War Won't Save The World

[Mourning Star]

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But it isn't. He looks to a place in the Land of Always Winter, not in the Haunted Forest:

There is no way that the Heart of Winter is some cave in the middle of the Haunted Forest.

It would also make no sense to build up a cool place beyond the dead plains where nothing grew and lived to then just turn into some cave where a lot of people actually live.

It is.

You cut off the end of the vision.

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Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live.
"Why?" Bran said, not understanding, falling, falling.
Because winter is coming.
Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge. Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid.

Or, if you prefer, it might not be the "Heart of Winter", but still in all other ways what I was talking about, the heart of the problem, if the name itself is what bothers you. I don't think this term is ever mentioned again.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

I somehow agree with the op. The balance is the answer while the extermination of Ice isn’t. What I disagree with is that the war will not be needed. Until both ice and fire are under control war is necessary to keep them there. Neither ice or fire can be left alone and only war can made it happen.

Apart from that Bravo! Amazing analysis!

[FictionIsntReal]

11 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

he thinks some war are justified yes, but that not the same as writing a series that ends with war saving the world, as even tho he thinks some wars are justified, he doesn't think war will save the world

If WW2 was necessary to save part of the world, why can't a larger-than-life fantasy war be necessary to save the whole world? The warring between humans in the series suffices to convey the anti-war message GRRM actually endorses.

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He still has two books

He still hasn't covered a Dothraki invasion of Westeros, so I don't think he'll have that much time in at least one of those two books.

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the Others have barely showed up in the previous five

EVERY time they have showed up they were exactly as evil/anti-human as they are reputed to be.

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That's what you and many others think, maybe what George wants us to think, and maybe even the point of the story

I was under the impression he had even said as much.

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tho you don't know wether they have genes or not

In the pitch letter he uses the term "neverborn". If you were never born, you don't need genes.

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a) cliche b) something he never wrote before and c) a persistent and problematic aspect of fantasy that has racist undertones

He doesn't avoid all cliches. And there's enough human diversity to illustrate issues regarding "othering" humans. The Others literally are not human and not even any form of biological life. They can stand in for an abstract concept, as the undead often do.

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Ned spends most of his time in KL concerned about the Lannisters, them sending the catspaw after Bran is the biggest reason he can't make peace with them when LF offers

LF wasn't acting as a representative of the Lannisters offering peace terms they'd accept, he was making a dishonorable recommendation of planned betrayal a la Gorys Edoryen. Cersei rejected Ned's offer to spare her life, saying the choices come down to winning the throne or dying. And of course Cersei's actual offer was to sleep with Ned in exchange for him betraying King Robert by withholding from him the knowledge that his "children" in line for the throne were the bastard spawn of incest.

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I was talking about Mel literally and figuratively othering people, which she does, and it causes her to burn innocent people alive

Those are people. The actual Others aren't. They really are as simply evil as Mel believes. Mel is wrong about "innocent people".

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the Tywin killed more people by his word alone

We observe Tywin kill more people because the Others have been in the books so sparingly (for example, unlike in the show, we only hear about Hardhome rather than getting to see it). The wildlings fear the Others, but because we didn't have POVs among them prior to Jon joining, we didn't see any of that. We also know that Tywin is willing to make peace after his defeated enemies bend the knee. The Others have never shown any interest in that.

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Also, everything you say here can be said of the Humans by the Others

The Others have been attacking the humans and then turning their dead into wights to kill more humans. Humans have not been doing anything comparable to the Others.

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There needs to be a reason why we are reading this story tho

Stories of narrowly surviving are interesting.

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He's still been raised to fear them anywhay, they where the monsters in his bedtime stories, everything he knows about them is that they are evil monsters, is the only truth we are presented with. Shouldn't that be subverted?

No. Ned was right in the ethical lessons he taught to his kids, and Old Nan is right when she tells stories of ancient magic.

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No it isn't, we actually know that before we know Jon Snow is real.

We know it, the surviving characters don't. GRRM deliberately provides blinkered POVs who don't know the whole story, whereas readers with access to all the different POVs get to see the ways in which those POVs are wrong.

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The information we have on the Others has remained constant since the first chapter of the series: they are inhuman, they are evil, they wan't to kill humanity, we will fight them for our survival.

That consistency indicates GRRM not subverting anything.

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Specially given how much of a problematic fantasy trope it is.

ASOIAF is full of "problematic" stuff.

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'this time the good guys wear black' is at most a weak commentary, and it's no deconstruction as there still is a good vs bad fight.

You might call it weak and say it doesn't count, but that is GRRM's own effort. And the Watch aren't just in dark clothing, they also consist heavily of criminals so as to ruin the romanticized ideal Jon had of them. Some of them are seriously bad, as we see from Chett's POV in the ASoS prologue. But even his band of conspiring mutineers contains an innocent like Small Paul. And while a number of the survivors take part in the mutiny at Craster's Keep, Donnell Hill was one of them who doesn't and remains as a loyal man under Jon. The men of the Watch get to be morally complex, and the most honorably among them perform a public service by defending the Wall. Tywin is cynical enough to be fine with Mance Rayder overrunning the Wall and the North, whereas Stannis finally shows he's worthy of being king when he sails north to defend the Wall and the seven kingdoms.

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But we see and understand the POVs of the Freys, Slavers and the people the BWB fight, in some cases we are in their heads.

I think the one POV we get is of Merritt Frey, who at most only fits two of those categories.

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And still those aren't the main battles, the main battle is Stannis vs the Lannisters, the Freys and Boltons are henchmen

The majority of POVs in the first book were from the Stark family. The Freys & Boltons betraying the loyal Northmen is a huge part of the story. Stannis has sailed away from the "main battle" against the Lannisters to the more important struggle up north.

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In the case of Dany and the Slavers the story is much more about negotiation and inner conflict that it is about war, and even in the case of war we spend time in the master's camp and know their plans to an extent.

The slavers are an incompetent enemy whose coming defeat (even without Dany & her dragons) is so obvious they don't count as much of a real threat/challenge.

[Didn't know you were a pacifist.]
I was referring to Bryan Caplan. And if you click that link and follow through his justification for waging "war" against nests of yellowjackets on his property you'll see why he morally distinguishes that from warring against humans.

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now take out all non-Stark POVs

It should be noted that while we did get multiple POVs during Blackwater, we only saw the Watch's POV when Mance Rayder attacked the Wall. And at Meereen, we only got the POVs of the people already arrayed against the slavers, and those like Tyrion who would switch to that side. And I do think some of these issues are related to why GRRM keeps dragging out the political story and not getting to the later stuff promised in the pitch letter.

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Or just borders? like they did with the COTF?

What are the "borders" with the CotF?

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My money is on the COTF

You think they caused the Others to attack in the prologue? How would they do that, and wouldn't they expect the Others to go back to exterminating the Children as they had during the Long Night that justified the alliance with humans in the first place?

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The peace was completely unfair for the Children, the humans get much more than then

That does typically happen to the loser in a war.

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Bran is angry about what humans did to the COTF, so they should be too

Angry enough to throw away what little they have left?

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It won't if the Andals doing it is what caused the Children to do all of this.

If the Children were necessary to cause this, then the Andal campaign of extermination would have prevented it if allowed to proceed.

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Yes, but it'd still leave a message of 'war saving humanity' which is something GRRM does not agree with

I don't think you actually know GRRM disagrees with that.

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I've been working in the publication industry for five years now. You never put the twist in the pitch letter.

The pitch letter actually mentions that there will be a revelation of Jon's true parentage in the final volume. That's a twist referenced in it.

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I think basically the entire point of the greenseer concept is that history and memory never have to die.

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for the part of this hypothetical evil greenseer would be to abandon those plans and finally seek solace in death

Why would a greenseer ever die? Can't they just live forever in the trees?

6 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I would be willing to bet that the answer here is very reminiscent of LotR.

You can't beat the army, you have to take out the source of the power.

Plausible. It somewhat resembles the show's Load Bearing Boss.

[Daeron the Daring]

13 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

It is literally highlighted as being the original keep, but of course things changed? Are you really just trolling?

It has time worn Gargoyles and all.  Not only that, the discrepancy is highlighted in the World of Ice and Fire in case you missed it in series

So you're suggesting that those worn Gargoyles were made fucking 8 millenia ago? Dude.

13 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

They may never have disappeared at all, just been far north. People in Westeros didn't even believe in Giants. I'm not sure why this is relevant.

When I said they dissapeared, I meant dissapearing, wherever they've been, not going extinct. It is relevant because the things we know about the Others might not only be 8000 years old discoveries. They might be only a few hundred years old, given that we know dragonsteel (which, many believe is valyrian steel) hurts them, but simple steel or metal does not. And people forgot about them because they showed up again recently, in the past few years or months.

13 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

In that darkness, the Others came for the first time," she said as her needles went click click click. "They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. 

Dude, this does not confirm that the First Men worked iron when the Others for the first time appeared. Considering that Old Nan knew nothing about dragonsteel (whatever it is) and dragonglass regarding the Others shows how he only told Bran the tales she heard, and isn't the supermind greenseer or whatever else some suggest here for her real identity. My suggestion was that the Others were detected after the Andal invasion too. That gives an explanation on why people know they hate iron (and we don't even know what that means).

13 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Iron predates the Andals in Westeros.

And the First Men used bronze against the Andals for the sake of fun, right? 

Oh, and wait, only the North knew how to work iron, and they kept their secret in their own little Area 51, so that people south the Neck will not get their hands on their big secret and advantage. Oh, and we have 4000 years old ironsword down the crypts, right? 

Or wait, the Andal invasion didn't even happen because they couldn't stand a chance against the notatall primitive first men.

13 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Don't understand what you are trying to say here. But the lack of writing is presented as the reason for a lack of accurate history.

I was telling you that the First Men were pretty primitive compared to the Andals. When the Andals began their conquest, it is said that the Children were living south of the Neck too. They got wiped out by the andals. In a conclusion, that means that the First Men were able to live together with the children in peace, on separated territories, but still. The Andals destroyed this system, but the North was pretty hard to conquer for being so isolated. And with my reply, I was just telling you that don't get into things that do not matter in our conversation (and the question  wasn't that the first men were primitive or not).

13 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Obviously if you could skinchange and store memories in animals and trees writing is unnecessary.

Yet they used runes to store information, didn't they? If greenseers are really able to store information in the weirwoods, and currently have an acces to thousand years old informations, that doesn't mean everyone was allowed to know the past and its secrets. Just look at the Night's King, and how people tried to erase every knowledge about him. 8 thousand years later we are both suggesting that the bad we know about the Night's King is a fabricated version made up by the ones who tried to erase everything about him. 

Obviously, if you can store memories, why all the effort from the Stark King and Joramun to erase every knowledge about the Night's King? Because simple folk and even the ancient nobles couldn't acces this database, only the greenseers, if there's such a thing.

13 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Ok, almost all of this is wrong.

We don't know the Night's King's name at all, explicitly.

We obviously don't know the name of the Night's King. But we know that he was a LC, was called the Night's King and all. So his name is the Night's King. The original one we don't know, but that's still a way to refer to him, even when you're counting LC's.

We don't know if the list includes the Night's King, or if it does, his original name is written down, or is just mentioned as the 13th LC: Night's King.

But how could they remember every Lord Commander? Explain to me. Sure, the names of some are forgotten forever, but I am pretty sure those who's names aren't mentioned, were LC's before the Andal invasion, given that First men didn't really wrote down anything on a paper, and later historians collected their names, from tales and such. But there's no explanation why couldn't a LC's name be written down after the Andal invasion. The logical assumption is that we know the names of the latest ones, especially after the invasion, and we have names before the Andals too, but those are likely collected from stories, so the names of the noteworthy ones were remembered, but other, not that importan names were forgotten.

As a conclusion, the First Men were pretty much as primitive as the Maesters described it, including the Starks too. That's why we don't know he name of every LC, the tales of the NK are false, and such things. But yes, it might be that greenseers can store information and memories in the weirwoods, but not many people have an acces to this. That's probably why Westerosi history is incomplete and inaccurate. The Andals pretty much wrote down their history, and they said that First Men only had bronze swords and were pretty primitive, and Children were living in the southern forests too, among the first men.

Also, Old Nan was talking about giant spiders, but wasn't talking about dragonglass or dragonsteel. That shows how he told Bran the tales she heard, but that's nothing more. She does not know anything more than what the stories tell about the Others south the Wall. Also, if she's some kind of mythical greenseer or witch, why doesn't she tell the truth about the NK, and several other things? All she's saying are the simple tales that one can hear everywhere.

[Rose of Red Lake]

I agree, I dont think war has to be the solution, just people working together somehow. 

[CamiloRP]

18 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

@CamiloRP, the main problem with your idea is that it's slightly built up on something wrong.

The others appeared where they didn't before. How were they insulted, so that it would make humans the guilty ones?

The freefolk beyond the Wall reached a point when they couldn't stand the threat of the Others anymore, and decided to put everything on crossing the wall.

We've seen what happened with Ser Waymar and the other companion of Gared. We've also seen what happened at the Fist od the First Men. We've also seen how the raised dead ranger went straight for Jeor Mormont. 

Anything they want, they seem to have to cross the Wall and break humanity to get it. That, however, still doesn't make them the pure and ethernal evil some imagine them here.

First of all, the First Men were pretty primitive, not as advanced as the Andals. It is said that the Children and the First Men were keeping their pact until the Andals came. They also gained the ability of skinchanging and greenseeing some way (The hell not half human, half children babies). Why would they manipulate the white walkers? Why not the humans then? They are clearly not the manipulative third side. They'll be some kind of last-minute backup, if you ask me.

Stating this, let's talk about the Night's King a little bit. It is said that he fell in love with a female white walker, and married her too. By giving her his seed, he gave her her soul too. It doesn't sound that bad, does it? I mean, giving your soul to your loved one. Notice that he gave her his seed to. Then we are told that he'd done terrible things in his 13 years of reigning. But I'll ask you, did he? He was a sorcerer, and if his 'corpse' queen was really just a white walker, wouldn't Joramun and the King of Winter, a Stark, would consider it a threat? Wouldn't they consider the Night's King a dead men if his body was just simply cold? Shouldn't we expect people, even Joramun and the Stark from Winterfell to misjudge his situation? I think yes. Given that after they put him down, they were destroying every existence of his existence, couldn't we get the false picture of him? I do actually think he was a positive character, and a Stark too (for reasons neither I am clear about), but people misjudged him. I know there's no guarantee that it was the good part (if there ever was a good part, or a bad one, not just neutral and equal) about him that got destroyed, but take into consideration that the current Stark King and Joramun too were against him. This does not put them into thr negative category of characters, tho, but given that men didn't really like the Night's King in general (because their leaders didn't), it's pretty easy to believe in something bad about someone you don't really like. Approaching the Night's King from this direction, doesn't he sound like a fusion of Ice (what people called death in him) and Fire (life)? Doesn't he parallel Jon someway (given that he's got assasinated and will be ressurected)? Isn't it Jon who's about to bring balance and peace and whatever else he has to?  Couldn't we imagine the Night's King doing some way the same thing? And note that he was able to give her queen his seed too.

Either way, I think war between the living and the dead is inevitable, it's like God (George) said it'll happen, so it will. But it won't be the solution of oue problem, nor wiping out the White Walkers will be, I think. That means, we gotta get a solution to our problems, someway. That'll be TPTWP.

On what purpose TPTWP will have, I don't know. I am imagining him/her more like the tales about the Last Hero and the simple prophecy about him (TPTWP) that doesn't include the bullshit the Faith of R'hllor puts to it, given that R'hllor simply has nothing to do with Westeros, because it's a territory of the Old Gods and the weirwoods, or any magical supernatural thingy controlling the continent.

But I didn't say the Others were without fault. I think they are victims of the same bias humans are, and so, when they see them they see this ancient enemies, and kill them.

Also, the battle might happen, but I think that if it does it won't be portrayed as a good thing.

[CamiloRP]

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I rather think somebody with a dragon will fly up there. Walking to the Heart of Winter is out of the question. The cold would just kill them, especially in winter. And even if they had magical fur and stuff, then the Others and wights would find some way to take them out. They would have to cross the entire Land of Always Winter.

And I'd also expect the people to go there to be people imbued with fire, meaning that neither natural nor magical cold can harm/kill them. Which would make Melisandre one such character, and the other (possibly) Jon Snow after his resurrection.

The Others won't matter after the Heart of Winter is dealt with. George even went on record saying they didn't have a proper culture, so they really do not count as a proper species/society.

For all we know, dragons can't cross the Wall.

[FictionIsntReal]

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

For all we know, dragons can't cross the Wall.

If the Wall is physically destroyed, then perhaps its effectiveness as a magical barrier will end too.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

For all we know, dragons can't cross the Wall.

Silverwing wouldn't cross the Wall. That's not confirmation that dragons can't ... but rather that they do not like to do it. And I don't think because of the magic in the Wall but because Silverwing felt the Others beyond the Wall.

But even if dragons couldn't cross the Wall they could always circumvent it ... and as has been said it will eventually fall, meaning it's magic will no longer work.

The idea for a flight to the Heart of Winter on dragonback is a scenario for the grand finale, long after the Wall has fallen.

[Orion2]

@CamiloRP this is a rly cool idea, ive been thinking along similar lines

[CamiloRP]

3 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

If the Wall is physically destroyed, then perhaps its effectiveness as a magical barrier will end too.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Silverwing wouldn't cross the Wall. That's not confirmation that dragons can't ... but rather that they do not like to do it. And I don't think because of the magic in the Wall but because Silverwing felt the Others beyond the Wall.

But even if dragons couldn't cross the Wall they could always circumvent it ... and as has been said it will eventually fall, meaning it's magic will no longer work.

The idea for a flight to the Heart of Winter on dragonback is a scenario for the grand finale, long after the Wall has fallen.

Both fair points

[Mourning Star]

On 3/6/2021 at 6:47 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

So you're suggesting that those worn Gargoyles were made fucking 8 millenia ago? Dude.

I can't comment on the exact age as we don't really know, but they predate the Andal invasion, so likely thousands of years, yes.

Which isn't surprising at all, to anyone paying attention, given that other Valyrian stone constructions aren't touched by time.

They raced down Valyrian roads a thousand years old and straight as a Dothraki arrow.

Valyrian roads were wide enough for three wagons to pass abreast, and neither time nor traffic marred them.

And, further east, similar far older constructions also last:

Though Yi Ti is a vast land, much of it covered by dense forest and sweltering jungles, travel from one end of the empire to the other is swift and safe, for the great web of stone roads built by the Eunuch Emperors of old have no equal in all the world, save for the dragonroads of the Valyrians.

And where do we see gargoyles?

The maester stood on the windswept balcony outside his chambers. It was here the ravens came, after long flight. Their droppings speckled the gargoyles that rose twelve feet tall on either side of him, a hellhound and a wyvern, two of the thousand that brooded over the walls of the ancient fortress. When first he came to Dragonstone, the army of stone grotesques had made him uneasy, but as the years passed he had grown used to them. Now he thought of them as old friends. The three of them watched the sky together with foreboding.
The maester did not believe in omens. And yet . . . old as he was, Cressen had never seen a comet half so bright, nor yet that color, that terrible color, the color of blood and flame and sunsets. He wondered if his gargoyles had ever seen its like. They had been here so much longer than he had, and would still be here long after he was gone. If stone tongues could speak . . .

We know the gargoyles of Dragonstone have lasted. They may not be as completely unchanging as the fused black stone of the roads, or say the base of the Hightower, but they are made with magic.

The child had been plagued by nightmares as far back as Maester Cressen could recall. "We have talked of this before," he said gently. "The dragons cannot come to life. They are carved of stone, child. In olden days, our island was the westernmost outpost of the great Freehold of Valyria. It was the Valyrians who raised this citadel, and they had ways of shaping stone since lost to us. A castle must have towers wherever two walls meet at an angle, for defense. The Valyrians fashioned these towers in the shape of dragons to make their fortress seem more fearsome, just as they crowned their walls with a thousand gargoyles instead of simple crenellations." He took her small pink hand in his own frail spotted one and gave it a gentle squeeze. "So you see, there is nothing to fear."

And we see that Storms End still stands, so it's odd to me that what you take issue with is gargoyles' age...

But, frankly, you could learn to be a little less fucking rude, dude.

Dragonsteel isn't Valyrian Steel.

Valyria wasn't even founded yet when the Last hero was alive, the only reference we get to Dragonsteel.

But, they learned from older peoples who had magic crafting also, most notably and likely in particular is Asshai, an entire city of stone that has lasted for thousands of years.

[Mourning Star]

On 3/6/2021 at 6:47 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

Dude, this does not confirm that the First Men worked iron when the Others for the first time appeared. Considering that Old Nan knew nothing about dragonsteel (whatever it is) and dragonglass regarding the Others shows how he only told Bran the tales she heard, and isn't the supermind greenseer or whatever else some suggest here for her real identity. My suggestion was that the Others were detected after the Andal invasion too. That gives an explanation on why people know they hate iron (and we don't even know what that means).

Do you have any evidence at all for her not knowing something? Super weird assumption. Especially when the other hating iron is right next to them hating fire, and "dragonglass" is "frozen fire".

I'm firmly a believer that Old Nan is the three eyed crow, I can't speak to what anyone says about superminds.

I don't know what you mean by "detected" but the Andal's had written language and so written history. We know these stories predate that, so while we can know very little, especially in the way of dates, we know it predates the Andals.

 The Starks may well be older, but their legends came before the First Men had letters

On 3/6/2021 at 6:47 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

And the First Men used bronze against the Andals for the sake of fun, right? 

Oh, and wait, only the North knew how to work iron, and they kept their secret in their own little Area 51, so that people south the Neck will not get their hands on their big secret and advantage. Oh, and we have 4000 years old ironsword down the crypts, right? 

Or wait, the Andal invasion didn't even happen because they couldn't stand a chance against the notatall primitive first men.

What are you on about?

The North wasn't conquered by the Andals, and the Andals had steel.

Iron is not steel. What is left in the crypts is rust. Bronze does not rust (literally because it contains little or no iron).

Forging steel is leaps and bounds more advanced than basic ironworking. For some perspective, the bronze age irl started about 3000 BC while the iron age began about 500 BC. The Iron Pillar of Delhi is the oldest know example of rust resistant steel and dates from roughly 400 AD.  In the real world, as in ASoIaF, knowledge of metal working generally moved from the east to the west. (A notable exception in Westeros likely applies).

I'm suggesting that the Starks conquered or drove off the Kings of the First men, like the barrow king, warg king, and Blackwoods, just like we have been told.

By ancient custom an iron longsword had been laid across the lap of each who had been Lord of Winterfell, to keep the vengeful spirits in their crypts. The oldest had long ago rusted away to nothing, leaving only a few red stains where the metal had rested on stone. Ned wondered if that meant those ghosts were free to roam the castle now. He hoped not. The first Lords of Winterfell had been men hard as the land they ruled. In the centuries before the Dragonlords came over the sea, they had sworn allegiance to no man, styling themselves the Kings in the North.

The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it's not them I'm afraid of.

They'd only had one candle between them, and Bran's eyes had gotten as big as saucers as he stared at the stone faces of the Kings of Winter, with their wolves at their feet and their iron swords across their laps.

They had three tomb swords taken from the crypts of Winterfell where Bran and his brother Rickon had hidden from Theon Greyjoy's ironmen. Bran claimed his uncle Brandon's sword, Meera the one she found upon the knees of his grandfather Lord Rickard. Hodor's blade was much older, a huge heavy piece of iron, dull from centuries of neglect and well spotted with rust.

In fact, we have a people literally called the "ironborn", who had no problem defeating the First Men (outside the North) before the Andals ever showed up.

Archmaester Haereg once advanced the interesting notion that the ancestors of the ironborn came from some unknown land west of the Sunset Sea, citing the legend of the Seastone Chair. The throne of the Greyjoys, carved into the shape of a kraken from an oily black stone, was said to have been found by the First Men when they first came to Old Wyk. Haereg argued that the chair was a product of the first inhabitants of the islands, and only the later histories of maesters and septons alike began to claim that they were in fact descended of the First Men. 

And I find it hard to believe that a people didn't have ironworking before they called themselves "greyiron".

"On Old Wyk," confirmed Lord Rodrik. "Though I pray it is not bloody. I have been consulting Haereg's History of the Ironborn. When last the salt kings and the rock kings met in kingsmoot, Urron of Orkmont let his axemen loose among them, and Nagga's ribs turned red with gore. House Greyiron ruled unchosen for a thousand years from that dark day, until the Andals came."

And the Ironborn were pretty much uncontested south of the Neck until First Men technology started to catch up:

The list is admittedly incomplete and rife with contradictions, yet none can doubt that the driftwood kings reached the zenith of their power under Qhored I Hoare (given as Greyiron in some accounts, and as Blacktyde in others), who wrote his name in blood in the histories of Westeros as Qhored the Cruel. King Qhored ruled over the ironborn for three-quarters of a century, living to the ripe old age of ninety. By his day, the First Men of the green lands had largely abandoned the shores of the Sunset Sea for fear of the reavers. And those who remained, chiefly lords in stout castles, paid tribute to the ironborn.
It was Qhored who famously boasted that his writ ran "wherever men could smell salt water or hear the crash of waves." In his youth, he captured and sacked Oldtown, bringing thousands of women and girls back to the Iron Islands in chains. At thirty, he defeated the Lords of the Trident in battle, forcing the river king Bernarr II to bend the knee and yield up his three young sons as hostages. Three years later, he put the boys to death with his own hand, cutting out their hearts when their father's annual tribute was late in coming. When their grieving sire went to war to avenge them, King Qhored and his ironmen destroyed Bernarr's host and had him drowned as a sacrifice to the Drowned God, putting an end to House Justman and throwing the riverlands into bloody anarchy.
But after Qhored, a slow decline began. The kings who followed Qhored played a part in that, yet the men of the green lands were likewise growing stronger. The First Men were building longships of their own, their towns defended by stone walls in place of wooden palisades and spiked ditches.

But, it does not seem the King's of Winter suffered a similar fate as the rest of the First Men, just like when the Andals arrived.

[Daeron the Daring]

20 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I can't comment on the exact age as we don't really know, but they predate the Andal invasion, so likely thousands of years, yes.

Dude, the suggestion that a stone building and even gargoyles can survive 4 thousand years is impossible? Do you understand what that means? 

20 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Which isn't surprising at all, to anyone paying attention, given that other Valyrian stone constructions aren't touched by time.

But the First Keep's material looks nothing like valyrian stone or the material of the Seastone Chair or the Black Stone Fortress on the Battle Isle. The only interesting part is that it has a round shape, and even the its gargoyles are said to be well worn, while none of the examples mentioned above have this kind of effect on them because they're ancient.

You're just making up things and defending your point with half thruths. The thruth is, the First Keep isn't made out of black stone, and we also know Storm's End also has a round shape. 

And *surprise*, no material survives millenias (except for this black stone), not even a single one (altough this might be possible given that magic was used making these holdings, that means that these buildings and walls need renovation as time passes. That means that 90% of Storm's End's materials was already replaced, but of course this doesn't have to change the look of the castle. 

You are talking here with an amount of incompetence that it's hard to handle. (For example, claiming that builings survive for 8000 years).

20 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Dragonsteel isn't Valyrian Steel.

Valyria wasn't even founded yet when the Last hero was alive, the only reference we get to Dragonsteel.

But, they learned from older peoples who had magic crafting also, most notably and likely in particular is Asshai, an entire city of stone that has lasted for thousands of years.

We don't know if dragonsteel is valyrian steel or not. 

And again, you missed my whole point: That the Others did not dissapear after the Long Night. That is because the children regularly gave the NW dragonglass weapons for a long-long time, even in the last thousand years. That means that they had around 4000 years to claim this knowledge.

19 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Do you have any evidence at all for her not knowing something? Super weird assumption. Especially when the other hating iron is right next to them hating fire, and "dragonglass" is "frozen fire".

I'm firmly a believer that Old Nan is the three eyed crow, I can't speak to what anyone says about superminds.

Yes, that she only told stories to Bran that 1000 others can tell the same story, or even more, given the actual fact that he said nothing more than 'general' northern knowledge.

And she mentioned nothing compared to what Sam simply found out with reading trough some books in Castel Black's library.

But, do you have any evidence that she is the Three-Eyed Raven?

19 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I don't know what you mean by "detected" but the Andal's had written language and so written history. We know these stories predate that, so while we can know very little, especially in the way of dates, we know it predates the Andals.

Just the same as they found out what they know about them regarding dragonsteel. The Others showed up long after the Andals came too. This I explained to earlier, but you decided to be an ignorant and call me rude instead.

 

19 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

The North wasn't conquered by the Andals, and the Andals had steel.

Iron is not steel. What is left in the crypts is rust. Bronze does not rust (literally because it contains little or no iron).

Forging steel is leaps and bounds more advanced than basic ironworking. For some perspective, the bronze age irl started about 3000 BC while the iron age began about 500 BC. The Iron Pillar of Delhi is the oldest know example of rust resistant steel and dates from roughly 400 AD.  In the real world, as in ASoIaF, knowledge of metal working generally moved from the east to the west. (A notable exception in Westeros likely applies).

I'm suggesting that the Starks conquered or drove off the Kings of the First men, like the barrow king, warg king, and Blackwoods, just like we have been told.

Dude, the fact that they used bronze in battle means that they couldn't work iron well enough to make weapons out of them. And again, it doesn't take thousand of years for an iron sword to eust entirely in such a wet place. Not even hundreds of years. Just look how the best sword they could find were so rusty.

We are also told that the Andals didn't really orientate on the North, but the few who tried were killed instantly, and their heads put on spikes on the eastern coast of the North. And later, every Andal conquest failed because the Neck amd Moat Cailin, not because notherners werw any more advanced than other Westerosi.

19 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

In fact, we have a people literally called the "ironborn", who had no problem defeating the First Men (outside the North) before the Andals ever showed up.

Yep, and we are told that for some reason they were more advanced than First Men, and some even claim they are originated from somewhere west to Westeros. And between a fertile, and a not that fertile option, one can see why they went on the more fertile and unstable one.

[Daeron the Daring]

11 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

You know this is a fictional story right? You need to base speculation in the text because obviously reality doesn't apply to everything in the story.

There are many stone structures in this story that have been around for thousands of years, so I don't know what you are talking about, it is not only possible but we have many examples.

Oh, come on, there's no indication that the First Keep was built with help of magic, and fantasy doesn't mean that everything is influenced by magic. We do have examples of keeps being ruined by time. 

15 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

The gargoyles of Dragonstone are worn also... and aren't made out of black stone, nor is the Hightower, or Storm's End.

Nor was I ever claiming the opposite. I was saying that the gargoyles arent several thousand years old.

17 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Who said anything about it being made of black stone?

You compared the First Keep to building made out of black stone, while there's no indication or hint that the First Keep or any building's current form is several thousand years old, or that time hase no effect on Westerosi buildings. Instead, we are told that it is unnatural that buildings made out of black stone aren't get weary as time passes, which makes me logically assuming that this is not relevant for other buildings and materials. 

25 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

This is demonstrably false. You must be trolling.

There is not only no reason to believe storms end has been rebuilt from the ground up, and every reason to think it hasn't, but there are other relics from ridiculously long ago in the story. From stone to wood to swords. 

Get over it.

Oh my God.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renovation

Here's the definition of the word too:

Renovations (also called remodeling) is the process of improving a broken, damaged, or outdated structure.Additionally, renovation can refer to making something new, or bringing something back to life.

I meant correcting the places time and weather damages. Obviously.

Where have you seen wooden items that lasted for millenias, save for weirwood? Where have you seen weapons that lasted for millenias, save for VS and Dawn?

36 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

We know it is not. Valyria didnt exist when the Last hero used dragonsteel. If you want to say its the same material, fine, I still think you are wrong, but it can't possibly have come from Valyria.

Noone said that the last hero's sword came from Valyria, dude. Noone. Don't make up things and present it like I said it.

37 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

You are rude, and a troll, and there is no evidence at all the Andals interacted with the Others in ASoIaF.

How can someone misunderstand a simple sentence so hard?

I wasn't refering to the Andals directly, I was refering to the NW, who received for some obvious reason dragonglass weapons for thousands of years.

40 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

don't know what your point is... Traditions can't possibly last past their practical use? 

My point is what directly was wrote down there, man. How can interpretation be so hard, I'm as simple as I could. If you claim it to be a tradition, why they stopped doing it? You're again talking nonsense.

42 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Why do you think this? Do you have any evidence or just more trolling...

Why? Because these are nothing more than stories a man can hear even south to the Neck. We have examples for such people. The Others are nothing but bedtime stories all over Westeros to everyone, and people are keep telling it. Old Nan said nothing more than general knowledge (as I proved, you probably missed that too, as many of my points). 

45 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Again, blatantly wrong.

No, it's not. Did she ever talk about dragonsteel or dragonglass? Not really. For some reason yoir 3EC let down Bran and his friends, and even let them pass the Wall for no reason, right? 

I mean, that's what you claim with your suggestion that Old Nan is the 3EC.

48 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Yes lots.

For example? Risking Bran's life for nothing?

 

49 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

What? You are suggesting they made iron swords and didn't use them? 

Come on... 

No, I am obviously suggesting they couldn't use a better material for weapons than bronze. That's why they used bronze. My point is pretty simple here.

 

51 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

We know the Andals fought and lost against the North. The Neck doesn't protect from seafaring peoples, like the Andals or the Ironborn.

Well, I was backing my point with what TWOIAF says. Do you have any other source material than everyone else on this forum that contradicts or makes it false? If not, your whole point that advancement saved The North is .

55 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

So you accept that the Ironborn were not from Westeros but dismiss the idea that anyone else could have been influenced by advanced technology not known to the First Men in Westeros... got it.

Given the actual fact that the Ironborn were more advanced than First Man before the Andals for thousands of years(regarding ships, of course), yes, I think it's more possible than unknown misteryous advancement up North.

Also, the Ironborn might have worked iron the way First Men couldn't but still being unable to make proper weapons.

And it's pretty obvious why they began using iron: It's the only thing they had on the islands.

59 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Maybe work on being more polite and using the text as a source and you could be taken more seriously.

It is you who doesn't take any word or suggestion seriously because it doesn't fit into your bright idea. That where the problem comes from.

But please, don't bother answering me, I've got enough of you, and I will not continue this 'conversation' of ours, simply because I explained myself more times than I should've been.

[Mourning Star]

1 minute ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Oh, come on, there's no indication that the First Keep was built with help of magic, and fantasy doesn't mean that everything is influenced by magic. We do have examples of keeps being ruined by time. 

Whatttt?

You don't see any implication magic was used in Building Winterfell?

Reeeeeeeeeeeeeally?

What books are you even reading lol

1 minute ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Noone said that the last hero's sword came from Valyria, dude. Noone. Don't make up things and present it like I said it.

 

Valyrian steel literally means it is from Valyria.

We're done here.

 

[Daeron the Daring]

12 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Whatttt?

You don't see any implication magic was used in Building Winterfell?

Reeeeeeeeeeeeeally?

What books are you even reading lol

We don't know if there's any. Only that Brandon the Builder built the first Winterfell, and it expanded over the centuries.

13 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Valyrian steel literally means it is from Valyria.

We're done here.

So a thing can't be called differently by two different civilisations? I mean, Eastern Europe (or at least my nation) called a simple light bulb Lenin's lamp for years, and my friend's grandfather still calls it that way for some reason. Can't both be called the same, once they are the exact same thing? And aren't the two same, altough somewhere someone else calls it a different way?

[Mourning Star]

29 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

We don't know if there's any. Only that Brandon the Builder built the first Winterfell, and it expanded over the centuries.

So we know Brandon the Builder is said to have built Storms End and there is magic according to Melisandre, we know he's said to have built the wall and there is magic according to Melisandre, we know he's said to have built Winterfell but you are actually doubting magic was involved... that's your theory with literally nothing to support it? ok...

Maybe you don't mean to sound like a troll, but you sound like a troll.

You are suggesting the gargoyles were added to the First Keep later? That it was rebuilt to be round? You have to know this sounds silly...

Quote

So a thing can't be called differently by two different civilisations? I mean, Eastern Europe (or at least my nation) called a simple light bulb Lenin's lamp for years, and my friend's grandfather still calls it that way for some reason. Can't both be called the same, once they are the exact same thing? And aren't the two same, altough somewhere someone else calls it a different way?

This was addressed in a previous post but it seems you simply ignored it. So again, you can theorize that the material called Valyrian steel was produced outside of Valyria, although obviously if you want to be taken seriously you should try to provide some textual support. It still wouldn't be "Valyrian" Steel, and I genuinely don't believe that is the case, but go ahead if that is what you want to argue.

Meanwhile, maybe consider that in the "War for the Dawn" there may have been a sword called "Dawn" used by the last hero. Just a thought...

[Bowen 747]

The world will survive just fine without the humans.  If you were saying  "war won't save the humans" then you would be partly correct.  Only evacuation and migration to the East will save the humans.  Humans are tenacious.  I am not saying nobody will survive in Westeros.  A very few will survive but the cities will be gone.  A fraction of a fraction might survive. The story punished Jon Snow because he started an unneeded war with the Boltons.  Arya's life is not worth the toll.

[CamiloRP]

4 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

So a thing can't be called differently by two different civilisations? I mean, Eastern Europe (or at least my nation) called a simple light bulb Lenin's lamp for years, and my friend's grandfather still calls it that way for some reason. 

And I do too, starting now.