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Angel Eyes

Robb's not a good brother to Sansa

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3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Useless! 

 

Yes. Useless. Sansa might've flowered, but she's too young to produce a healthy heir. Also, Arya is useless because they don't know where she is. Sansa cannot bring any alliances or men. That's why. 

5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

If Jaime the non scout deployer is one of the best then I cant imagine what the worst is. His uncle I guess, didnt do much worse. 

Oh, yes conveniently forget the battle in the Golden Tooth, forget that he successfully laid siege down, has fought in wars and tourneys, probably fought in the Greyjoy Rebellion....is living, I might say. 

6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

If Jaime the non scout deployer is one of the best then I cant imagine what the worst is. His uncle I guess, didnt do much worse. 

The day Joffrey and his men kill Sansa is the day the Kingslayer loses his head. Don't ignore that please. 

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4 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Yes. Useless. Sansa might've flowered, but she's too young to produce a healthy heir. Also, Arya is useless because they don't know where she is. Sansa cannot bring any alliances or men. That's why. 

What? Of course she can

And Aryas lady of winterfell

14 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:
Oh, yes conveniently forget the battle in the Golden Tooth

Meh, Edmures men were thinned out. Its something I guess. Tywin couldnt do it

17 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

forget that he successfully laid siege down

To Riverrun? Where Robb defeated him?

18 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

has fought in wars and tourneys, probably fought in the Greyjoy Rebellion....is living, I might say. 

Great swordsmen, one of the best Lannister money can buy.

19 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

The day Joffrey and his men kill Sansa is the day the Kingslayer loses his head. Don't ignore that please. 

Thats what Cersei thought. But her and Jaime is like, you know, weird. 

Tyrion feared it, its certainly a possibility. But itd be a pretty wild thing to do. Cold cut murder, its not Young Wolfish

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Tyrion feared it, its certainly a possibility. But itd be a pretty wild thing to do. Cold cut murder, its not Young Wolfish

One word: Boltons. Not any execution. Bolton execution. 

10 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Thats what Cersei thought. But her and Jaime is like, you know, weird. 

 

No ****, Sherlock. 

10 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Thats what Cersei thought. But her and Jaime is like, you know, weird. 

 

He did lay down siege, just how you need to. If it was that lackwit, hairless fool Harys Swyft he would've had only one camp. 

10 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

What? Of course she can

 

For the love of God, she's twelve years old! Or thirteen, I don't care. A medieval lady  back a few hundred years ago gave birth to one son. The pregnancy did so much damage to her growing frame that she was unable to bear anymore heirs. Robb don't got 3 years for her to mature enough. 

10 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

What? Of course she can

 

Yessir, show them exactly where Arya is and then say that. Find her and I'd bend the knee. But I will NOT bend the knee to girl we cannot find.

Edited by Jaenara Belarys

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5 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Why should Robb trade one of the best Lannister battle commanders for two useless girls? They'd be down on my list of priorities as well. 

Because that's what a good brother would do when those his little sisters are in considerable danger at the hands of a family that has a history of killing highly valuable hostages (including his own father).

The question of this thread is not whether Robb is a good war leader, its whether or not he is a good brother.

Being a good war leader and a good brother are not always compatible and on this occasion he chose the former not the latter.

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1 minute ago, Lady_Qohor said:

Because that's what a good brother would do when those his little sisters are in considerable danger at the hands of a family that has a history of killing highly valuable hostages (including his own father).

 

I sure as hell wouldn't. Yes, Robb's not a good brother, but you have to take into account why he never traded for Sansa. Two or three or four cousins is never going to buy back Sansa. 

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3 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

I sure as hell wouldn't. Yes, Robb's not a good brother, but you have to take into account why he never traded for Sansa. Two or three or four cousins is never going to buy back Sansa. 

Phew, glad we finally got it clarified that Robb's not a good brother.

I absolutely understand the reasons Robb never traded Jaime for Sansa and his decision is completely reaslistic and in keeping with the themes and world of the series. I would have been disappointed in GRRM if he had made another decision.

But...that doesn't mean I can't disagree with the decision on a moral level or that I can't judge the character for choosing to place a higher value on waging a bloody war, marrying Jeyne Westerling and killing Lord Karstark over the lives of his own sisters.

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7 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

One word: Boltons. Not any execution. Bolton execution. 

Huh? Roose will kill Jaime because some KG swung too hard? Why would Roose care

8 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

He did lay down siege, just how you need to. If it was that lackwit, hairless fool Harys Swyft he would've had only one camp

The guy who married a chicken? Lol I like like that guy. Look, Jaimes operation in Riverrun was a failure.

10 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

For the love of God, she's twelve years old! Or thirteen, I don't care. A medieval lady  back a few hundred years ago gave birth to one son. The pregnancy did so much damage to her growing frame that she was unable to bear anymore heirs. Robb don't got 3 years for her to mature enough. 

What 3 years? Dude, you hitch and the armies follow. See Marge and Joff. See Ned and Cat/Jon and Lysa. At times of war, dont wait for the trimesters. Theyre not dothraki

13 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Yessir, show them exactly where Arya is and then say that. Find her and I'd bend the knee. But I will NOT bend the knee to girl we cannot find.

Aryas very much alive with a group of supporters and the legal boss. The rest is all muddled.... Which it fucking shouldn't be. King Robb could have sent a small detachment to track her down, instead of leaving his kingdom in muddled turmoil 

10 minutes ago, Lady_Qohor said:

Being a good war leader and a good brother are not always compatible

No. But I believe in regard to Sansa they were the same

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Just now, Lady_Qohor said:

Phew, glad we finally got it clarified that Robb's not a good brother.

 

In this case, being a good battle commander and politician takes precedent over being a good brother. 

 

2 minutes ago, Lady_Qohor said:

But...that doesn't mean I can't disagree with the decision on a moral level or that I can't judge the character for choosing to place a higher value on waging a bloody war, marrying Jeyne Westerling and killing Lord Karstark over the lives of his own sisters.

This is life or death for Robb, not armchair pontificating. 

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2 minutes ago, Lady_Qohor said:

I would have been disappointed in GRRM if he had made another decision.

I am very happy with the current story

2 minutes ago, Lady_Qohor said:

marrying Jeyne Westerling and killing Lord Karstark over the lives of his own sisters.

I got no problems. With Jeyne, ya know, tell your grandkids that story. Its like a cute meet. Fuck Frey. And Karstark

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1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

Huh? Roose will kill Jaime because some KG swung too hard? Why would Roose care

 

He will on the orders of his king. 

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

The guy who married a chicken? Lol I like like that guy. Look, Jaimes operation in Riverrun was a failure.

 

It was, but still. You like Harys Swyft? That's......disturbing. He's ugly. 

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

No. But I believe in regard to Sansa they were the same

LMAO......

1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

No. But I believe in regard to Sansa they were the same

How in the holy hell is he going to find her? Anybody that looks at Arya just sees a "lowborn" boy. 

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10 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

 

This is life or death for Robb, not armchair pontificating. 

Lol that’s gold. That’s all we do around here :D

Robb wasn’t thinking it was life or death when he married Westerling. He was thinking FU I’m King in the North I do what I want. The marriage was useless strategically and was pure selfishness getting everyone killed in the process.

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On 5/5/2021 at 6:14 AM, Angel Eyes said:

Was Elia’s death needed? I already said that Rhaenys and Aegon’s deaths made sense, but Elia's death made no sense from a political point of view.

That's because her death was not political. It was Clegane's decision, not Tywin's, although Tywin should have known it would be necessary. It was to make sure there were no witnesses to Aegon's murder. 

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Golden lion of The Rock said:

Tion Frey is Genna Lannister’s son and Martyn Lannister is Kevan’s son . They are valuable prisoners . 

Hardly. They might be enough for some northern lord, but not enough for Sansa. 

8 hours ago, Solaris said:

Lol that’s gold. That’s all we do around here :D

 

Ah suppose so. :) 

Edited by Jaenara Belarys

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

That's because her death was not political. It was Clegane's decision, not Tywin's, although Tywin should have known it would be necessary. It was to make sure there were no witnesses to Aegon's murder. 

There's zero chance Clegane rapes and murders a Princess of Dorne if Tywin said she's not to be harmed. There's an unspoken understanding that Elia will be killed, though Tywin may have been surprised by the brutality of it. Not giving Clegane the express order to kill her shields Tywin from it, though due to the way his men handled the assassinations of Elia & Aegon and Rhaenys, the Lannisters have their maesters speculate that Aerys was behind it.

I think it's naive to take Tywin at his word that Elia's death was unnecessary. He couldn't leave her to return to Dorne and rally her brothers to seek vengeance. And I don't think Oberyn is entirely wrong in thinking her death may have been, in part, because Tywin saw her marriage to Rhaegar as a slight to his house (due to having planned for Cersei to marry him). He may have considered it unfortunate but if he had considered it unnecessary he would have said as much to Clegane, and she would have been left unharmed. Physically, at least.

Edited by Aemond's Eye

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9 hours ago, Solaris said:

Lol that’s gold. That’s all we do around here :D

Robb wasn’t thinking it was life or death when he married Westerling. He was thinking FU I’m King in the North I do what I want. The marriage was useless strategically and was pure selfishness getting everyone killed in the process.

It was definitely foolish, but it wasn't pure selfishness. It's just as selfish to bed her, possibly impregnate her, and leave her. He's torn between dishonoring her or one of his bannermen. Damned either way due to his sense of morality.

The smart thing for him to have done would have been to marry one of Walder's daughters when he needed to cross The Twins, not send Theon to the Iron Islands and never end up in Jeyne's bed in the first place. But we lose a good chunk of the story if he's not a bit daft in that respect!

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1 minute ago, Aemond's Eye said:

It was definitely foolish, but it wasn't pure selfishness. It's just as selfish to bed her, possibly impregnate her, and leave her. He's torn between dishonoring her or one of his bannermen. Damned either way due to his sense of morality.

 

Agreed. This case is more foolish honor. Which, as Littlefinger says just drags you down. I don't like Littlefinger, but at least that's correct. 

3 minutes ago, Aemond's Eye said:

The smart thing for him to have done would have been to marry one of Walder's daughters when he needed to cross The Twins, not send Theon to the Iron Islands and never end up in Jeyne's bed in the first place. But we lose a good chunk of the story if he's not a bit daft in that respect!

Very true, very true.

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On 5/7/2021 at 12:26 PM, Aemond's Eye said:

There's zero chance Clegane rapes and murders a Princess of Dorne if Tywin said she's not to be harmed. There's an unspoken understanding that Elia will be killed, though Tywin may have been surprised by the brutality of it. Not giving Clegane the express order to kill her shields Tywin from it, though due to the way his men handled the assassinations of Elia & Aegon and Rhaenys, the Lannisters have their maesters speculate that Aerys was behind it.

I think it's naive to take Tywin at his word that Elia's death was unnecessary. He couldn't leave her to return to Dorne and rally her brothers to seek vengeance. And I don't think Oberyn is entirely wrong in thinking her death may have been, in part, because Tywin saw her marriage to Rhaegar as a slight to his house (due to having planned for Cersei to marry him). He may have considered it unfortunate but if he had considered it unnecessary he would have said as much to Clegane, and she would have been left unharmed. Physically, at least.

According to Tywin (for whatever that's worth), he never said Elia was not to be harmed. 

Quote

"I grant you it was done to brutally, Elia need not have been harmed at all, that was sheer folly. By herself she was nothing."

"Then why did the Mountain kill her?"

"Because I did not tell him to spare her. I doubt I mentioned her at all. I had more pressing concerns.  . . ."

But I can't see how Tywin would not think she had to be killed, considering she would be a witness to the murders of her children. So Tywin's is probably being disingenuous here.

I'm sure Oberyn thinks her death was deliberate on Tywin's part, but I'm not so sure. Rhaegar was already dead and Robert was going to be the new king. If anything, Tywin might consider Elia as a possible bride for Robert, but that is highly unlikely. So I'm leaning toward taking Tywin at his word that he never gave much thought to Elia. His singular focus during this whole thing was to get Jaime back alive.

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3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I'm sure Oberyn thinks her death was deliberate on Tywin's part, but I'm not so sure. Rhaegar was already dead and Robert was going to be the new king. If anything, Tywin might consider Elia as a possible bride for Robert, but that is highly unlikely. So I'm leaning toward taking Tywin at his word that he never gave much thought to Elia. His singular focus during this whole thing was to get Jaime back alive.

Elia for Robert? Yeah, right. She can't produce any more heirs, so that's a useless marriage. 

 

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I'm sure Oberyn thinks her death was deliberate on Tywin's part, but I'm not so sure. Rhaegar was already dead and Robert was going to be the new king. If anything, Tywin might consider Elia as a possible bride for Robert, but that is highly unlikely. So I'm leaning toward taking Tywin at his word that he never gave much thought to Elia. His singular focus during this whole thing was to get Jaime back alive.

I'll trust Tywin, have we ever seen him lie? Besides the bull story about Amory Lorch. 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/6/2021 at 2:24 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Aryas very much alive with a group of supporters and the legal boss. The rest is all muddled.... Which it fucking shouldn't be. King Robb could have sent a small detachment to track her down, instead of leaving his kingdom in muddled turmoil 

 

Oh, sweet holy Jesus. HOW IS ROBB SUPPOSED TO FREAKING FIND HER??? Do you honestly think Arya's going to wearing a grey and white dress with a direwolf brooch?? Do you think she'll be that easy to find?? Do you think the northern lords and the riverlords will follow a 9 year old girl?

Edited by Jaenara Belarys

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