Westerosi high nobility is probably horribly inbred

[Universal Sword Donor]

6 hours ago, GoldenGail3 said:

It explains why they have such common traits in family.. like the Baratheons with black hair and blue eyes. Lannister's with green eyes and golden locks... Hmm, how do they keep such traits if not for inbreeding?

It's a fantasy book with dragons and zombies.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

It's a fantasy book with dragons and zombies.

Thing is Martin intentionally made the world have at least quasi Mendelian genetics, and he is often implying the dangers of incest with the Targs and the Lannisters. And yet he seems oblivious to the fact that given the low number of houses and the high pedigree requirements, most noble houses should be in the line of Charles the II

"His body did not contain a single drop of blood; his heart was the size of a peppercorn; his lungs corroded; his intestines rotten and gangrenous; he had a single testicle, black as coal, and his head was full of water."

[sweetsunray]

7 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

There are only two GRRM stories that involve skinning (that I'm aware). The Dying Of The Light and The Skin Trade.

There's a third: In the Lost Lands.

[Lord Varys]

14 hours ago, GoldenGail3 said:

The Manderly's are the richest bannerman, true. But I'm not sure about most powerful. The Karstarks possibly could be, which is why it was such a loss to Robb when the Karstark levies left him after he killed Rickard. The Dustins probably not or else Robb would've noticed that Barbrey Dustin didn't send him all of her levies. I think it's fair to say that House Bolton has the greatest military strength out of them all which is why they weren't wiped out during one of their rebellions. 

Barbrey didn't overdo herself and sent as few men as she dared, but she sent enough to fulfill her feudal obligations so the Starks couldn't complain.

One assumes the Boltons weren't wiped out because the Starks - then the rulers of a large realm with many powerful lords - simply couldn't fight a war of eradication against them. They were never dragonriders, after all.

14 hours ago, GoldenGail3 said:

If that's the case, why is Oberyn's concubine the baseborn daughter of the Dornish Boltons? 

There are no 'Boltons' in the other kingdoms. The Boltons are singularly cruel and singularly resistant. The Ullers are weird, but they did not constantly try to shake off the rule of the Martells. Even the Yronwoods didn't do that. There are other powerful houses in the other kingdoms, but nobody there keeps a collection of cloaks made of the skin of princes from the ruling house in their closets. The Boltons do.

What happened between the Starks and Boltons historically is way beyond anything that happened elsewhere.

But to be sure, I expect there to have been succession wars in the North where Bolton-related cadet branches of House Stark fought with the others for supremacy. We have a hint in that direction with the Greystarks, but one can imagine that a more closely related Stark pretender with Bolton allies and ancestors would have been a much bigger pain in the ass for his family and the entire North if he had a Roose- or Ramsay-like personality.

[The Commentator]

16 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So all noble families are inbred, be it in Westeros or IRL. There are only so many people you can marry if you want to marry to your high status. But here Westeros is special. Their levels of elitism are through the roof. Take the Freys for example. They have been along for 600 years, and yet people consider them upstarts. So if the high lords are reticent to marry their children to someone with a meager 600 years pedigree, can you imagine how high the inbreeding coefficient must be. So what do you think? Is the fact that the entirety of Westerosi nobility doesn't have the Habsburg chin a plothole, or are they somehow less inbred then they seem?

The genetics are more than likely different to ours in Martin world. There you have people who can talk to trees.  Reincarnation is also part of their existence.  Low magic is still far from no magic.  What special genes that exists are worth preserving even if it means marrying somebody you don’t love.  That is really at the heart of the issue.  It seems those who follow their hearts end up causing a lot of pain and suffering to many.  

[CamiloRP]

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

There's a third: In the Lost Lands.

Never read it. Is it good?

[rotting sea cow]

14 hours ago, GoldenGail3 said:

The Manderly's are the richest bannerman, true. But I'm not sure about most powerful. The Karstarks possibly could be, which is why it was such a loss to Robb when the Karstark levies left him after he killed Rickard. The Dustins probably not or else Robb would've noticed that Barbrey Dustin didn't send him all of her levies. I think it's fair to say that House Bolton has the greatest military strength out of them all which is why they weren't wiped out during one of their rebellions. 

The Manderys should clearly be the most powerful. In the end they have a whole city where to take further levies. The fact they are somewhat underrepresented in the firsts books is weird, because Wyman makes it clear that despite the looses, he still commands more horse than the rest of the houses together and he is (at least theoretically) able to fully man 50 warships besides.

[sweetsunray]

46 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Never read it. Is it good?

It's one of those short stories of his that provokes the reader into thinking the points over, not answering the underlying mysteries. A reread is preferential.

Here's a review: http://talesaftertolkien.blogspot.com/2017/11/martin-re-read-lost-lands.html

And another: https://spaceandsorcery.wordpress.com/2014/05/07/in-the-lost-lands-george-r-r-martin/

What they fail to mention is the likely reference of the opening sentence of the story: "You can buy anything you might desire from Gray Alys". I suspect it's a reference to the anti-vietnam song of Alro Guthrie "Alice's Restaurant"

 

[CamiloRP]

Then I'' definitely see if I can find it, thanks

just for curiosity, what's your favorite non-ASOIAF GRRM work?

Mine is Armageddon Rag, but Sandkings, Override and For A Single Yesterday follow closely.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

The Manderys should clearly be the most powerful. In the end they have a whole city where to take further levies. The fact they are somewhat underrepresented in the firsts books is weird, because Wyman makes it clear that despite the looses, he still commands more horse than the rest of the houses together and he is (at least theoretically) able to fully man 50 warships besides.

They could be, at least insofar as cavalry is concerned. But we don't know how large their lands are compared to the other great houses. Lord Wyman indicates that he has a lot of sway with his neighbors and stuff, but his actual legal sphere of influence might be smaller than that of the Karstarks, Dustins, Ryswells, Boltons, and Umbers.

Although one assumes that his lands are more populous than, especially, the northern parts of the North. That is all difficult to say. However, we can say that the Starks don't have any bannermen more powerful than the Starks, unlike the Riverlands where there are multiple such houses. And there are no Yronwoods or Royces in the North, either - both those houses once competed with the Martells and Arryns for the rule of all Dorne/the Vale - whereas no Northern house ever rivaled with the Starks for the control of the entire North. The Reynes in the West were prestigious and powerful, but never proper rivals to the Lannisters of Casterly Rock, just as the Hightowers were never proper rivals to the Gardeners (although there were times when the Hightowers were more prestigious and powerful and influential than the Tyrells - but even then, they never tried to take Highgarden from them).

The relative strength of the Boltons seems to be based more on the fact that Roose kept a lot of professional troops in reserve and used his position as general of the larger army to strengthen his overall position. We can assume that not all of the men Roose returned with after the Red Wedding were Dreadfort men per se. There were Karstarks among them, too, and, one assumes, also freeriders and hedge knights and men originally sworn to other lords who ended up in Roose's personal service for this or that reason.

The Karstarks also seem to be pretty powerful and would definitely rank among the most powerful Northern lords.

[Angel Eyes]

16 hours ago, GoldenGail3 said:

The Boltons are the Starks second most powerful bannerman. The Starks and Boltons should have many marriages together. 

I wonder why Roose never brought a betrothal between Domeric and Sansa before Domeric bit the dust.

[sweetsunray]

7 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Then I'' definitely see if I can find it, thanks

just for curiosity, what's your favorite non-ASOIAF GRRM work?

Mine is Armageddon Rag, but Sandkings, Override and For A Single Yesterday follow closely.

This Tower of Ashes, Seven Times Never Kill a Man are my short story favourites. The next ones I love are Sandkings, Song for Lya, Stone City, the Monkey Treatment. For the longer or thematic novella's I like the Tuf stories (kindof a Grey Alys theme - be careful what you wish for), Nightflyers (the novella, not the TV versions). I like certain aspects of Armageddon Rag, but at times I feel it's trying to incorporate too much. Once we get to the actual happenings at stage, I read it like a train. Started with Dreamsongs 2, but still have to read beyond Doorways. I'm itching to start Skin Trade.

In the Lost Lands can be read in Dreamsongs Part 1.

[GoldenGail3]

Just now, Angel Eyes said:

I wonder why Roose never brought a betrothal between Domeric and Sansa before Domeric bit the dust.

waiting until Sansa was older... she was like eleven at the start of GOT

[Angel Eyes]

2 minutes ago, GoldenGail3 said:

waiting until Sansa was older... she was like eleven at the start of GOT

Catelyn was betrothed at 12, with no war on. And let's not forget Ermesande Hayford who was married (and widowed) before she was weaned.

[GoldenGail3]

1 minute ago, Angel Eyes said:

Catelyn was betrothed at 12, with no war on. And let's not forget Ermesande Hayford who was married (and widowed) before she was weaned.

eh idk why then

[CamiloRP]

16 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

This Tower of Ashes, Seven Times Never Kill a Man are my short story favourites. The next ones I love are Sandkings, Song for Lya, Stone City, the Monkey Treatment. For the longer or thematic novella's I like the Tuf stories (kindof a Grey Alys theme - be careful what you wish for), Nightflyers (the novella, not the TV versions). I like certain aspects of Armageddon Rag, but at times I feel it's trying to incorporate too much. Once we get to the actual happenings at stage, I read it like a train. Started with Dreamsongs 2, but still have to read beyond Doorways. I'm itching to start Skin Trade.

In the Lost Lands can be read in Dreamsongs Part 1.

Sadly. I was never able to find dreamsongs in my country.

The Monkey Treatment! God. As a former fat kid I really felt that one. 

Skin Trade is effin' good. As are most of his writings :/

In fact, most of the ones you mention I could easily called some of my favourites, the only ones I'm kinda meh about are The Exit to Saint Breta, tho I get the nostalgia he was trying to create with ti, but it was better achieved in some of his other stories (with dusk comes mistfall) and The Needle Men was also pretty meh.

[argonak]

40 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I wonder why Roose never brought a betrothal between Domeric and Sansa before Domeric bit the dust.

Well, marrying your eldest daughter to one of your most powerful vassals who has antagonistic history rarely works out for me in Crusader Kings. . . those strong claims can be a pain!

Seriosuly, at best it would only potentially tie an already vassal Boltons slightly closer.  It usually makes more sense to garner your alliances outside your vassal group unless you have a particularly strong familial alliance already, or no equivalent rank options.  Sweet Robin would be the natural ally, except he's very closely related.  Joffrey actually makes the most sense of any options I can see.  Short of that Renly would also have been a great choice.  

While we're on the topic, Shereen would have made a ton of sense for Bran or Rickon.  Dragonstone is a prestigous title, and Robb would have been popping out kids by the time she was old enough to marry Bran anyway.

Unless Ned was really serious about his resettlement plan, and was intending to use that to land all his extra kids.

[GoldenGail3]

19 minutes ago, argonak said:

Well, marrying your eldest daughter to one of your most powerful vassals who has antagonistic history rarely works out for me in Crusader Kings. . . those strong claims can be a pain!

Tell me about it. I once had to fight my own brothers to unite England under my heel and I had to imprison them so they wouldn't rise up against me. CK is a great game, lol.

[argonak]

21 minutes ago, GoldenGail3 said:

Tell me about it. I once had to fight my own brothers to unite England under my heel and I had to imprison them so they wouldn't rise up against me. CK is a great game, lol.

The old ASOIAF mod for CK2 originally got me into the game, I spent a rather lot of time with CK2!  Then a friend gave me CK3 as a gift last week and I think my wife is already starting to consider an intervention.  

It has given me a really unusual understanding of european geography though.  Hah.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

19 minutes ago, argonak said:

Then a friend gave me CK3 as a gift last week and I think my wife is already starting to consider an intervention.  

Only considering??? I'm having to actively ration my access to prevent myself from wasting all day on it