Why are Valyrians and Qartheen so incredibly pale and white?

[Wall Flower]

2 hours ago, The Hoare said:

Are the valyrians really whiter than most westerosi? In the Sworn Sword Egg managed to get a nice tan

"In Dorne he went about bare-chested, and turned brown as a Dornishman. It is his dragon blood, Dunk told himself."

That's probably because Egg's grandmother and mother are Dornish (Mariah Martell and Dyanna Dayne). Egg's uncle Baelor Breakspear was disparaged because of his more Dornish looks.

[Rondo]

It's aesthetically desirable.  They had advanced science and magic.  So why not change their genes to make themselves light of skin.  

[sweetsunray]

10 hours ago, The Hoare said:

Are the valyrians really whiter than most westerosi? In the Sworn Sword Egg managed to get a nice tan

"In Dorne he went about bare-chested, and turned brown as a Dornishman. It is his dragon blood, Dunk told himself."

There are many forms and types of albinism, depending on which gene has mutated and what type of mutation on that gene. Albinism is grossly split across Oculocutaneous albinism (eyes, skin and hair) and ocular albinism (eyes only, potentially ears). Oculocutaneous albinism has variable degrees of impact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oculocutaneous_albinism

The most significant pick of OCA's from the 7 (with their own subvariations)

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OCA1 is caused by mutations of the tyrosinase gene, and can occur in two variations.

• The first is OCA1a, and means that the organism cannot synthesize melanin whatsoever.^[6] The hair is usually white (often translucent) and the skin is very pale. Vision usually ranges from 20/200 to 20/400.
• The second is OCA1b, which has several subtypes itself.^[7]
  • Some individuals with OCA1b can tan and also develop pigment in the hair.^[8]
  • One subtype of OCA1b is called OCA1b TS (temperature sensitive), where the tyrosinase can only function below a certain temperature, which causes the body hair in cooler body regions to develop pigment (i.e. get darker). (An equivalent mutation produces the points pattern in Siamese cats.^[9])
  • Another variant of OCA1b, called Albinism, yellow mutant type, is more common among the Amish than in other populations. It results in blonde hair and the eventual development of skin pigmentation during infancy, though at birth is difficult to distinguish from other types.^[7][10] About 1 in 40,000 people have some form of OCA1.^[11]

OCA2: The most common type of albinism is caused by mutation of the P gene. People with OCA2 generally have more pigment and better vision than those with OCA1, but cannot tan like some with OCA1b. A little pigment can develop in freckles or moles.^[8] People with OCA2 usually have fair skin, but are often not as pale as OCA1. They have pale blonde to golden, strawberry blonde, or even brown hair, and most commonly blue eyes. Affected people of African descent usually have a different phenotype (appearance): yellow hair, pale skin, and blue, gray or hazel eyes. About 1 in 15,000 people have OCA2.^[12][11] The gene MC1R doesn't cause OCA2, but does affect its presentation.

 

Here's a link to the various types of ocular albinism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocular_albinism

It's possible that George doesn't know about this, doesn't care about this, but stop treating albinism as existing only as a stereotypical form. "Oh, he can tan, so doesnt have albinism" is an incorrect argument when discussing the mutation.

 

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

On 8/6/2020 at 5:20 PM, Only 89 selfies today said:

The high born people of Westeros value family history.  The Targaryens were one of the ruling families in Old Valyria.  No other family alive at the current story time period can boast such illustrious ancestry as House Targaryen.  The Targaryens are as close to gods as there are. 

Very close indeed. Especially if they are descended from the clan which ruled the Great Empire of the Dawn. 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

There are many forms and types of albinism, depending on which gene has mutated and what type of mutation on that gene. Albinism is grossly split across Oculocutaneous albinism (eyes, skin and hair) and ocular albinism (eyes only, potentially ears). Oculocutaneous albinism has variable degrees of impact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oculocutaneous_albinism

The most significant pick of OCA's from the 7 (with their own subvariations)

Here's a link to the various types of ocular albinism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocular_albinism

It's possible that George doesn't know about this, doesn't care about this, but stop treating albinism as existing only as a stereotypical form. "Oh, he can tan, so doesnt have albinism" is an incorrect argument when discussing the mutation.

Thanks for adding some substance to this topic. I tried to tell people earlier that the Valyrians effectively qualify as albinos simply by the way they are described, never mind whether the author says they are or not (hence, the fact that many pictures of real world albinos look exactly the way the Targaryens are portrayed in pictures - this goes especially with those Targaryens whose hair is described to be so pale that it almost looks white, like in Maekar or Jaehaerys I's son Aemon).

And, yes, George didn't have any clues about albinism when he made Bloodraven an albino of an albino family without realizing that this was overkill and then even decided to make him an (eventually) one-eyed super archer when most albinos have severe eye problems and shouldn't be capable of pulling off Bloodraven's Redgrass Field stunts.

Bottom line is, the author didn't really bother to research this topic properly before writing about it.

In TMK, one-eyed Brynden should squint over his parchments, using a huge monocle to read and sign those death warrants, and the entire archery thing shouldn't have happened at all ... or the author should have used it happening anyway as a contradiction/impossibility that further establishes that Bloodraven is a sorcerer because apparently he can be a great archer despite everybody knowing he has poor eyesight.

And to be sure, explaining away this stuff with 'this is fantasy literature' doesn't really work for me considering George usually tries to use real world concepts as they are - lords and kings and horses and food and other things usually are just the same they are in our world. If things get 'fantasy aspects' then they are new concepts or it made clear that things differ from real world aspects there (like it is with how moon tea is a more effective means of birth control and abortion than equivalents in the real world). If we have characters looking like albinos and another character explicitly mentioned to be an albino then we also have reason to expect those people suffer from the same kind of problems as albinos do in the real world. Like we have reason to expect that kings are rulers and horses have four legs without it being explicitly mentioned.

[Lord Varys]

On 8/6/2020 at 3:36 PM, sweetsunray said:

The Valyrians on the other hand are obsessed with "looks", "appearances". If a child doesn't look Valyrian, even if they have a Valyrian parent and are offspring of a marriage, the rumors of them being bastards arise.

Are you talking about Westeros here? Certainly not Valyria or Valyrian Free Cities considering we don't know how the issue there is handled, but in Westeros nobody is seen as a bastard just because he doesn't favor a Valyrian parent. Nobody said Rhaegar's Rhaenys or Baelor Breakspear was a bastard, and Prince Aenys looked Valyrian and was still rumored to be a bastard because he was weak and sickly child, unworthy of being sired by as impressive and powerful a male specimen as Aegon the Conqueror.

On 8/6/2020 at 3:36 PM, sweetsunray said:

I agree though that ultimately it hardly matters. George picked the appearances for symbolic color schemes, to associate characters with certain characteristics that are important for the story, more than for the world building.

George very much likes his albino people. The pale-haired fellow/woman with platinum blond or golden hair (i.e. what one could call Lannister or Targaryen prototypes) are present in his entire work. These are just types he likes or fetishizes if you will. The same way, we have variations of Ashara Dayne/Elizabeth Taylor popping up in his work, or some women who can count as precursors to Catelyn/Sansa.

This folk all appear in different contexts and roles throughout George's work. There is nothing symbolic to all that if you broaden the spectrum enough. I mean, one of those albino folk from the earlier works in Arkin Ruark from Dying of the Light, the proto-Littlefinger. In ASoIaF pretty much the same character gets different looks.

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And, yes, George didn't have any clues about albinism when he made Bloodraven an albino of an albino family without realizing that this was overkill

I wouldn't go that far. It's possible George didn't care, but he has written in albino's like Bloodraven before (Armaggedon Rag comes to mind immediately), so he researched it. If the form of albinism is determined in our world through genetical testing, and readers today only consider someone having albinism if they look like BR, then it seems completely normal to me that George writes a world in which people are completely ignorant of the various degrees it can have an impact, including those potentially suffering from some type of albinism, and only point at BR being an albino. In that sense, I think it's completely realistic of him to include an albinistic family not having a clue they are, nor do other people realize it.

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and then even decided to make him an (eventually) one-eyed super archer when most albinos have severe eye problems and shouldn't be capable of pulling off Bloodraven's Redgrass Field stunts.

Yes, in the real world that wouldn't be possible, but then in the real world red-eyed people usually don't have green dreams nor are greenseers. Perhaps this is the reason he makes red eyed people those gifted with greensight and greenseeing. Sort of like Arya, their physical handicap propelled them to develop their magical talents far quicker at a very young age. BR is a skinchanger and greenseer. He doesn't need to rely on his own eyes to shoot accurately, and I doubt he learned to skinchange nor became a greenseer mid-life, but suspect he developed it when he was still a child, like the Stark kids do.

[Lord Varys]

44 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I wouldn't go that far. It's possible George didn't care, but he has written in albino's like Bloodraven before (Armaggedon Rag comes to mind immediately), so he researched it. If the form of albinism is determined in our world through genetical testing, and readers today only consider someone having albinism if they look like BR, then it seems completely normal to me that George writes a world in which people are completely ignorant of the various degrees it can have an impact, including those potentially suffering from some type of albinism, and only point at BR being an albino. In that sense, I think it's completely realistic of him to include an albinistic family not having a clue they are, nor do other people realize it.

Oh, the issue is more that he didn't seem to grasp or care that the Valyrians/Targaryens also qualify as albinos the way they are described - and the Qartheen, too, of course - and it thus doesn't make that much sense to mark Bloodraven as an albino when he actually comes from an albino family.

I mean, if you look how those traits go, then only the albinos who don't have any iris pigmentation have eyes that appear read - the others often have various blueish or pinkish colors which effectively fits the blue/purple eye color of the Valyrians.

Bloodraven is just a special albino from a family of albinos.

And to be sure - on a symbolic level it makes no sense to associate those Valyrian/Targaryen looks with fire and the geographical south. Both because it is kind of silly to have an albino people down there, and because red hair and red eyes and dark skin better evoke warm climates and are more connected to fire and heat. We sort of get that with the wildlings associating red hair with fire, and Moqorro looking so black that people assume he may have been burned.

Those albino types would have been great Starks/wildlings just as that pale white skin and white hair would also be very fitting for the Others. We do see that with Val who pretty much looks like a Targaryen princess.

44 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes, in the real world that wouldn't be possible, but then in the real world red-eyed people usually don't have green dreams nor are greenseers. Perhaps this is the reason he makes red eyed people those gifted with greensight and greenseeing. Sort of like Arya, their physical handicap propelled them to develop their magical talents far quicker at a very young age. BR is a skinchanger and greenseer. He doesn't need to rely on his own eyes to shoot accurately, and I doubt he learned to skinchange nor became a greenseer mid-life, but suspect he developed it when he was still a child, like the Stark kids do.

Greenseers are specially marked among the Children by having different eyes (but not necessarily red eyes) and shorter lifespans (clearly not the case for Bloodraven in relation to a human lifespan). Nor is Bran marked in any way as a greenseer. Bloodraven doesn't seem to have any problems with his eyesight (else both Maynard Plumm and Brynden himself should have walked around with eye glasses) nor is there any indication he already had discovered his innate magical talents by the time of TMK. He wouldn't need a glamor to infiltrate Whitewalls if he had the ability to skinchange ... not to mention that he wouldn't need spies of any kind of he were already a greenseer.

Since George refused to give either Maynard or Brynden a pet or familiar in TMK - a raven perching on his shoulder, a dog following wherever he went (and, as Dunk could have noticed, showing up curious places at Whitewalls).

More importantly, if Bloodraven had had such powers back in this day and age he would have become king. Nobody could have withstood him, nobody could have stopped him, and his methods do deal with his enemies wouldn't have been as crude as they were (arrows and executions aren't the ways skinchangers and greenseers would use to kill).

Instead, it seems the man only learned what he was at the Wall when his petty dreams of power and glory were all done.

That being said, we cannot completely dismiss the possibility that he fooled around with the skinchanger stuff while still down in the south. But if he did, it would have been secret stuff and not very effective. The greenseer stuff most likely only came when he disappeared beyond the Wall.

[The Hoare]

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

It's possible that George doesn't know about this, doesn't care about this, but stop treating albinism as existing only as a stereotypical form. "Oh, he can tan, so doesnt have albinism" is an incorrect argument when discussing the mutation.

I'm not the one claiming that valyrians were albinos. Apart from the hair, I don't think the valyrians have any similarity with albinos.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, The Hoare said:

I'm not the one claiming that valyrians were albinos. Apart from the hair, I don't think the valyrians have any similarity with albinos.

That wasn't my point. You used the argument, "They tan," to argue they're not albinos. It's not a good argument, because you're basing it entirely on a stereotype, which is only one form of albinism (the most known one). Bittersteel can be an occular albino (only his eyes are affected), which makes sense, since Brackens and Blackwoods have intermarried in the past aeons, and thus both can be considered carriers of an albinism mutation. The Daynes may have another or even the same type of First Men albinism, but living on an island they're more likely to express it as a phenotype (genetical drift promoting recessive genes to become an often occurring phenotype) than the Blackwoods and Brackens do, except for when they have offspring with Targaryens.

Either Bloodraven is an albino because the mutation originated with him, or because both parents passend on a recessive albinism gene of a far older mutation.

[The Hoare]

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

That wasn't my point. You used the argument, "They tan," to argue they're not albinos. It's not a good argument, because you're basing it entirely on a stereotype, which is only one form of albinism (the most known one).

No, I was arguing that they're not really that "white". I didn't mentioned albinism.

[sweetsunray]

2 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

No, I was arguing that they're not really that "white". I didn't mentioned albinism.

Okay.

Does the ability to tan negate not having pale or light skin? I have chestnut red hair and dark freckles (all over my face, shoulders, arms). Out of the sun, during winter time, I'm paler than most people (whiter). I still tan and bronze real well. Most people, including professionals, are often surprised at how quick and deeply I can bronze without even getting a sunburn if I use to appropriate protection, within a week. (I don't have albinism BTW, but clearly my melanin production is not evenly distributed). 

Tanning or the ability to tan does not negate having pale, light skin or being "lighter" or "whiter" than the majority of other people.

[The Hoare]

10 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Okay.

Does the ability to tan negate not having pale or light skin? I have chestnut red hair and dark freckles (all over my face, shoulders, arms). Out of the sun, during winter time, I'm paler than most people (whiter). I still tan and bronze real well. Most people, including professionals, are often surprised at how quick and deeply I can bronze without even getting a sunburn if I use to appropriate protection, within a week. (I don't have albinism BTW, but clearly my melanin production is not evenly distributed). 

Tanning or the ability to tan does not negate having pale, light skin or being "lighter" or "whiter" than the majority of other people.

No, I was merely questioning the "incredibly" pale whiteness of Valyrians. They don't seem to be unnaturaly white

[James West]

On 7/22/2020 at 8:45 PM, Roswell said:

We cannot know for certain but my guess is the presence of an albino-like gene.   Although being pale is not the same as the complete lack of melanin.  The Targaryens are very beautiful and thus will not have the freckles or imperfections of those who are sensitive to the light.  

Physical perfection

[James West]

On 7/28/2020 at 7:36 PM, Bowen Marsh said:

To underline their uniqueness.  They have physical characteristics which make them different from the other families in Westeros.  I do not think there is any internal reason except that it serves the story.  They live in a tightly controlled society.  The nobles rule by right of class and held themselves apart from the folks they ruled over.  The Targaryens have these unique looks to make them different from the other families.  This difference is one reason why their rule was accepted.  They were not ruling over peers and equals.  The Targaryens had no equal.  The nobles and the commons respected that difference.  It is easier on your honor to take orders from demigods.  Your pride will be wounded if you had to take orders from your peers.  

The Targaryens have no equal.  They are the first family of A Song of Ice and Fire.  Aenar was wise enough to listen to Daenys.  And the family was thankfully spared from the doom.

[James West]

On 8/6/2020 at 5:20 PM, Only 89 selfies today said:

The high born people of Westeros value family history.  The Targaryens were one of the ruling families in Old Valyria.  No other family alive at the current story time period can boast such illustrious ancestry as House Targaryen.  The Targaryens are as close to gods as there are. 

True enough

[sweetsunray]

7 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

No, I was merely questioning the "incredibly" pale whiteness of Valyrians. They don't seem to be unnaturaly white

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Naerys Targaryen

[Note: The following continues GRRM's series of descriptions of notable Targaryens (and Targaryen bastards) for Amoka.]

The sister of King Aegon the Unworthy and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight was beautiful as well, but hers was a very fine and delicate beauty, almost unworldy. She was a wisp of a woman, smaller even than Dany (to whom she bears a certain resemblence), very slender, with big purple eyes and fine, pale, porcelain skin, near translucent. Naerys had none of Dany's strength, however. She was sickly as a child and almost died in the cradle; thereafter she found most physical activity to be very taxing. She loved music and poetry, played the harp very well, enjoyed sewing and embroidering. She was devout as well, and often found solace in the pages of The Seven-Pointed Star. After the birth of her son, she begged Aegon to have the Faith release her from her marriage vows so she could become a septa, but he refused. Naerys dressed well, but simply, and seldom wore her crown or any other jewelry. Though she had the silver-gold hair of the Targaryens, she often bound it up beneath a hair net or concealed it beneath a cowl. She ate but little and was painfully thin, almost emaciated. Her marriage was a very unhappy one, and it was said that only her son Daeron and her brother Aemon knew how to make her laugh. You will probably want to paint her sitting in a window seat, sewing or reading, with a sad and tired look on her face. (SSM: https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1463/

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Goose pimples rose on her pale skin as the coldness crept up her thighs and kissed her lower lips. (aGoT, Dany 5)

Even across the length of the crowded hall, Viserys should have been conspicuous with his pale skin, silvery hair, and beggar's rags, but she did not see him anywhere. (aGoT, Dany V)

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Viserra was the most beautiful of Queen Alysanne Targaryen's daughters. She had deep purple eyes and silver-gold hair, flawless white skin, and fine features (from the wiki page, summarizing Fire & Blood description)

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The blood of Valyria still runs strong in Lys, where even the smallfolk oft boast pale skin, silver-gold hair, and the purple, lilac, and pale blue eyes of the dragonlords of old. (tWoIaF, The Free Cities - The Quarrelsome Daughters: Myr, Lys and Tyrosh

George rarely describes the Targaryen men as having this pale skin, but refers to it in the phrase "features of the house of the dragon" or "Valyrian" (referring to the tWoIaF quote), such as Daeron Targaryen, son of Viserys 1, and others.

[Lollygag]

All kinds of non-Targ characters are described as having cream, porcelain, milk, white, pale, fair whatever skin. In that context, the Targ's skin color isn't described as being unusual.

[Lord Varys]

33 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

All kinds of non-Targ characters are described as having cream, porcelain, milk, white, pale, fair whatever skin. In that context, the Targ's skin color isn't described as being unusual.

There are many light-skinned people in Westeros, but pale skin is but one of the albino traits the Targaryens and the other Valyrians have. It is the skin, the hair, and the eyes.

As @sweetsunray and I pointed out - not all albinos have to have completely white hair or those red eyes. And you can double-check that with a simple albino picture search. Most of the people you find that way look as if they were Valyrians/Targaryens taken out of Martinworld.

I even suggested that they should look for some albino actors to play some Targaryens in the new show. That would look better than those stupid wigs and add more diversity to the cast.

And to be clear on the whole geographic thing - unless I'm mistaken historically, dark skin was really an evolutionary disadvantage in places close to the arctic circle where vitamin D deficiency can become a serious problem in the darker periods of the year. Hence, population develops in a certain manner while there are no artificial ways to resolve that problem. But this didn't happen everywhere, since a strong meat diet of the type observed by many peoples living in the arctic - actually can provide you with enough vitamin D.

On the other hand I'm not sure that lighter skinned people cannot thrive in equatorial regions - sunburns don't kill you, and skin cancer usually only kills you after you had the chance to have a couple of children, especially if you take precautions like covering your skin to prevent sunburns (which albinos born and living in hot places most likely did since time immemorial).

[Quoth the raven,]

On 7/28/2020 at 7:36 PM, Bowen Marsh said:

To underline their uniqueness.  They have physical characteristics which make them different from the other families in Westeros.  I do not think there is any internal reason except that it serves the story.  They live in a tightly controlled society.  The nobles rule by right of class and held themselves apart from the folks they ruled over.  The Targaryens have these unique looks to make them different from the other families.  This difference is one reason why their rule was accepted.  They were not ruling over peers and equals.  The Targaryens had no equal.  The nobles and the commons respected that difference.  It is easier on your honor to take orders from demigods.  Your pride will be wounded if you had to take orders from your peers.  

This whole series is really about family.  Loyalty and devotion to the family of origin.  Look at the terrible things done by Jon Snow because he was motivated to help the Starks.  Theon wants his own family to belong to and did evil things in hopes of getting the Greyjoys to accept him.  Family is at the core of this epic story.  George Martin wanted to give the families their special traits.  The Targaryens being at the top of the food chain would get the most things which are special to them.  An Elric lookalike race of beings from a continent that sank long ago.  George Martin was inspired by Michael Moorcock's lead character.  The Qartheen are a strange people but if Valyrians can have light skin why not them.