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Canon Claude

The Dragon Requires Three Books

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First off, I really enjoyed reading "Fire & Blood," despite any flaws it might have. But one thing which worries me is the fact that we're only at the beginning of Aegon III's reign as an adult. And based on what we've learned about "Gyldayn", his history of House Targaryen will encompass all of House Targaryen's dynasty, up until Aerys' death and Robert's coronation. 

That means there's a LOT of Targaryen history to cover in just one more volume. Aegon III, Daeron I, Baelor, Viserys II, Aegon IV, Daeron II, Aerys I, Maekar, Aegon V, Jaehaerys II, and Aerys II. That's eleven Targaryen kings, some of whom have had reigns that could fill entire novels on their own if GRRM was so inclined. I honestly think he would need to write three volumes of F&B to give each of those kings enough room to breathe. Even the insignificant ones like Aerys I and Jaehaerys had to deal with Blackfyre Rebellions.

The only other way it makes sense would be for one or two kings to be omitted. Aegon V clearly has a series of his own to be fleshed out, so I'm sure GRRM will want to breeze over that. Though I'm not sure how he'll justify a gap like that in his "definitive history of House Targaryen."

Edited by Canon Claude

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Considering F&B is a cursory glance at Targaryen history in Westeros, I see no problem with GRRM wrapping it up in two volumes. Keep in mind that the dragons in this story were an afterthought for the George. The Starks are the center of ASOIAF. The rest of it?... expansion packages.

Edited by Travis

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1 minute ago, Travis said:

The Starks are the center of ASOIAF. 

Then why didn't we get "Ice & Snow" instead? Did GRRM think that nobody would be interested in a history of House Stark??

House Targaryen is just as important, if not moreso, than House Stark. They are the ones who drive the entire story. House Targaryen conquered Westeros. House Targaryen ruled for 300 years and shaped Westerosi history more than any other house. A Targaryen prince and a Targaryen king provoked Robert's Rebellion, and one of the most beloved characters of the story is the last surviving Targaryen, clearly being coded by GRRM as one of the heroes of the story, for good or ill. I'm not a Targaryen fanatic (though there's plenty of those fans out there) but I also think that the House Stark focus is overblown in the eyes of some of the readers. Without House Targaryen, we wouldn't have the story. It's about the song of ice AND fire.

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41 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

Then why didn't we get "Ice & Snow" instead? Did GRRM think that nobody would be interested in a history of House Stark??

Because Targaryen “history” won’t spoil the main novels, Stark (and First Men) history would. 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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10 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Because Targaryen “history” won’t spoil the main novels, Stark (and First Men) history would. 

Don't think that's as true as you think it is.

That said, it's fairly obvious GRRM finds the Targaryens and their dynasty much more intriguing than what he's created for the Starks. He has extensive notes for the former, and not the latter. That's not to say there's nothing about the Starks -- I know for a fact that there are some details about the historical Starks that have yet to be published anywhere (no, I'm not saying) -- but there's definitely a great difference between them.

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12 minutes ago, Ran said:

 

Don't think that's as true as you think it is.

That said, it's fairly obvious GRRM finds the Targaryens and their dynasty much more intriguing than what he's created for the Starks. He has extensive notes for the former, and not the latter. That's not to say there's nothing about the Starks -- I know for a fact that there are some details about the historical Starks that have yet to be published anywhere (no, I'm not saying) -- but there's definitely a great difference between them.

It’s ok, maybe we disagree on this. I also think I wasn’t very clear, so I’ll try again. 
We know Martin loves all his characters, etc. But my point was, the history of the reigns of the Targaryen kings in the last three centuries or so won’t reveal any major spoilers regarding the Long Night, the Others, or any other main event from the distant past. In that sense, he can go crazy w/ the Targaryen and their histories and flesh it all out in as much detail as he wants. Tbh, I’m not even sure there is an awful lot of details fleshed out about the very distant past yet... or at least not until fairly recently, depending on where Martin is at the mo, and how much he wants to reveal in Winds

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1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

But my point was, the history of the reigns of the Targaryen kings in the last three centuries or so won’t reveal any major spoilers regarding the Long Night, the Others, or any other main event from the distant past

Right, that's what I understood you were saying.

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43 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Because Targaryen “history” won’t spoil the main novels, Stark (and First Men) history would. 

I can't believe I've found something to agree with you on!

It does seems likely that the focus of Winds will be Bran, Bloodraven, the Children, Jojen, Meera, Hodor, the white walkers, wights, the wildlings, Jon's death/recovery/resurrection, Sansa, Littlefinger, Harry the Heir, Robin, Arya, the Faceless Men, the Boltons, the Freys, the Manderlys, and Winterfell - oh, and Stannis, Asha, Theon, the Iron Bank, Cersei and her kids, Jaime, Margaery and the Tyrells.

Meanwhile back on Essos, Daenerys encounters a horde of Dothraki. There does seem to be quite a lot for her to accomplish if she's to ever turn her attention to Westeros, not to mention prevent Victarion from binding a dragon.

Edited by Melifeather

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5 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I can't believe I've found something to agree with you on!

They do say there’s a first for everything! :lol:

:cheers:

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Everyone who says the starks are the main family are wrong. 

It is the Targaryens. 

The story is about Summerhall, The Ghost of High Heart's prophecy, Aegon VI, the Valonqar, Rhaegar, Dany, their past history, Bloodraven, Quiathe (Shiera Seastar), and the such. 

The starks have the honor of crossing paths with the Targaryens (Bran and the three eyed crow, Lyanna and Rhaegar), but they are just our perspective, not the main characters. 

Also the others are red herrings. If they were so important the show would not have collapsed that story arc. 

The Others are barely in the books yet people still think they are the big bad. 

Edited by butterweedstrover

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11 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Also the others are red herrings. If they were so important the show would not have collapsed that story arc. 

Sure, b/c the abomination handled the story so well, it’s really just the Others that they “collapsed”. :lol:

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23 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

The Others are barely in the books yet people still think they are the big bad. 

Martin chooses to open A Song of Ice and Fire with a prologue about the Others in AGoT. His prologues are generally used to signal things that are important to the plot. And the very first things we see in this entire story of importance are the Others. This makes it pretty clear that the Others are not a red herring.

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47 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

Martin chooses to open A Song of Ice and Fire with a prologue about the Others in AGoT. His prologues are generally used to signal things that are important to the plot. And the very first things we see in this entire story of importance are the Others. This makes it pretty clear that the Others are not a red herring.

His first chapter was Bran, he added the others later. 

Maybe we see them again, but they're not the big bad. 

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3 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

Then why didn't we get "Ice & Snow" instead?

"Dire & Wolf" was right there!

 

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

It’s ok, maybe we disagree on this. I also think I wasn’t very clear, so I’ll try again. 
We know Martin loves all his characters, etc. But my point was, the history of the reigns of the Targaryen kings in the last three centuries or so won’t reveal any major spoilers regarding the Long Night, the Others, or any other main event from the distant past. In that sense, he can go crazy w/ the Targaryen and their histories and flesh it all out in as much detail as he wants. Tbh, I’m not even sure there is an awful lot of details fleshed out about the very distant past yet... or at least not until fairly recently, depending on where Martin is at the mo, and how much he wants to reveal in Winds

It's also likely that a reason is Targaryen history being wayyy easier to write, as it's a fraction of the length

 

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Also the others are red herrings. If they were so important the show would not have collapsed that story arc. 

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your point, but if the show colapsing story lines serves as evidence for something not being important, then nothing would be important (save for Brianne maybe)

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1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

His first chapter was Bran, he added the others later. 

Maybe we see them again, but they're not the big bad. 

The first chapter he wrote was a Bran chapter. The actual finished book was organized to put the Others into the very first chapter of the book. There's a huge difference. The Others will be very important. Using the show as an example for why they won't be is kind of ridiculous, considering GRRM has said there will be major differences in the books.

Edited by Nathan Stark

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2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

The starks have the honor of crossing paths with the Targaryens (Bran and the three eyed crow, Lyanna and Rhaegar), but they are just our perspective, not the main characters.

There are some times when a POV character is just a POV, like Areo Hotah. Davos was invented because GRRM didn't want to have a king POV. But the Starks are different. They are a majority of our original POVs, and they drove the central plot. Daenerys is still way off in Essos far from most of the story. Over time the Lannisters have gotten more focus because if anything GRRM has gotten more bogged down with the political angle vs the magical.

Quote

Also the others are red herrings. If they were so important the show would not have collapsed that story arc. 

Quote

The story is about Summerhall, The Ghost of High Heart's prophecy, Aegon VI, the Valonqar, [...] Shiera Seastar

The show never contained those things at all.

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2 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

There are some times when a POV character is just a POV, like Areo Hotah. Davos was invented because GRRM didn't want to have a king POV. But the Starks are different. They are a majority of our original POVs, and they drove the central plot. Daenerys is still way off in Essos far from most of the story. Over time the Lannisters have gotten more focus because if anything GRRM has gotten more bogged down with the political angle vs the magical. 

Yeah, well they are the perspective we see the world through. Their naivete and growth is us the reader. But they are not the main plot. 

2 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The show never contained those things at all.

Show is different from the books. 

The books have told us time and time again the prince who was promised is what set off this chain of events. 

 

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2 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

The first chapter he wrote was a Bran chapter. The actual finished book was organized to put the Others into the very first chapter of the book. There's a huge difference. The Others will be very important. Using the show as an example for why they won't be is kind of ridiculous, considering GRRM has said there will be major differences in the books.

The part about the show was this: they made up the Night King and the final battle. So we can assume whatever George told them about the Others wasn't big enough for the TV screen. 

Things will probably end with a marriage contract with one of the white walkers.  

The main thrust of the plot, Aegon VI, Euron, the mystics, and some intrigue at KL as well as Arya/Dany is what its all about.

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6 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Show is different from the books. 

The books have told us time and time again the prince who was promised is what set off this chain of events. 

I agree, and @FictionIsntReal probably does too, yet, do you realice that you are claiming that The Others aren't important because of how they where represented in the show, while also claiming that the important things are things that where never mentioned in the show? it's nonsensical.

 

6 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Things will probably end with a marriage contract with one of the white walkers.  

I think this is a likely possibility, in fact I made a post about it but that doesn't mean they aren't important, in fact it would be a fitting thematic ending to the anti-war series, a battle won't save humanity, empathy, love even, will.

 

8 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

The main thrust of the plot, Aegon VI, Euron, the mystics, and some intrigue at KL as well as Arya/Dany is what its all about.

But this... I mean, Euron and Aegon can't be the main trust of the plot (and not just using your show logic, I mean, which characters arc was dumped on by the show more than Euron? Doran and who else?) but because it would make the bulk of the series pointless, if the main characcters are Aegon, Euron, Arya and Dany, what was the point in TWOT5K? just to have an explanation for Arya running around aimlessly? What's the point of following Jon for four books if he's not important? Whats the point of Davos? of Tyrion, of Sansa, of Cat and Bran? What's the point of Cersei, Jaimie and Brianne? Some are secondary or even tertiary characters, but they are within storylines that you are disregarding completely, which would turn them into nothing more than extras. 

Tyrion is the character with the most chapters, what for? if he only appears in the 'real' story by the fifth book, never interacting with anyone of note until the latest book.

After him comes Jon, and according to your list of characters, he interacts with Arya in his first two chapters and then he does nothing of importance

 

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8 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I agree, and @FictionIsntReal probably does too, yet, do you realice that you are claiming that The Others aren't important because of how they where represented in the show, while also claiming that the important things are things that where never mentioned in the show? it's nonsensical.

Thing is they added the Night King which tells me there was nothing grand enough in the books to translate to screen.  

It more about what the show did do than what it didn't do. 

 

8 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

 

But this... I ean, Euron and Aegon can't be the main trust of the plot (and not just using your show logic, I mean, which characters arc was dumped on by the show more than Euron? Doran and who else?) but because it would make the bulk of the series pointless, if the main characcters are Aegon, Euron, Arya and Dany, what was the point in TWOT5K? just to have an explanation for Arya running around aimlessly? What's the point of following Jon for four books if he's not important? Whats the point of Davos? of Tyrion, of Sansa, of Cat and Bran? What's the point of Cersei, Jaimie and Brianne? Some are secondary or even tertiary characters, but they are within storylines that you are disregarding completely, which would turn them into nothing more than extras. 

Tyrion is the character with the most chapters, what for? if he only appears in the 'real' story by the fifth book, never interacting with anyone of note until the latest book.

After him comes Jon, and according to your list of characters, he interacts with Arya in his first two chapters and then he does nothing of importance

 

Stannis will probably be important as well. My point the main plot isn't going to boil down to a conflict with a bunch of ice zombies we've barely heard of. The real conflict will be with the mysteries that are already part of the world. 

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