthor Tyrell. Although I expect that a man like Leo Longthorn also was able to make a very prestigious match.

How great the hold of the Tyrells is over the Reach we'll see in TWoW and later on - the Golden Company thinks they have allies in the Reach, and if there are many Targaryen loyalists there we might also see lords abandon Highgarden/Tommen to join Aegon for that reason.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

FaB makes it clear - both with the Tullys and the Tyrells - that nominal power and real power are two different things. The Tullys never established themselves as the real rulers of the Riverlands, in part because the Riverlords have always been a quarrelsome lot, in part because Aegon the Conqueror did only name Edmyn Tully the Lord Paramount of the Trident but did not grant him larger lands - unlike with the Tyrells, who were not only made Lords Paramount of the Mander but also got the all the lands and incomes of Highgarden (which likely were the richest lands in the Reach).

The Tyrells had nominal power in the 1st century, but the old power elite of the Reach - the Hightowers, Redwynes, Rowans, etc. - shunned them, meaning their real power was very limited. When Martyn Tyrell and his wife joined the Small Council, their rise began, but one imagines that the first time the Tyrells rose to real prominence was only after the Dance - when the Hightowers were cut down in size (one could imagine that Aegon II would eventually have made his Hightower cousins the Lords Paramount of the Mander had there been no Dance or had the Greens won the Dance).

But it is unclear when exactly the Hightowers and Redwynes started to intermarry with the Tyrells. During the reign of Jaehaerys I and around the Dance there were still no meaningful blood ties between those houses.

It might be that things only changed for the better for them in that department when Olenna Redwyne married Luthor Tyrell. Although I expect that a man like Leo Longthorn also was able to make a very prestigious match.

How great the hold of the Tyrells is over the Reach we'll see in TWoW and later on - the Golden Company thinks they have allies in the Reach, and if there are many Targaryen loyalists there we might also see lords abandon Highgarden/Tommen to join Aegon for that reason.

Also it's worth mentioning that until the Blackfyre rebellion the Tyrells stayed neutral the whole time in order to make sure that they keep their Lord Paramountship.

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Also it's worth mentioning that until the Blackfyre rebellion the Tyrells stayed neutral the whole time in order to make sure that they keep their Lord Paramountship.

Well, there weren't all that many civil wars before the First Blackfyre Rebellion, no? And during the Dance they stayed neutral not because this was a great power play but because their lord was an infant and his mother and whoever else ruled in the name of Lord Lyonel didn't really feel confidant or saw a reason to choose a side. We can be pretty confident that a grown-up Lord of Highgarden would have chosen a side.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, there weren't all that many civil wars before the First Blackfyre Rebellion, no? And during the Dance they stayed neutral not because this was a great power play but because their lord was an infant and his mother and whoever else ruled in the name of Lord Lyonel didn't really feel confidant or saw a reason to choose a side. We can be pretty confident that a grown-up Lord of Highgarden would have chosen a side.

Yeah, but they also stayed out of the faith militant uprising. As for the Dance even if their lord was an infant, they still could have fought, that's why there are regents. All in all I think the Tyrells were very weary of being on the losing side and losing all power, cause unlike say the Starks they could very easily be replaced having neither prestige nor loyalty.

[frenin]

20 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Yeah, but they also stayed out of the faith militant uprising. As for the Dance even if their lord was an infant, they still could have fought, that's why there are regents. All in all I think the Tyrells were very weary of being on the losing side and losing all power, cause unlike say the Starks they could very easily be replaced having neither prestige nor loyalty.

The Tyrells supported the Greens at first but they saw that the Reach was split between Blacks and Greens and they wisely stayed out of it.

We don't really have a reason to believe an adult Lord Tyrell would've participated, an adult Tyrell would've played the same game Borros and Cregan played or directly stayed out of it until a dragon  knocked their door, as the Tullys did.

The Great Houses in general weren't fully invested in the Dance at first, which is why both parties had to meet their demands.

 

As for the question, I think that they started to intermarry with the Reach top  Houses when those realized the Tyrells were there to stay forever and i suppose that happened somewhere between Lyonel Tyrell and Leo Tyrell. By that point any dream of removing the upjumped stewards would've been dead for good... Until the Black Dragon gave  it life again... Only to def die a year later.

[John Suburbs]

On 2/27/2020 at 8:28 AM, Dreadscythe95 said:

After reading Fire and Blood, Dunk & Egg and combined these timelines with ASOIAF I kind of felt that the place of Power that House Tyrell holds in Westeros in A Storm of Swords and forward is a big climb that started from the year that The Tyrells became lords of The Reach. If you combine the way that Martin has written them, their words (Growing Strong) and their politics it feels like Martin wanted to write a House that took power by making the right choices and being at the right place the right time, being unerestimated by the other Houses of Westeros and climbing the steps of power in the Shadows till in the end they managed to finally aproach the Iron Throne and the Influence and prestige they want to obtain.  Martin in F&B clearly shows us that other Houses didn't consider them a big thread considering the power they possess and they still manage to maintain their power with the least losses in every situation. One Redwyne even said to King Jahaerys that The Tyrells are idiots. I always noticed that Martin approached The Great Houses of Westeros like human types of personalities and that House Tyrell is that one friend that we all like but still consider to be a mild person yet in reality he always has a big influence in our gang.

What do you guys think is Martin's approach to House Tyrell from Aegon Conquest to ADWD?

The Tyrells only became lords of Highgarden 300 years ago. Before that, the Reach, under the Gardeners was the undisputed hegemon on the continent. It could easily field armies that were twice, if not thrice, the size of any other kingdom, and it had the strongest navy as well. It's telling that despite the fact that the Reach is nothing but league upon league of open farmland and gently rolling hills, the only time Highgarden has ever fallen was when internal political divisions had divided the principal houses and the Reach was invaded simultaneously by the westerlands, stormlands and Dorne.

So when the Tyrells took over, they set about securing the political stability needed to keep the Reach united, which mean marrying into the other lead houses as thoroughly as possible. Primarily, this meant the Hightowers and Redwynes, but you can also see smatterings of Beesburys, Fossoways, Tarleys and others. All the other great houses married their banners as well, but for the Reach it meant that no one could challenge their might and their lands would remain safe even if social/political order broke down in the rest of the realm.

So for the Tullys, the power climb began as soon as they became lords. But this was a continuation of the power status quo that Highgarden had exercised for thousands of years.

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

On 2/27/2020 at 8:28 AM, Dreadscythe95 said:

After reading Fire and Blood, Dunk & Egg and combined these timelines with ASOIAF I kind of felt that the place of Power that House Tyrell holds in Westeros in A Storm of Swords and forward is a big climb that started from the year that The Tyrells became lords of The Reach. If you combine the way that Martin has written them, their words (Growing Strong) and their politics it feels like Martin wanted to write a House that took power by making the right choices and being at the right place the right time, being unerestimated by the other Houses of Westeros and climbing the steps of power in the Shadows till in the end they managed to finally aproach the Iron Throne and the Influence and prestige they want to obtain.  Martin in F&B clearly shows us that other Houses didn't consider them a big thread considering the power they possess and they still manage to maintain their power with the least losses in every situation. One Redwyne even said to King Jahaerys that The Tyrells are idiots. I always noticed that Martin approached The Great Houses of Westeros like human types of personalities and that House Tyrell is that one friend that we all like but still consider to be a mild person yet in reality he always has a big influence in our gang.

What do you guys think is Martin's approach to House Tyrell from Aegon Conquest to ADWD?

There isn't a multi-generational plot going on.  Just look how Tywin and his children are so far apart.  They're not on the same page.  They're not even reading the same book.  Tywin himself was very different from his father.  Eddard Stark was a dutiful man of honor.  We can't say the same for his boys.  Jon and Robb together doesn't have enough honor to fill up a flea's condom.  It is nearly impossible to keep focused on a specific objective for three hundred years.  Children are not like their parents.   The noble families are in competition and want to generally increase their holdings.  But it does not mean they have a specific goal in mind beyond something that general.  One person might get the notion to work his way to the throne but the children might be content to sit around and get drunk.  Others like the Freys are content to accumulate wealth.  Most don't want to risk war because it could mean losing what they have.  House Tyrell falls into the Frey category.  Content to accumulate wealth and enjoy the bounty of their lands. 

[Dreadscythe95]

9 hours ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

There isn't a multi-generational plot going on.  Just look how Tywin and his children are so far apart.  They're not on the same page.  They're not even reading the same book.  Tywin himself was very different from his father.  Eddard Stark was a dutiful man of honor.  We can't say the same for his boys.  Jon and Robb together doesn't have enough honor to fill up a flea's condom.  It is nearly impossible to keep focused on a specific objective for three hundred years.  Children are not like their parents.   The noble families are in competition and want to generally increase their holdings.  But it does not mean they have a specific goal in mind beyond something that general.  One person might get the notion to work his way to the throne but the children might be content to sit around and get drunk.  Others like the Freys are content to accumulate wealth.  Most don't want to risk war because it could mean losing what they have.  House Tyrell falls into the Frey category.  Content to accumulate wealth and enjoy the bounty of their lands. 

Yeah, I don't actually mean that all these generations are in one big plot but like many said above I mean that House Tyrell ia following a specific policy/plan to Grow Strong and consolidate it's power not only in The Rech but in Westeros in general.

[Tyrion1991]

I think there’s a better case for the Hightower’s having some sort of conspiracy. 

They control the second city of Westeros, its cultural (former religious centre and home of Maesters) and economic artery. Not to mention it’s popultion.

Theyre married into most of the Reach houses including the Tyrell’s. No other house has these links with maybe the exception of the Stark/Tully/Vale axis.

They are as rich as the Lannister’s, have a fleet through Redwyne and a large army.

They have a mysterious heritage and their leader has sealed himself away with his palantyr...I mean glass candles studying the esoteric and with an eye on the wall.

They have been involved in almost every anti Targaryen uprising with the exception of Roberts Rebellion. 

Their words “we light the way” along the mystery of Battle Isle with its impossible construction of black stone is very suspicious. As is a possible Valyrian heritage before the conquest; which is all extremely suspicious given the AA prophecies.

I think it would be a massive shame if Euron just kills them because George doesn’t have the time to play all this out. I think he could do some really cool stuff with this faction. 

[The Young Maester]

I think the Tyrells just played it smart during the years. They are aware that out of all the great houses they are easily replaceable. For that reason, they had to be cautious about what they do.