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Is Tyrion a bigamist?

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11 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

It's less clear to me whether Jaime was formally heir. Ned worrying about him being Warden of both West and East seemed a bit of early installment weirdness. But it doesn't seem like Jaime had expected to be heir. Tywin might opportunistically try to claim Barristan's dismissal is a precedent, but I really don't know what he planned earlier. Even in a world where Jaime was permitted to break the rule against holding any lands, he still can't have heirs of his own.

Why would he kill a septon but leave Tysha alive? And again, Tyrion recounts the septons saying it was like the marriage had never happened (indicating they did in fact "find out about it"), not his father saying that.

IIRC Tywin actually does claim Barristans dismissal as precedent, but that's in a private conversation between him and Jaime, and Jaime refuses because he just wants to be Lord Commander.   Somewhere around Jaime II AFFC.

 

Tysha alive doesn't seem like a huge deal to me because she's just a commoner and if it's her word against Tywins we know who would win. Also if she did push that envelope then that's when she would be killed. SFDanny also pointed out that any kid she has could be denied as Tyrions offspring because she got down with like 100 people in the barracks.

 

As for Tyrions recollection of what the septons said.. good question! I don't have the answer, but it still seems strange to me that Tywin wouldn't kill them just to bury it.

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On 9/5/2020 at 7:30 PM, Sir Tumbleweed said:

As for Tyrions recollection of what the septons said.. good question! I don't have the answer, but it still seems strange to me that Tywin wouldn't kill them just to bury it.

I think Westeros is a classist enough society that Tywin doesn't have to: other people who matter AGREE with Tywin on how things should be.

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That is pretty much a pointless question. Nobody in the books viewed Tyrion as being married when he married Sansa Stark, so he wasn't married.

And this isn't a world where some commoner like Tysha does have the means to challenge a person as highborn and powerful as a Lannister of Casterly Rock. Even if Tysha came back, nobody would listen to whatever she had to say ... unless she was backed by, say, Daenerys and her dragons or person of similar standing.

The marriage as such seems to have been valid enough for Lord Tywin to have to do something to unmake it. It might be that the whore story was part of his way to unmake it, assuming he used that pretext to tell the Faith to annul it.

Technically I'd assume Tywin would not have forgotten to do that, considering that Tyrion 'sort of being technically married' certainly would damage his chances in the marriage department even more. Men would be very reluctant to offer their daughters to a dwarf who allegedly who, according to rumor, was sort of in a marriage that had not been properly set aside.

And we do know Tywin tried to make matches for Tyrion.

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Tysha is a ruined person by now.  She is not going to have much interest in seeing Tyrion again.  Besides, she is a person of no importance in the eyes of the nobles.  But should someone back her, as Varys is saying above, the game could change.  Tysha herself may not want to see Tyrion again but somebody like Manderly or Baelish might want to contest his marriage to Sansa.  They have the resources to find Tysha and use her a puppet.

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18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And this isn't a world where some commoner like Tysha does have the means to challenge a person as highborn and powerful as a Lannister of Casterly Rock. Even if Tysha came back, nobody would listen to whatever she had to say ... unless she was backed by, say, Daenerys and her dragons or person of similar standing.

The marriage as such seems to have been valid enough for Lord Tywin to have to do something to unmake it. It might be that the whore story was part of his way to unmake it, assuming he used that pretext to tell the Faith to annul it.

Technically I'd assume Tywin would not have forgotten to do that, considering that Tyrion 'sort of being technically married' certainly would damage his chances in the marriage department even more. Men would be very reluctant to offer their daughters to a dwarf who allegedly who, according to rumor, was sort of in a marriage that had not been properly set aside.

One doesn't ask for an annulment of a marriage if it is a hoax. Everything Tywin did was predicated on destroying a real marriage through convincing his son to believe the marriage was never real. We know that to not be the case. Jaime's confession tells us so.

There is no annulment. That would be an admission that there was a real marriage to annul. There is Tywin taking care of it with the Faith. Which likely means he "took care" of the Septon involved. Bribery, intimidation, or murder seems the most likely methods of making the marriage seem "like it never happened." Tywin was more than capable of all three.

As such, Tywin didn't "forget" to annul anything. He never asked for one because to do so would have been counter to all his actions regarding the marriage. His story to the few who knew anything happened was the same as Jaime's lie. It is the lie, after all, Tywin made up himself and forced Jaime to tell and Tyrion to believe.

If Tywin had actually asked for an annulment through the official channels of the Faith, it would be an admission the marriage was not a hoax, but was a real marriage. A disastrous and humiliating admission in Tywin's view. It would also place the power to get such an annulment in the hands of Tyrion. He would have had to say the marriage never was consummated, and Tysha would have to say the same. Perhaps Tysha could be intimidated into saying so, but Tyrion? There is no chance in the world Tywin would allow this to be dragged out in the open and risk the possibility his hated dwarf son would refuse to go along.

The only point we agree upon here, LV, is that Tysha did not have the means, and more importantly, the power to challenge the lies and actions of the High Lord of Casterly Rock. Instead she could just be ground up and thrown away because no one would listen to her. That is not, however, true about Tyrion. Tyrion is the acknowledged son of Tywin. He maybe shunned and ridiculed, but he could have stood before the High Septon, and told the truth about his marriage. If he still believed his marriage was real.

The real question here is what will Tyrion do if he ever finds Tysha? Do they have a child? If so, what does that mean concerning the future High Lord or Lady of Casterly Rock? It certainly is a possibility that Tyrion comes back to Westeros with Dany and her dragons. If so, Tyrion's claim to Casterly Rock is very much alive. Patricide be damned. It would be fitting if little Lady Lanna from Braavos ends up the new ruler of the Rock.

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3 hours ago, SFDanny said:

One doesn't ask for an annulment of a marriage if it is a hoax. Everything Tywin did was predicated on destroying a real marriage through convincing his son to believe the marriage was never real. We know that to not be the case. Jaime's confession tells us so.

There is no annulment. That would be an admission that there was a real marriage to annul. There is Tywin taking care of it with the Faith. Which likely means he "took care" of the Septon involved. Bribery, intimidation, or murder seems the most likely methods of making the marriage seem "like it never happened." Tywin was more than capable of all three.

As such, Tywin didn't "forget" to annul anything. He never asked for one because to do so would have been counter to all his actions regarding the marriage. His story to the few who knew anything happened was the same as Jaime's lie. It is the lie, after all, Tywin made up himself and forced Jaime to tell and Tyrion to believe.

An annulment of a marriage is the official verdict that the marriage never took place, was never valid in the first place. Tysha was rather publicly raped and paid as a whore by Lord Tywin's garrison and her 'husband', Tyrion Lannister, himself.

The idea would be that Tywin informed the septon who married his son and Tysha that Tysha was a lying whore employed by Jaime Lannister and subsequently never intended to marry his son.

That may have been a good enough reason to erase the marriage in the eyes of the public and the Faith.

This affair was not secret or anything in the Westerlands.

3 hours ago, SFDanny said:

If Tywin had actually asked for an annulment through the official channels of the Faith, it would be an admission the marriage was not a hoax, but was a real marriage. A disastrous and humiliating admission in Tywin's view. It would also place the power to get such an annulment in the hands of Tyrion. He would have had to say the marriage never was consummated, and Tysha would have to say the same. Perhaps Tysha could be intimidated into saying so, but Tyrion? There is no chance in the world Tywin would allow this to be dragged out in the open and risk the possibility his hated dwarf son would refuse to go along.

There is no reason to believe that anyone would ever ask Tyrion for anything in some kind of open court thing. We do know that such things can be decided by 'a council of the Faith', and there should be more than enough septons and septas for that in the Westerlands, under Lord Tywin's thumb and power. I mean, Sansa and Littlefinger also do not plan to petition the High Septon to annul Sansa's marriage. They plan to do that in the Vale or in the North.

Jaime and Tywin telling them that Tysha was a whore could have been enough, depending what concept of marriage impostors the Westerosi would have ... which Tysha, as a whore being paid to seduce Tyrion, would be if she used her assignment as an opportunity to marry him.

The reason why I think this marriage has to have been dealt with in some official capacity is simply that a nobleman still being sort of married is going to pose a problem for him in the marriage market.

3 hours ago, SFDanny said:

The only point we agree upon here, LV, is that Tysha did not have the means, and more importantly, the power to challenge the lies and actions of the High Lord of Casterly Rock. Instead she could just be ground up and thrown away because no one would listen to her. That is not, however, true about Tyrion. Tyrion is the acknowledged son of Tywin. He maybe shunned and ridiculed, but he could have stood before the High Septon, and told the truth about his marriage. If he still believed his marriage was real.

The real question here is what will Tyrion do if he ever finds Tysha? Do they have a child? If so, what does that mean concerning the future High Lord or Lady of Casterly Rock? It certainly is a possibility that Tyrion comes back to Westeros with Dany and her dragons. If so, Tyrion's claim to Casterly Rock is very much alive. Patricide be damned. It would be fitting if little Lady Lanna from Braavos ends up the new ruler of the Rock.

Tyrion is never going to be Lord of Casterly Rock unless dragons put him there, and help him crush most or all of his Lannister cousins and kin. If that were to happen, he could make pretty much anyone his successor. If they suffer Tywin's ill-begotten son and murderer as their lord, they will suffer anything. But I'm not holding my breath for Tysha and Lanna ever forgiving Tyrion for how he treated Tysha. He will have to pay for that, not be rewarded for that by winning a wife and daughter. And to be sure ... while Lanna could technically be Tyrion's daughter, she doesn't have to be, nor does Tysha ever have to admit that this is the case.

But for the novel the status of the marriage is completely irrelevant, in fact. If Tyrion and/or Tysha would still want to believe they are married and ended up in positions where they could make their voices being heard then they simply would be married, never mind what Tywin did or did not accomplish back in the day.

Tyrion and Sansa aren't really married as per the Westerosi definition of marriage considering the marriage was never consummated.

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17 hours ago, SFDanny said:

There is no annulment. That would be an admission that there was a real marriage to annul.

No, as a common grounds for annulment is that the marriage was never valid in the first place. A divorce treats a marriage as having been real in the past, but no longer so in the present (analogous to a spouse dying, with their children remaining legitimate). An annulment is a declaration that there was no marriage.

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Tyrion and Sansa aren't really married as per the Westerosi definition of marriage considering the marriage was never consummated.

I think if we want to be niggling about it, they were considered to be married on the assumption that they would consummate their marriage. But if either publicly declared that there was no consummation, then it would be said that the last step of marriage was never taken and they retroactively become never married. It's an open secret that it wasn't consummated, but it's not official.

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On 9/2/2020 at 3:28 AM, sweetsunray said:

Though neither swore the NW vows

 Maester Aemon was sworn to the Night's Watch as well as the Citidel according to Sam

Quote

He was a great man. A maester of the Citadel, chained and sworn, and Sworn Brother of the Night’s Watch, ever faithful

(AFfC Ch35 Samwell IV)

And by his own account

Quote

“Only a maester of the Citadel, bound in service to Castle Black and the Night’s Watch.

(AGoT Ch60 Jon VIII)

In the same chapter Jon notes

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The maester was a hundred years old, and a high officer of the Night’s Watch;

I think I remember a point where Aemon said himself that he was 'doubly sworn', as a maester of the Citidel and a brother of the Night's Watch, but I have not been able to find it. 

It is possible that Jon and Sam both have misunderstood Maester Aemon's relationship with the Night's Watch, although Maester Aemon's presence at the Sept before the swearing-in ceremony, and at the trial of Jon Snow presided over by Janos Slynt, and his place at the High Table when Tyrion brings crabs, all seem to me to support it. His presence at the chosing of the Lord Commander in particular indicates he is a sworn brother, as anybody other than a sworn brothers was excluded to ensure there was no real or perceived interference to the independence of the Black Brothers. Given Stannis is hovering around outside, and Jon was not even in the running for the first counts, it seems unlikely that it would go unnoticed that the final count was overseen by a blind outsider.

Still, Jon's perception of things comes coloured with his own biases. He has no reverence for Lady Catelyn's gods. To him, the drunk that officiates over the Wall's sept is "Cellador". Lord Commander Mormont and Melisandre both refer to the septon as "Celladar".

ETA

Ok,  just found this

Quote

I was five-and-thirty and had been a maester of the chain for sixteen years. Egg wanted me to help him rule, but I knew my place was here. He sent me north aboard the Golden Dragon, and insisted that his friend Ser Duncan see me safe to Eastwatch. No recruit had arrived at the Wall with so much pomp since Nymeria sent the Watch six kings in golden fetters. Egg emptied out the dungeons too, so I would not need to say my vows alone. My honor guard, he called them. One was no less a man than Brynden Rivers. Later he was chosen lord commander.”

(AFfC Ch15 Samwell II)

Answering the OP's question: marriages before septons can be annulled. A marriage that took place without human witnesses, officiated over by a drunk, bribed septon, of minors, and not in a sept, seems to have a lot of excellent grounds for annulment.

Tywin isn't one to skimp on official paperwork, even if it means that the only record of the existence of the wedding is the annulment decision.

In real life, the church line that a marriage was sanctified by God if the parties had expressed an intention to marry and subsequently consummated, whether or not it was witnessed, or officiated by a priest, etc. has been creating issues and grounds for annulment since the earliest days of the church. Especially when St Paul got strict about no grounds for divorce other that death (or possibly, female adultery).

Tyrion's first wedding was sanctified on those early church terms, but as Sansa did not know about the wedding until she was at it,  did not kneel for Tyrion's cloak, did not consumate, his second marriage wasn't.

On the other hand, Sansa's marriage was witnessed, took place in a Sept, officiated by the High Septon, cloaks were exchanged, and they had the parental permission of Tywin and the King. If these things determine the matter, Tyrion's first marriage never happened.

The weddings in front of the Old Gods are very similar to early Christian practice. Long after Christianity became state-sanctioned, there were rules about doing it in a church, but legitimate irregular marriages continued right into the 20th century. Registries were a post-medieval thing, and legally standardised registries only became a thing in the 19th century. 

Another issue - if a spouse leaves without trace, or has drowned at sea with no body retrieved, when is the survivor deemed to be a widow/widower? 

My pick for the septon is Eustace, at the Happy Port.

Edited by Walda

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10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I think if we want to be niggling about it, they were considered to be married on the assumption that they would consummate their marriage. But if either publicly declared that there was no consummation, then it would be said that the last step of marriage was never taken and they retroactively become never married. It's an open secret that it wasn't consummated, but it's not official.

Factually, they are not married since there was no consummation so far. It would have to be publicly declared/communicated that this was the case, but that would be just a formality. And we can expect that to happen very soon before the Harry-Sansa story moves forward.

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On 9/8/2020 at 9:12 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

No, as a common grounds for annulment is that the marriage was never valid in the first place. A divorce treats a marriage as having been real in the past, but no longer so in the present (analogous to a spouse dying, with their children remaining legitimate). An annulment is a declaration that there was no marriage.

I think if we want to be niggling about it, they were considered to be married on the assumption that they would consummate their marriage. But if either publicly declared that there was no consummation, then it would be said that the last step of marriage was never taken and they retroactively become never married. It's an open secret that it wasn't consummated, but it's not official.

Sorry, you are using real world arguments for a fictional world. That's fine if we don't know the rules of Martin's world, but we do in this case. To get a marriage, that has been presided over by the rituals of the Faith, annulled requires the intercession of the High Septon. That is true for anyone not the king. The Targaryens have their own rules. The grounds for annulment for everyone else, as we are told, needs to include testimony there was no consummation of the marriage. This never happened. Tyrion never told the High Septon he didn't have sex with Tysha. If the question had been asked of Tyrion, he would have known the marriage was real. Tyrion has been forced to believe his marriage was a hoax put on for his benefit by his brother. Not something that was real. The Septon has to be dealt with in some way, and Tysha's credibly has to be destroyed, as well as showing her what can happen to her if she crosses the wishes of Tywin Lannister. But an annulment of a hoax is out of the question. It directly contradicts Jaime's story to attempt to do so. 

I have little doubt, that if Tywin could have used his influence to try to get an annulment, if he would have admitted the marriage was real. He can't do so and maintain that the marriage was a hoax. But he also cannot abide by the humiliation it would cost him to have the marriage revealed to all of Westeros. Petitioning the High Septon for an annulment would do just that.  It would tell his rivals his dwarf son could not be controlled by the powerful Lord of Casterly Rock and subject him to ridicule. The same type of ridicule Tywin experiences with his father's treatment of his "whores."  There is nothing Tywin hates more than that. Rather than risk that he does what he does best. He uses his power to destroy both Tyrion and Tysha, and uses Jaime as the foundation of the lie he makes up. He does so with the same callous brutality he did with his rivals in the Westerlands. There is no need to follow the rules here. Tywin makes his own rules. There is no annulment. There is only Tywin being the cruel heartless and vindictive bastard he has shown himself to be time and time again.

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On 9/7/2020 at 8:18 AM, Lord Varys said:

That is pretty much a pointless question. Nobody in the books viewed Tyrion as being married when he married Sansa Stark, so he wasn't married.

Everyone in the books thinks Tyrion and Sansa are married. Both Tyrion and Sansa know that the marriage has never been consummated and therefore can be annulled, but all of Westeros, Robb and Catelyn included, think the marriage is real. Now, Tyrion does make the foolish mistake of telling his father he hasn't yet consummated the marriage, but Tywin isn't about to go around telling the world that fact. He wants a Lannister claim to Winterfell. For that to happen no one must know the truth about Tyrion's and Sansa's sex life.

As to people not knowing about Tyrion's previous marriage, Tyrion also foolishly tells the Small Council of it. Littlefinger knows. Lord Varys knows. Pycelle knows. Perhaps Pycelle can be controlled, but the other two cannot be so easily.

Edited by SFDanny

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7 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Everyone in the books thinks Tyrion and Sansa are married. Both Tyrion and Sansa know that the marriage has never been consummated and therefore can be annulled, but all of Westeros, Robb and Catelyn included, think the marriage is real. Now, Tyrion does make the foolish mistake of telling his father he hasn't yet consummated the marriage, but Tywin isn't about to go around telling the world that fact. He wants a Lannister claim to Winterfell. For that to happen no one must know the truth about Tyrion's and Sansa's sex life.

As to people not knowing about Tyrion's previous marriage, Tyrion also foolishly tells the Small Council of it. Littlefinger knows. Lord Varys knows. Pycelle knows. Perhaps Pycelle can be controlled, but the other two cannot be so easily.

The point being is that nobody thinks the Sansa-Tyrion marriage is invalid by virtue of Tyrion already having some whore wife who wasn't properly set aside. The man is not viewed as a married man when marrying Sansa, so people do think this earlier marriage was properly dissolved, set aside, annulled, etc.

Even Tyrion himself doesn't think of Tysha as still being his wife. She was his wife in the past, but no longer is. Even after he figured out that she wasn't a whore.

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5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Even Tyrion himself doesn't think of Tysha as still being his wife. 

Yea he does

.

What do you miss, Halfman?"

Jaime, thought Tyrion. Shae. Tysha. My wife, I miss my wife, the wife I hardly knew.

.

 

Tyrions got two wives, like Aegon the Dragon. Neither marriage was ever set aside

 

.

Do I need to remind you that a marriage that has not been consummated can be set aside?"

"By the High Septon or a Council of Faith.

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17 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Sorry, you are using real world arguments for a fictional world. That's fine if we don't know the rules of Martin's world, but we do in this case.

We haven't been given a copy of the body of canon law, we've just had discussions of some cases.

Quote

To get a marriage, that has been presided over by the rituals of the Faith, annulled requires the intercession of the High Septon

No, even when Tyrion objects to fears of annullment by bringing up the High Septon he also notes that "a Council of Faith" is an alternative to him. What is a Council of Faith? We don't know yet. He was also discussing his marriage to Sansa, which had a great many witnesses (including the King), and the septon wasn't drunk.

Quote

The grounds for annulment for everyone else, as we are told, needs to include testimony there was no consummation of the marriage

No, nobody says what the general rules for annulment are. If a brother & sister of purely Andal descent marry each other, do they then need to swear the marriage was never consummated or can the Faith simply declare that their incestuous marriage was never valid in the first place? If a woman never swears any vows, even at swordpoint, and is raped on her "wedding night", would she need to lie about being raped in order to annul the marriage? If a man (let's assume a purely Andal one again) is already married to one woman but then fraudulently presents himself as single so he can marry another woman, does the Faith have to put aside their normally anti-polygamy stance if he's able to consummate his "marriage"? What if the man has already sworn oaths forbidding marriage?

Quote

Tyrion has been forced to believe his marriage was a hoax put on for his benefit by his brother

Does he believe that he never had sex with Tysha? The lie was that she was a whore hired by Jaime. Have we read any marriage laws discussing whether a whore can marry or whether a marriage under the false pretense of not being a whore is valid?

Quote

But an annulment of a hoax is out of the question. It directly contradicts Jaime's story to attempt to do so.

How so?

Quote

I have little doubt, that if Tywin could have used his influence to try to get an annulment, if he would have admitted the marriage was real. He can't do so and maintain that the marriage was a hoax

An annulment itself means the marriage wasn't "real". The reason consummation is a grounds for annulment is because it is believed to be a requirement to make a marriage "real".

Quote

Petitioning the High Septon for an annulment

What about a Council of Faith? Could that be why Tyrion referring to "the septons" plural as saying it was as if there was no marriage?

Quote

It would tell his rivals his dwarf son could not be controlled by the powerful Lord of Casterly Rock and subject him to ridicule

Tywin involved a whole lot of people in his response to Tysha, he wasn't keeping it a secret. Littlefinger has heard the story (including that Tyrion married her), although he frames Tyrion himself as being responsible.

17 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Tyrion also foolishly tells the Small Council of it. Littlefinger knows

He doesn't just know that Tyrion was married, he knows what happened to Tyrion's wife. We don't get Tyrion himself revealing such details to LF, nor is there grounds to call it "foolish".

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6 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

We haven't been given a copy of the body of canon law, we've just had discussions of some cases.

Very true, and I don't think we ever will, but we do know what is required to have a marriage under the rules of the Faith annulled. It takes a ruling of the High Septon or a "Council of Faith." We don't know for sure what a "Council of Faith" is, but it is most likely the meeting of the Most Devout that selects the High Septon. I know LV suggests it is something that a regional or local body of the Faith could do, but that makes no sense, if it is an ability of the High Septon, and also a power of any number of lesser septons. It makes sense if it is the same body that picks the new High Septon to be able to perform this action while the position of the High Septon is vacant.

We also know it takes the testimony of at least one of the people involved in the marriage to testify that the marriage was never consummated. In this case we know that neither Tyrion or Tysha ever did so. You're right we don't have the entire body of canon law, but what we do have on this topic makes it clear that the needed procedures for an annulment didn't occur. Tywin fixing things so it was like the marriage "never took place" isn't a reference to the known procedure for annulment. It may mean records were destroyed (if they ever existed) or that bribes were paid or that the Septon who performed the wedding was intimidated, sent into exile, or murdered, but an annulment doesn't happen.

7 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

No, even when Tyrion objects to fears of annullment by bringing up the High Septon he also notes that "a Council of Faith" is an alternative to him. What is a Council of Faith? We don't know yet. He was also discussing his marriage to Sansa, which had a great many witnesses (including the King), and the septon wasn't drunk.

See above. 

Why would we think a Septon being drunk was a reason to invalidate a marriage? It is the religious office that grants the power to perform a marriage under the Faith, not the degree of sobriety. The number of witness also makes no difference. It takes a Septon presiding and two people who want to get married, or in some cases people who can't object to getting married. As in a certain Lannister's wedding to an infant or Tyrion and Sansa.

7 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

No, nobody says what the general rules for annulment are. If a brother & sister of purely Andal descent marry each other, do they then need to swear the marriage was never consummated or can the Faith simply declare that their incestuous marriage was never valid in the first place? If a woman never swears any vows, even at swordpoint, and is raped on her "wedding night", would she need to lie about being raped in order to annul the marriage? If a man (let's assume a purely Andal one again) is already married to one woman but then fraudulently presents himself as single so he can marry another woman, does the Faith have to put aside their normally anti-polygamy stance if he's able to consummate his "marriage"? What if the man has already sworn oaths forbidding marriage?

An annulment of a valid marriage is different from one in which a crime is committed. Tyrion and Tysha's wedding is valid. There was a septon who presided over the ceremony and two people who said their vows before him. They consummated the marriage. It is simply valid. None of the cases you ask about apply in the least. In those cases, punishments are given out. We see Bigamy, rape, marriages by members of the Night's Watch and the Kingsguard all punished. None of that applies here.

7 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Does he believe that he never had sex with Tysha? The lie was that she was a whore hired by Jaime. Have we read any marriage laws discussing whether a whore can marry or whether a marriage under the false pretense of not being a whore is valid?

Read what Tyrion says of his marriage to Bron. Of course he knows he had sex with Tysha. We also know Tysha was not a "whore." Jaime's confession of his lie tells us so. None of these things have any meaning in this case.

7 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

How so?

A hoax means the whole marriage was a fake. One doesn't need to annul a hoax. The Sailor's Wife in the Happy Port in Braavos doesn't need an annulment of her marriages because they are fake. No appeal to the High Septon or a Council of Faith would ever take place. By doing so, it is an admission that the marriage was real and there is a valid reason for the Faith to set it aside because the marriage was never consummated. Of course that isn't the case here. We know the marriage was both done by a real Septon and was consummated. We also know Tyrion was never called to testify about whether or not the marriage was consummated because his father just took care of it. One doesn't need a copy of canon law to understand this simple fact.

We also know that Tywin's lie is that the marriage was a hoax - something not needing an annulment by either the High Septon or a Council of Faith. What someone does to dismiss a hoax and what one does to get an annulment through the procedures of the Faith are two vastly different things that would tell anyone involved the lie of the marriage being a hoax was not true. Tyrion isn't an idiot. He was just thirteen at the time, but bright enough to figure out the contradiction. Yet he doesn't know it wasn't a hoax because he believes Jaime's story until Jaime confesses the lie. What then is his response? Among other things, like hitting his brother and threatening to kill him, he also says "She was my wife." Tyrion is very well aware he was really married once Jaime confesses. This really isn't even a question. It is why Tyrion is so obsessed at the end of ASoS and throughout ADwD about finding out where Tysha went. Why he keeps repeating Tywin's words of "wherever whores go."

7 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

An annulment itself means the marriage wasn't "real". The reason consummation is a grounds for annulment is because it is believed to be a requirement to make a marriage "real".

Was the marriage consummated? Yes. Combined with that a Septon presided and both Tyrion and Tysha pledged their vows makes it real.

7 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

What about a Council of Faith? Could that be why Tyrion referring to "the septons" plural as saying it was as if there was no marriage?

Read above

7 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Tywin involved a whole lot of people in his response to Tysha, he wasn't keeping it a secret. Littlefinger has heard the story (including that Tyrion married her), although he frames Tyrion himself as being responsible.

He doesn't just know that Tyrion was married, he knows what happened to Tyrion's wife. We don't get Tyrion himself revealing such details to LF, nor is there grounds to call it "foolish".

I very much doubt this is a subject the Lannister spread as idle gossip. It is very much a secret. Which doesn't mean some people don't know about it. What they would know if they found out is the story as Tywin wanted Tyrion to believe it. It doesn't point to any annulment.

The timing of Littlefinger's story to Sansa about Tyrion's role is important. How does he know? Well we know he is at the small council meeting in which Tyrion speaks of the matter, but we also know that the gang rape isn't part of the story Tyrion tells there. Where then does Littlefinger learn of the gang rape? He likely learns from someone later because he investigates the story.

It is foolish of Tyrion to tell the story because it exposes his past to people he shouldn't want to have that kind of knowledge. They will surely be interested in his past history and anything they can use against him. The "game of thrones" is played most skillfully by those who seek out every potential rivals weak points. That is what Tyrion exposes as he tells this story to the small council.

 

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On 9/11/2020 at 2:28 AM, SFDanny said:

I know LV suggests it is something that a regional or local body of the Faith could do, but that makes no sense, if it is an ability of the High Septon, and also a power of any number of lesser septons. It makes sense if it is the same body that picks the new High Septon to be able to perform this action while the position of the High Septon is vacant.

Why does it make "no sense"? It's not referred to as "the Council of Faith", which would indicate there's just one. The High Septon presides over an enormous number of Faithful across most of Westeros, he shouldn't need to decide every claim of an invalid marriage.

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what we do have on this topic makes it clear that the needed procedures for an annulment didn't occur

No, Tyrion doesn't say what procedure occurred.

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Tywin fixing things so it was like the marriage "never took place" isn't a reference to the known procedure for annulment

It was the septons who said that, and they would presumably know the procedure and be required to follow it.

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It may mean records were destroyed (if they ever existed)

There were no witnesses and the septon was drunk, so I really doubt there were any to be destroyed.

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or that bribes were paid

I expect that was the case, although the pre-modern era also didn't have our attitude toward "bribes". In fact, the Reformation occurred after Martin Luther complained about the Church indulging that sort of thing. Henry VIII also said his dispensation was invalid because his father had bribed the Archbishop of Canterbury, but the Church didn't agree.

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the Septon who performed the wedding was intimidated

Very plausibly.

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or murdered

What is the utility of murdering one septon if you're also getting other septons to sign onto your plan? Do you really think this hungover apologetic septon is going to dig in his heels against Tywin to the death? He's the one who spilled the beans in the first place!

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Why would we think a Septon being drunk was a reason to invalidate a marriage?

A sober septon would be much less likely to be willing to sign off on an invalid marriage.

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It is the religious office that grants the power to perform a marriage under the Faith, not the degree of sobriety

Again you write as if you have access to the canon law. We don't know the precise details.

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The number of witness also makes no difference

Witnesses being willing to swear oaths were very important in the pre-modern era, and the Faith in particular places a lot of importance on sworn oaths. Witnesses and marriage go together because marriage is a public declaration of the relationship between two people.

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There was a septon who presided over the ceremony and two people who said their vows before him

That could also apply to obviously invalid marriages, such as in my examples.

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In those cases, punishments are given out

That is relevant point to make. But what if a marriage turned out to be invalid because the participants were unaware of something? Perhaps a spouse believed to be dead turned out to be alive, or the two people didn't know their true parentage and were actually siblings? Do they need to be punished or can marriages actually be declared invalid without that? We know that can happen with unconsummated marriages which are otherwise valid.

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We also know Tysha was not a "whore." Jaime's confession of his lie tells us so. None of these things have any meaning in this case.

Are you sure that septons endorsing that lie wouldn't be enough to declare the marriage invalid?

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A hoax means the whole marriage was a fake. One doesn't need to annul a hoax

An annulment itself is a declaration that something wasn't real.

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The Sailor's Wife in the Happy Port in Braavos doesn't need an annulment of her marriages because they are fake. No appeal to the High Septon or a Council of Faith would ever take place

They don't follow the Seven in Braavos.

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One doesn't need a copy of canon law to understand this simple fact.

You do need to know the law to understand the actual rules by which marriages can and can't be dissolved.

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We also know that Tywin's lie is that the marriage was a hoax

The word "hoax" isn't used, instead the lie is that Tysha was a whore.

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What someone does to dismiss a hoax and what one does to get an annulment through the procedures of the Faith are two vastly different things that would tell anyone involved the lie of the marriage being a hoax was not true

How would Tywin getting septons to dismiss the marriage reveal that Tysha wasn't a whore?

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He was just thirteen at the time, but bright enough to figure out the contradiction

I'd like to see evidence of that latter bit, as the "contradiction" seems to be in your head.

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Yet he doesn't know it wasn't a hoax because he believes Jaime's story

The story was that Tysha was a whore, which the septons could also declare to be the truth. Tyrion isn't under the belief that there was no septon (drunk or otherwise) or that the marriage wasn't consummated.

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Tyrion is very well aware he was really married once Jaime confesses

Tyrion thought of Tysha as his first wife even before then.

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Was the marriage consummated? Yes. Combined with that a Septon presided and both Tyrion and Tysha pledged their vows makes it real.

Is that true even for the invalid examples I gave?

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I very much doubt this is a subject the Lannister spread as idle gossip

Why wouldn't Cersei talk about it? She hates Tyrion and doesn't have Tywin's restraint.

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It is very much a secret

What evidence is there for that claim? Tywin brought in a whole barracks full of guards and paid Tysha with more money than she'd ever seen before, that's not something you do when you want to keep something hush-hush. Tywin also publicly humiliated his father's mistress, and there was nothing secret about what she'd been up to. Tyrion certainly doesn't Tysha as a secret, it seems nobody told him it was one!

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Where then does Littlefinger learn of the gang rape? He likely learns from someone later because he investigates the story.

I see no reason to think he didn't know it well before Sansa's marriage. He wasn't surprised that Cersei's children were bastards, and she doesn't go blabbing about that to random sellswords when she's drunk.

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It is foolish of Tyrion to tell the story because it exposes his past to people he shouldn't want to have that kind of knowledge. They will surely be interested in his past history and anything they can use against him.

How would it be "used against him"? Even when he was on trial for killing Joffrey and accusers were throwing everything they could at him nobody bothered with that.

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That is what Tyrion exposes as he tells this story to the small council.

Tyrion tells Bronn, Shae and Sansa (even knowing she blabbed her own father's plans). They're not on the small council, nor can they really be relied on to keep Tyrion's secrets (although he might have allowed himself to forget that in Shae's case). Unlike in the show though, he did manage to keep his mouth shut when his father says it was past time he was wed (although perhaps he was intimidated into silence rather than cannily reticent).

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On 9/9/2020 at 11:32 AM, Walda said:

 Maester Aemon was sworn to the Night's Watch as well as the Citidel according to Sam

Thank you for pointing out my mistake and providing the quotes for it. I wonder whether it's obligatory or not for maesters and septons to swear the NW vows. Can the citadel and High Septon select someone to serve at Castle Black, but without them becoming NW?

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That is a really good question, @sweetsunray. I don't recall any mention of Septon Celladar at the choosing or the high table.

He is at the sept when they swear their oaths, he testifies at Jon's trial, he advises the Lord Commander on request and on matters of faith. He prays.

It could be that the Faith of the Seven is an exclusive order. There clearly are incompatibilities between the doctrine he preaches, and neutrality with respect to the Northerners of the realm.

This possibly applies to the Ironborn brothers and Queen's men too, but he has never attempted to prosecute against a black brother for saying vows to the drowned god or R'hllor. 

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