NBA 2021 - Randle Hearts

[Tywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Relic said:

Driver. 

I'm not sure that's the one. It looks too clean.

[Proudfeet]

7 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

I can't remember how good Yao was on defense, but if we're playing by today's game, it's very tempting to take him and Bosh if you thought they could take a step back and hit the three. 

Personally, when I suggested Yao earlier, I thought that he could just score inside with his height. The problem is that he can't chase people around on defense. Its kind of like how Boban is a niche player who doesn't see the floor much but could be effective against the right teams.

7 hours ago, Maithanet said:

Ming attempted very few 3 pointers and was career .200 on them, so I suspect that he was actually pretty bad at them. 

Its a different era. Since he was a good free throw shooter, I suspect he could have expanded his range. Look at Marc's averages. Or Duncan. Its what happens with a small sample size in that era. Its not a Simmons situation where he should be shooting them.

[Tywin et al.]

23 minutes ago, Proudfeet said:

Personally, when I suggested Yao earlier, I thought that he could just score inside with his height. The problem is that he can't chase people around on defense. Its kind of like how Boban is a niche player who doesn't see the floor much but could be effective against the right teams.

Its a different era. Since he was a good free throw shooter, I suspect he could have expanded his range. Look at Marc's averages. Or Duncan. Its what happens with a small sample size in that era. Its not a Simmons situation where he should be shooting them.

It's all kind of tricky. I really have no idea how bigs from the recent past would translate today. For instance, who could guard Shaq, but likewise, could you run him off the court and foul him to the point where he's not as useful as he was 20 years ago. Yao probably would have similar issues, but if that midrange shot could translate despite the numbers Maith cited, Idk, maybe. That's why I'd go with Bosh, who could have become a monster stretch five if his health issues didn't happen.

[DMC]

So I'm liking this:

Also seen reports Gordon formally requested a trade and that he's generating interest from a bunch of contenders.  *crosses fingers*

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

foul him to the point where he's not as useful as he was 20 years ago.

I don't think any team could foul him any more than teams already did.

[Proudfeet]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

It's all kind of tricky. I really have no idea how bigs from the recent past would translate today. For instance, who could guard Shaq, but likewise, could you run him off the court and foul him to the point where he's not as useful as he was 20 years ago. Yao probably would have similar issues, but if that midrange shot could translate despite the numbers Maith cited, Idk, maybe. That's why I'd go with Bosh, who could have become a monster stretch five if his health issues didn't happen.

I think its a rather pointless exercise. Its fun for people who want to discuss it, but at the end of the day, there is no way to prove anything. It is what you make it. 

For reference, Yao is about 3 for 15 in his career, maybe 4 for 20 or something around those lines. That's a Curry stat line in a single night. Or week. Maith's option of Marc Gasol has similar numbers before he made the transition outside and Yao was a slightly better free throw shooter.

Regardless, as I said before, I would have picked him to score inside with his height and that his main problem would be defense. I don't see what you gain from having him move outside when there are plenty of modern bigs who are capable. Towns, Embiid, Jokic, Cousins just to list some names.

[Tywin et al.]

24 minutes ago, DMC said:

So I'm liking this:

Also seen reports Gordon formally requested a trade and that he's generating interest from a bunch of contenders.  *crosses fingers*

I still have no idea what to ever make of what your team is doing. Good trade in theory? Yes. Same shit, different day? Also yes, I think.

24 minutes ago, DMC said:

I don't think any team could foul him any more than teams already did.

It's important to note that while I did start becoming a basketball fan in the mid 90's, I didn't really process the pros until Shaq was fat, so I just always seem him as such. Him at 350 pounds would be an issue today. Young Shaq would probably be a version of Drummond that could still work very well, but I'm not sure he could the same guy who for three to five years was the best offensive big man the game may have ever seen.

5 minutes ago, Proudfeet said:

I think its a rather pointless exercise. Its fun for people who want to discuss it, but at the end of the day, there is no way to prove anything. It is what you make it. 

It is a pointless exercise, but it's still fun to think about when you're bored and don't have anything more interesting at the front of your mind.

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For reference, Yao is about 3 for 15 in his career, maybe 4 for 20 or something around those lines. That's a Curry stat line in a single night. Or week. Maith's option of Marc Gasol has similar numbers before he made the transition outside and Yao was a slightly better free throw shooter.

Wasn't it you who said it was also pointless to say that Steph made more threes in a season than Bird did for his career? I only brought that up in the first place to highlight how insane Bird would be today, not as a knock on him. Yao probably could have been a much better outside shooter if he had trained at it earlier on.

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Regardless, as I said before, I would have picked him to score inside with his height and that his main problem would be defense. I don't see what you gain from having him move outside when there are plenty of modern bigs who are capable. Towns, Embiid, Jokic, Cousins just to list some names.

Towns is probably not the guy you'd want. Cousins before his injuries is interesting, because he was a top 10ish player. But if Embiid and Jokic are both allowed in this team draft, I think you have to take the former if you also took LeBron as your one First All-NBA team player.

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I still have no idea what to ever make of what your team is doing. Good trade in theory? Yes. Same shit, different day? Also yes, I think.

Well, me neither, but obviously I'd like them to commit to rebuilding.  Trading Gordon for draft capital would be a good start (along with having a very good shot at a top 4 pick).  Maybe Fournier could get something back too.  Unfortunately I don't see them trading Vuc.

6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Young Shaq would probably be a version of Drummond that could still work very well, but I'm not sure he could the same guy who for three to five years was the best offensive big man the game may have ever seen.

I don't see any reason Shaq still wouldn't have been dominant in today's game.  I think a lot of you overrate how much the game has changed.  Moreover, some players transcend the general style of play.  Shaq, especially young Shaq, was certainly one of those players.

[Proudfeet]

32 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Wasn't it you who said it was also pointless to say that Steph made more threes in a season than Bird did for his career? I only brought that up in the first place to highlight how insane Bird would be today, not as a knock on him. Yao probably could have been a much better outside shooter if he had trained at it earlier on.

Unlikely. Never seen Bird. Might have made a point depending on context. Anyway, for Yao, its a small sample size. You don't even know if he was actually bad at it then. He just didn't try. 

32 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Towns is probably not the guy you'd want. Cousins before his injuries is interesting, because he was a top 10ish player. But if Embiid and Jokic are both allowed in this team draft, I think you have to take the former if you also took LeBron as your one First All-NBA team player.

Just naming names. My point is that you don't gain anything from moving Yao outside unless you really have no other options from the not being a first team all-NBA pool. I mean, what does he offer that others don't? 

23 minutes ago, DMC said:

I don't see any reason Shaq still wouldn't have been dominant in today's game.  I think a lot of you overrate how much the game has changed.  

Agreed. 3 is more than 2, but reliably making shots is what matters most. There's no point if you can't get shots off or make them. Having more options stretches the defense more than simply spacing it out.

Edit - I'm blind. Yao is 2 of 10 for his career. Its basically nothing. Its an average guard's night.

[Maithanet]

I've no doubt that Shaq would be dominant offensively today.  Hell, the NBA is generally less bulky than it was 20 years ago, so his power moves would be devastating.  The only challenge offensively is whether he would foul out doing those moves.  That would be a challenge, but I'm sure he could adjust.

The problem is defense.  Guys aren't just going to come to Shaq and grind with him under the basket anymore.  What is he going to do when he is playing the Lakers and he has to go out to the perimeter to cover Davis and Gasol?  Can he do it, or are those guys going to be getting uncontested 3s?  If he does come out, will he give up uncontested layups on the pick and roll?  I'm fairly sure that Shaq would get abused on defense.  There's a reason that super powerful big men have faded away in the NBA.  Now, would that make up for the offensive success he'd have?  I don't know.  I'm sure he'd still be very good, but I'm not sure he could win a championship anymore, even if he did have a Top 10 player as a wingman. 

EDIT:  Speaking purely DEFENSIVELY is Shaq really any better than Roy Hibbert?  I'm not sure, neither of them are any good at changing direction in space.  Offensively it's no comparison (obviously). 

[Rhom]

4 hours ago, Maithanet said:

I've no doubt that Shaq would be dominant offensively today.  Hell, the NBA is generally less bulky than it was 20 years ago, so his power moves would be devastating.  The only challenge offensively is whether he would foul out doing those moves.  That would be a challenge, but I'm sure he could adjust.

The problem is defense.  Guys aren't just going to come to Shaq and grind with him under the basket anymore.  What is he going to do when he is playing the Lakers and he has to go out to the perimeter to cover Davis and Gasol?  Can he do it, or are those guys going to be getting uncontested 3s?  If he does come out, will he give up uncontested layups on the pick and roll?  I'm fairly sure that Shaq would get abused on defense.  There's a reason that super powerful big men have faded away in the NBA.  Now, would that make up for the offensive success he'd have?  I don't know.  I'm sure he'd still be very good, but I'm not sure he could win a championship anymore, even if he did have a Top 10 player as a wingman. 

EDIT:  Speaking purely DEFENSIVELY is Shaq really any better than Roy Hibbert?  I'm not sure, neither of them are any good at changing direction in space.  Offensively it's no comparison (obviously). 

Are we talking just Lakers era Shaq?   Or Magic era Shaq?  Because the Shaq that came out of LSU was much smaller than the one we think of.  He continued to bulk up as he got bigger just to handle the fact that every time he went up for a basket he had two 240 lbs defenders hanging off him.  Shaq was an elite athlete coming out of LSU.  Its just later that we think of him as the Great Aristotle.

[DMC]

41 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Are we talking just Lakers era Shaq?   Or Magic era Shaq?  Because the Shaq that came out of LSU was much smaller than the one we think of.

Yeah just google image "Shaq Orlando Magic."  That guy will be just fine guarding stretch 5s.  Really, the Shaq of at least the first 7-8 years of his career would be fine.

[Tywin et al.]

50 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yeah just google image "Shaq Orlando Magic."  That guy will be just fine guarding stretch 5s.  Really, the Shaq of at least the first 7-8 years of his career would be fine.

But that's the area in which he went from super fit to fat, and he won his championships when he was 350 pounds. Fat Shaq would struggle, and it's not like he's evolved with today's thinking of the game.

[DMC]

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

But that's the area in which he went from super fit to fat, and he won his championships when he was 350 pounds. Fat Shaq would struggle, and it's not like he's evolved with today's thinking of the game.

As Rhom said, he beefed up to sustain the constant beatings he got every game - mostly coming from similarly big slow guys.  If the game's "evolved" as much as you think, then he wouldn't have to put on so much heft.

[Tywin et al.]

3 minutes ago, DMC said:

As Rhom said, he beefed up to sustain the constant beatings he got every game - mostly coming from similarly big slow guys.  If the game's "evolved" as much as you think, then he wouldn't have to put on so much heft.

But could he also avoid showing up to practice with a bag of cheeseburgers and not woof them down while his teammates trained? Let's not pretend the weight games were just from him beefing up to compete with other bigs, and who was comparable? Mutombo weighed almost a 100 pounds less than Shaq. Duncan was lighter, and KG weighed about as much as one of his legs. Yao is the only guy I recall Shaq saying that his size and strength surprised him.

[DMC]

18 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

But could he also avoid showing up to practice with a bag of cheeseburgers and not woof them down while his teammates trained?

I'm really not interested in this bullshit "Shaq was lazy" argument just because Kobe used to whine about it.  The guy played 50,000 minutes counting the playoffs - over 10,000 more than Mutombo, btw.

[Tywin et al.]

14 minutes ago, DMC said:

I'm really not interested in this bullshit "Shaq was lazy" argument just because Kobe used to whine about it.  The guy played 50,000 minutes counting the playoffs - over 10,000 more than Mutombo, btw.

Everyone kind of said it at the time, Kobe was just the loudest and wanted to make it known. The minutes comparison is interesting, but Mutombo broke down a lot much quicker, and the argument sidesteps the point that Shaq relied so much on his talent that he didn't take great care of himself and really failed to learn as the game changed. Just look at his recent interaction with Wade and Candance Parker. It's embarrassing how little he knows about how the game for a professional analyst. They both felt bad for him. Shaq, to his credit, was on of the first people who said the Warriors were going to win a championship, but he's also demonstrated that he wouldn't change a thing about how he succeeded. Hard to see how that approach would work today. Strong offensive bigs who play mainly in the paint with okay defense aren't exactly running the league todays. And are any of the good ones fat? Jokic has an odd body type, but his game is night and day from Shaq's.

 

[DMC]

6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Everyone kind of said it at the time, Kobe was just the loudest and wanted to make it known. The minutes comparison is interesting, but Mutombo broke down a lot much quicker, and the argument sidesteps the point that Shaq relied so much on his talent that he didn't take great care of himself and really failed to learn as the game changed. Just look at his recent interaction with Wade and Candance Parker. It's embarrassing how little he knows about how the game for a professional analyst. They both felt bad for him. Shaq, to his credit, was on of the first people who said the Warriors were going to win a championship, but he's also demonstrated that he wouldn't change a thing about how he succeeded.

I don't even like Shaq but man you spew a bunch of nonsensical horseshit about him.  What did he do to you?

[Tywin et al.]

28 minutes ago, DMC said:

I don't even like Shaq but man you spew a bunch of nonsensical horseshit about him.  What did he do to you?

I like Shaq, but I'm not delusional about him. Everyone knows he took poor care of himself. He has very publicly demonstrated that he's invested no time in understanding the modern game despite the fact that's what he's paid to do. Why do you think that specific person could change with the times given there's no evidence that he actually would. Again, young Shaq would be an interesting test case. Shaq once he started getting really big, which is around the time he started to win, in today's game, I'm not so sure about that. I mean, he doesn't even seem to understand why a big has to rotate outside, let alone his rotund self being able to do so if he wanted to.

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Everyone knows he took poor care of himself. He has very publicly demonstrated that he's invested no time in understanding the modern game despite the fact that's what he's paid to do.

I'm sorry, but no, "everyone" doesn't know that.  That's your horseshit deluded opinion.  As for him not understanding "the modern game," I really couldn't give two shits.  Acting like he couldn't figure out how to guard his man because he's out on the perimeter instead of the post is ludicrous.