Rose of Red Lake Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 1 hour ago, El Guapo said: There is absolutely nothing in the text to say that the wineseller's daughter was a "little girl" or that the wineseller and his daughter were most likely innocent. Anyone claiming such things is just letting their bias show against the character. Lovely. If you're opposed to torture, you're "biased" It was multiple daughters and a wineseller already tried to kill her once. Now another wineseller is trying to take her down? Hahaha what the fuuuuuck yo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said: Lovely. If you're opposed to torture, you're "biased" It was multiple daughters and a wineseller already tried to kill her once. Now another wineseller is trying to take her down? Hahaha what the fuuuuuck yo Nothing I said was incorrect based on the text other than the fact yes it was more than one daughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 Just now, El Guapo said: Nothing I said was incorrect based on the text other than the fact yes it was more than one daughter. Two, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted February 3, 2021 Author Share Posted February 3, 2021 5 minutes ago, SeanF said: That’s like saying there are only two moral alternatives. Perfection, or being Ramsay Bolton. Daenerys is plainly better than the masters. That does not make her super special, because no one is super special. Saying Dany is better than the masters is like saying she's better than Hitler. Yeah, of course she is. I can't see how that matter for the debate at hand though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 13 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Our hero everybody! Seriously though, in the ranking of fucked up shit Dany does in Meereen this is definitely second after the crucifixions. What do you consider the appropriate penalty for crucifying and disembowelling 163 children? I'm currently doing an MA on the Peninsular War. Had a French military unit crucified 153 children, and then fallen into the hands of the Spanish partidas, I'm pretty sure the latter would not be in the mood for mercy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted February 3, 2021 Author Share Posted February 3, 2021 Just now, SeanF said: What do you consider the appropriate penalty for crucifying and disembowelling 163 children? Finding all the guilty ones and executing them, maybe crucifying them as a warning. But not 163 random guys. That's punitive revenge, not justice. Justice would have been finding out who was involved, who proposed it, and who agreed to it. Or are you saying every single one of the 163 people were guilty of the crucifixions? 2 minutes ago, SeanF said: I'm currently doing an MA on the Peninsular War. Had a French military unit crucified 153 children, and then fallen into the hands of the Spanish, I'm pretty sure the latter would not be in the mood for mercy. Mate the Peninsular war is not a good example for what humane just behavior is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron the Daring Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 12 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said: Lovely. If you're opposed to torture, you're "biased" It was multiple daughters and a wineseller already tried to kill her once. Now another wineseller is trying to take her down? Hahaha what the fuuuuuck yo Dude, the actual scenario is this: Two Unsullied are POISONED in the Wineshop they usually, and daily drink. Then the whole staff gets arrested, noone else. The people who worked there. The guy and his daughters (means that they're old enough to serve). But noone else. AND they have no clue who else might have been in the Wineshop because the dude refuses to tell ANYTHING. I'd like to know what makes you protect him. If you're incompetent, at least don't talk bullshit, let others speak. Altough I do not agree with torturing anyone. Threatening the guy with his daughters' safety might be acceptable or something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 20 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Finding all the guilty ones and executing them, maybe crucifying them as a warning. But not 163 random guys. That's punitive revenge, not justice. Justice would have been finding out who was involved, who proposed it, and who agreed to it. Or are you saying every single one of the 163 people were guilty of the crucifixions? Mate the Peninsular war is not a good example for what humane just behavior is The crucifixion of the children was not done in secret, nor was it the work of out of control underlings. It was a very public act, a ruling class collectively bloodying its hands. Those who died were adult male members of the ruling class, not freedmen, ordinary people, women or children. So, yes, I would hold them all guilty. However, many more of the guilty walked. You’re seeking modern jurisprudence in a world where the Hammurabai Code would be considered enlightened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay21 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 i 25 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Well, if the masters are so rebellion to go to war over something like that, then she definitely should have done it. Sure it's not a good idea to provoke people into rebellion, but if by "provoke" they understand regular ass shit, then you should definitely do it. That rebellion is what she's trying to avoid. I don't personally believe that what she wants to achieve in Mereen is possible, but in my view her whole time in the city is spent weighing various evils and trying to chose the lesser of the two. She has made the decision that she is going to change Slavers' Bay, but Slavers' Bay was quite happy the way it was. As long as the situation remains the choices she has are always going to be the same sort and her hands will get bloody and bloodier. In my mind she needs to leave Mereen, but she has created a situation that she can never abandon and so in the name of breaking chains and freeing slaves she is now torturing people who may or may not be her enemies. I don't know which way she goes, but I don't think that her actions are particularly sadistic or immoral. As long as she insists on changing Slavers' Bay though, they're going to be necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 We come down to killing the nobles because they are nobles even if they are innocent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 54 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said: Either Dany is super special and better than the masters who ruled before, or she is just the same as the masters, it can't be both. She can't be both exceptionally different while also practicing ordinary random violence like everyone else. Sorry but no. Dany is batter than the masters, way better even. That doesn't mean she can have some (many) flaws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 3 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: We come down to killing the nobles because they are nobles even if they are innocent? They are as “innocent” as Les Grand Blancs of St. Domingue. You can’t be part of the ruling class of a society where five sixths of the people are slaves and claim innocence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 7 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: We come down to killing the nobles because they are nobles even if they are innocent? They can't be both noble and innocent. Much like the masters, all of them should die. Edit: Yeah, what @SeanF said above, and for Westeros too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted February 3, 2021 Author Share Posted February 3, 2021 19 minutes ago, SeanF said: You’re seeking modern jurisprudence in a world where the Hammurabai Code would be considered enlightened. Not really. The justice system is a mess with no possibility of appeal or a truly fair trial, but the punishments handed out are pretty normal for a pre enlightenment country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 1 minute ago, SeanF said: They are as “innocent” as Les Grand Blancs of St. Domingue. You can’t be part of the ruling class of a society where five sixths of the people are slaves and claim innocence. They were punished for being slavers or for the 163 children? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 4 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Not really. The justice system is a mess with no possibility of appeal or a truly fair trial, but the punishments handed out are pretty normal for a pre enlightenment country. You mean like letting a sickly 8 year old decide whether or not you should be flung 1000 feet to your death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 Just now, Lilac & Gooseberries said: They were punished for being slavers or for the 163 children? They were punished for being the leaders of a city, whose government murdered 163 children. I’ve seen nothing in the text to suggest any degree of opposition to this atrocity, among the city’s leaders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 7 minutes ago, CamiloRP said: Sorry but no. Dany is batter than the masters, way better even. That doesn't mean she can have some (many) flaws. If she kills and tortures randomly by group, she is no better than them. The road to hell and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 7 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Not really. The justice system is a mess with no possibility of appeal or a truly fair trial, but the punishments handed out are pretty normal for a pre enlightenment country. Well, we’ve discussed on the other thread, how anything we would consider due process does not exist in this world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said: If she kills and tortures randomly by group, she is no better than them. The road to hell and all that. An ethical standard which would condemn every single leader and commander in this world. Collective punishment is the norm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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