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Alyn Oakenfist

Did Balon make a single smart decision ever?

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Thank you @Arthur Peres ! I will re-read that chapter.

 

”In despair”... was Balon desperate because “weak” Theon brought shame to their House? Or was he desperate because his last remaining son, his blood, was being tortured by Ramsay Snow ? And he would have preferred a clean death for him, without pain? Was Aeron wrong as he never was “in despair”? Only the Drowned God knows.

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Walking over that bridge on a windy night?

 

He should have sent Euron to the Wall, though, that mad bastard would be enough to deter even the worst of the Wildlings

Edited by Bronn Urgandy

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9 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Euron raped and tormented Aeron and Urrigon,

Allegedly. Plus they were kids while their father ruled. It wasnt Balons business

9 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

cucked Victarion

Hence the banishment

9 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

everyone in the family seems to think of him as crazy, insane or dangerous.

Dude... Theyre greyjoys lol. Theyre all insanely dangerous and dangerously insane

9 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

The only reason I excluded exectution is because of kinslaying, but that is what should have been done with Euron.

In hindsight, sure. Just like Eddard should have executed Joffrey the moment he entered Winterfell

9 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Other than Balon, no one contest that Theon was the heir, even the dudes that cannot even remember his name.

.

the maester's mouth flapped open once again. "By rights the Seastone Chair belongs to Theon, or Asha if the prince is dead. That is the law."

"Green land law," said Aeron with contempt. "What is that to us? We are ironborn, the sons of the sea, chosen of the Drowned God.

.

 

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On 10/11/2020 at 5:23 PM, James Steller said:

He was smart enough to notice that Asha would be the best heir to his seat, regardless of her sex. 
 

EDIT: I didn’t realise it was already said.

Asha was his only choice. Rodrik and Maron were dead and Theon was a hostage.

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On 10/11/2020 at 6:23 PM, Arthur Peres said:

She isn't. her gender is a major problem for Westeros, and a bigger one for the IB. But even if we put that aside, she still inferior to Theon.

Unlike Asha that went along with Balon stupid plan to invade the North, Theon told on his face what would happen later on.

Theon than commits the great mistake of growing to attached to Winterfell, refused to leave the castle and ended up as a hostage of a maniac. Asha later on makes the same mistake at Deepwood Motte, just like Theon she refuses to leave the castle, even though the IB left the north, and ends up as hostage at the hands of Stannis. 

And even at the Kingsmoot the only thing Asha does is once again propose the deal Theon and Robb offered and she together with Balon turned off. But now there is no goodwill among the parts, the North if far weaker and the IT if far stronger than early on.

Everything Asha does is a lesser version of what Theon did.

It is kind of weird. I like Asha, but she doesn’t seem to be much smarter than Theon. They both wanted an alliance with the North (although Asha supported Balons plan initially and Theon came with an alliance secured). They both knew that the Old Way was dead. They both had proven themselves in battle. Asha at Deepwood Motte and Theon at the Whispering Woods and in the Battle of the Camps. Theon gets caught sitting around in Winterfell after capturing it. Asha correctly criticizes Theon for that, but ends up getting captured sitting around at Deepwood Motte. At the Kingsmoot, her plan for the north was similar to Theons. The difference is that she wanted an alliance after attacking the North.

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On 10/12/2020 at 6:51 PM, Arthur Peres said:
Theon never had the chance to prove himself. Balon gave him a meaningless task while being watched by Aeron, and even after Theon saving the whole campaing for a while, taking Winterfell and stripping the north of leadership, Balon still called him weak.

I disagree with this. Theon had the chance to prove himself by being patient, doing what he was ordered to and working his way up the ranks. Dagmer even told him as much. If he proved himself on the Stoney Shore, he would have likely been given a higher command with less supervision.

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5 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I disagree with this. Theon had the chance to prove himself by being patient, doing what he was ordered to and working his way up the ranks. Dagmer even told him as much. If he proved himself on the Stoney Shore, he would have likely been given a higher command with less supervision.

Theon took Winterfell in a single night a few dozens of men and Balon still called him weak later on.

Theon could arrive with Gregor's head on his right hand and Jaime's on his left and Balon would still not seem him as worthy.

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20 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Theon took Winterfell in a single night a few dozens of men and Balon still called him weak later on.

Theon could arrive with Gregor's head on his right hand and Jaime's on his left and Balon would still not seem him as worthy.

YES. Fair enough. Balon was partial to Asha. Throne was away for so long after all.

Balon's behavior was not befitting that of a father welcoming his homecoming son (after ten years, but suspicion of theon being a Stark stooge was unwarranted).

Like Tywin with handless Jaime. 

Asha is Quentyn Martell and Theon is Arianne. Doran is Balon. The partiality is proof of this parallel. And all of these idiots are foolish players of the game. Dreamers. 

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1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

Theon took Winterfell in a single night a few dozens of men and Balon still called him weak later on.

Theon could hold WF only short time (couple weeks?) b4 he lost lives of his men, WF and became toy for Boltons.

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37 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

Theon could hold WF only short time (couple weeks?) b4 he lost lives of his men, WF and became toy for Boltons.

Sure.

And that single act saved the IB campaing for much longer time than anything Asha, Victarion, Aeron or Balon did combined.

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4 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Theon took Winterfell in a single night a few dozens of men and Balon still called him weak later on.

Theon could arrive with Gregor's head on his right hand and Jaime's on his left and Balon would still not seem him as worthy.

We don’t know exactly what he meant. He might be talking about Theons decision to stay at Winterfell. Had he sacked the place, razed the castle and left with the Starks, Freys and Reeds as hostages for Pyke, I doubt that he’d be displeased. He could have reversed the situation by bringing Ned Starks sons home as hostages after conquering their castle. Instead he stayed and chose to irrationally die holding his position, because he was emotuonally attached to Winterfell and to the people.

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2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Sure.

And that single act saved the IB campaing for much longer time than anything Asha, Victarion, Aeron or Balon did combined.

I will say that it’s noteworthy that the only land that the Greyjoys still hold in the North was taken on Theons orders. Not Balons. Dagmer still holds Torrhen Square.

Edited by Lee-Sensei

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39 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

We don’t know exactly what he meant. He might be talking about Theons decision to stay at Winterfell. Had he sacked the place, razed the castle and left with the Starks, Freys and Reeds as hostages for Pyke, I doubt that he’d be displeased. He could have reversed the situation by bringing Ned Starks sons home as hostages after conquering their castle. Instead he stayed and chose to irrationally die holding his position, because he was emotuonally attached to Winterfell and to the people.

He was praying that his son died... there is not a single drop on recognition presented to us. Theon saved that campaing and got shitted on.

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13 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

He was praying that his son died... there is not a single drop on recognition presented to us. Theon saved that campaing and got shitted on.

Yes. Because he failed. If he’d come back after destroying Winterfell and taking hostages, things would almost certainly be different. There’s no way that you could spin a victory like that as a failure. Asha said it herself. If he’d used the opportunity to take the hostages back to Pyke, he would have won the war in a stroke.

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22 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Yes. Because he failed. If he’d come back after destroying Winterfell and taking hostages, things would almost certainly be different. There’s no way that you could spin a victory like that as a failure. Asha said it herself. If he’d used the opportunity to take the hostages back to Pyke, he would have won the war in a stroke.

It is impossible to do all that with less than a 30 men that Theon had. And they did not tried to help him despite him asking for reinforcements.

Destroying the castle with 30 men is impossible. Traveling the North close to winter while carring the 2 biggest hostages and escorting them is also impossible, the northem lords would catch him in the open.

Asha mocked Theon and later on did the same mistake for a castle far less strategic that she had even lower connection.

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3 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

It is impossible to do all that with less than a 30 men that Theon had. And they did not tried to help him despite him asking for reinforcements.

Destroying the castle with 30 men is impossible. Traveling the North close to winter while carring the 2 biggest hostages and escorting them is also impossible, the northem lords would catch him in the open.

Asha mocked Theon and later on did the same mistake for a castle far less strategic that she had even lower connection.

It was impossible to take 6 hostages with him back to Pyke? 5 of them being children? The Northern Lords didn’t catch him going there and Theon knew the land. It was entirely possible for him to take his hostages back. Heck, after Asha leaves he allows some of his men to flee a Winterfell and they manage to escape.

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1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

It was impossible to take 6 hostages with him back to Pyke? 5 of them being children? The Northern Lords didn’t catch him going there and Theon knew the land. It was entirely possible for him to take his hostages back. Heck, after Asha leaves he allows some of his men to flee a Winterfell and they manage to escape.

Yes it was.

Exactly they were children, and a cripple at that, either Theon has to move slowly to keep them in good healthy or risk their lives forcing a march in open terrain in the north without shelter. The soldiers that fleed are grow men, and nobody of importance they were not chased by northems because they were insignificant, Bran and Rickon are important, and the main concern would be getting them back again.

For comparison, Tyrion tried to freed Jaime with a 100 men, they manage to leave Riverrun and were still caught  and killed before they could leave the Riverlands, with Jaime being captured again. A terrain much more easy to move than the north, Jaime being a grow men willing to go, and much bigger scout.

Edited by Arthur Peres

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17 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Yes it was.

Exactly they were children, and a cripple at that, either Theon has to move slowly to keep them in good healthy or risk their lives forcing a march in open terrain in the north without shelter. The soldiers that fleed are grow men, and nobody of importance they were not chased by northems because they were insignificant, Bran and Rickon are important, and the main concern would be getting them back again.

For comparison, Tyrion tried to freed Jaime with a 100 men, they manage to leave Riverrun and were still caught  and killed before they could leave the Riverlands, with Jaime being captured again. A terrain much more easy to move than the north, Jaime being a grow men willing to go, and much bigger scout.

They were Ironborn reavers. We just completely disagree. George put Ashas statement in there, because it was the truth. Theon had the opportunity to leave with his hostages and he wouldn’t have been stopped. He knew the land as well as any Northman and he had plenty of time before Rodrik returned. He chose to stay, because he was personally attached to Winterfell.

That Tyrion situation isn’t even close to the same. Theon controlled Winterfell and had the Starks hostage. It would be a while before Rodrik rallied his men and returned to actually threaten his position, which is why Asha was able to leave Deepwood Motte for Winterfell and return again with out being captured or killed.

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