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Angel Eyes

Robb's not a good brother to Sansa

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(this could apply to Arya as well, but I'm focusing more on Sansa).

  • He never tries to trade for her, send men to rescue her or ensure her safety in any way while she's a hostage in King's Landing. And Joffrey takes any opportunity he can to have Sansa beaten, which occurs whenever Robb won a battle.
  • Whenever Catelyn interacts with Robb he never shows any sign of worrying for Sansa's safety until she gets married to Tyrion and Robb goes oh shit, I have no heirs because Bran and Rickon are dead (except not really) and tries to cut the Lannisters off at the pass by disowning Sansa and legitimizing Jon.
  • How would Robb have reacted if Joffrey executed Sansa because he felt like it (and this should be on Robb's mind since Joffrey had his father executed despite the possible political fallout), or if Sansa gets struck the wrong way and bleeds to death?

Robb essentially left Sansa to die. Not exactly the greatest brother to have.

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5 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

(this could apply to Arya as well, but I'm focusing more on Sansa).

  • He never tries to trade for her, send men to rescue her or ensure her safety in any way while she's a hostage in King's Landing. And Joffrey takes any opportunity he can to have Sansa beaten, which occurs whenever Robb won a battle.
  • Whenever Catelyn interacts with Robb he never shows any sign of worrying for Sansa's safety until she gets married to Tyrion and Robb goes oh shit, I have no heirs because Bran and Rickon are dead (except not really) and tries to cut the Lannisters off at the pass by disowning Sansa and legitimizing Jon.
  • How would Robb have reacted if Joffrey executed Sansa because he felt like it (and this should be on Robb's mind since Joffrey had his father executed despite the possible political fallout), or if Sansa gets struck the wrong way and bleeds to death?

Robb essentially left Sansa to die. Not exactly the greatest brother to have.

Wether people like it or not this is one of the plot holes in asoiaf. Robb had jaime, a bunch of other hostages, lands he conquered and he never bothered to try to use any othe the things he gained to trade for sansa. Never put a reward forward to anyone that returned sansa to him. He literaly did nothing regarding sansa...

It is like we are suposed to believe that if jaime returned to kl with brienne then he would be able/want to return sansa to the north.

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26 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

(this could apply to Arya as well, but I'm focusing more on Sansa).

  • He never tries to trade for her, send men to rescue her or ensure her safety in any way while she's a hostage in King's Landing. And Joffrey takes any opportunity he can to have Sansa beaten, which occurs whenever Robb won a battle.
  • Whenever Catelyn interacts with Robb he never shows any sign of worrying for Sansa's safety until she gets married to Tyrion and Robb goes oh shit, I have no heirs because Bran and Rickon are dead (except not really) and tries to cut the Lannisters off at the pass by disowning Sansa and legitimizing Jon.
  • How would Robb have reacted if Joffrey executed Sansa because he felt like it (and this should be on Robb's mind since Joffrey had his father executed despite the possible political fallout), or if Sansa gets struck the wrong way and bleeds to death?

Robb essentially left Sansa to die. Not exactly the greatest brother to have.

What, exactly, is Robb supposed to do to help Sansa? He can't just waltz in and ask the Lannisters if they'd please let him have her back. Do you honestly believe Robb knows that Sansa is being beaten?

I said this in the other thread about the Sansa/Jaime trade, but I'll repeat it here: there is no possiblility of such a trade being politically survivable from Robb's position. If Ned hadn't been executed, it would've been an obvious trade, and Ned and Sansa could both be brought back. But once Ned gets axed, there is no chance other than total victory over the Lannisters of Robb ever saving Sansa.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

What, exactly, is Robb supposed to do to help Sansa? He can't just waltz in and ask the Lannisters if they'd please let him have her back. Do you honestly believe Robb knows that Sansa is being beaten?

It should cross Robb’s mind that Joffrey is capable of anything after he makes such a pointlessly cruel and boneheaded move like having someone as important as Ned executed because he feels like it. From what we see Robb wouldn’t mourn if Joffrey had Sansa executed if he felt like it.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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29 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

What, exactly, is Robb supposed to do to help Sansa? He can't just waltz in and ask the Lannisters if they'd please let him have her back. Do you honestly believe Robb knows that Sansa is being beaten?

I said this in the other thread about the Sansa/Jaime trade, but I'll repeat it here: there is no possiblility of such a trade being politically survivable from Robb's position. If Ned hadn't been executed, it would've been an obvious trade, and Ned and Sansa could both be brought back. But once Ned gets axed, there is no chance other than total victory over the Lannisters of Robb ever saving Sansa.

The problem here is that either sansa has little value and therefore there should be something that robb could offer the lannisters for her or she has a lot of value and therefore is worth something like jaime or some castle robb conquered.

You have to chose one of the 2 options. And it should be natural for robb to try and negotiate to have sansa back as he and tywin do for several hostages.

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Posted (edited)

I think Robb was scared to face Jamie in the field again. Jamie killed a lot of Robb's men when he was taken hostage and he was outnumbered and taken by surprise as well.

Edited by sifth

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Posted (edited)
Quote

"What news of our foe?" Tyrion turned his attention back to Stark's terms. The boy does not want too much. Only half the realm, the release of our captives, hostages, his father's sword . . . oh, yes, and his sisters.

and

Quote
"Will you at least consent to trade the Stark girls for Tion and Willem?" Ser Cleos asked plaintively.
Tion Frey was his younger brother, Tyrion recalled. "No," he said gently, "but we'll propose our own exchange of captives. Let me consult with Cersei and the council. We shall send you back to Riverrun with our terms."

 

Robb did engage in trying to get his sisters back. You might argue he wasn't trying hard enough but after what happened to his father, it would be difficult to trust the Lannister's at all. He could never trade Jaime for Sansa for political if not strategic reasons, we have a proven example his men would throw their toys out and desert him. 

Edited by Makk

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9 minutes ago, Makk said:

and

 

Robb did engage in trying to get his sisters back. You might argue he wasn't trying hard enough but after what happened to his father, it would be difficult to trust the Lannister's at all. He could never trade Jaime for Sansa for political if not strategic reasons, we have a proven example his men would throw their toys out and desert him. 

He wasn't trying very hard and perhaps if he did, Catelyn might not have been so desperate as to free Jaime.

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

It should cross Robb’s mind that Joffrey is capable of anything after he makes such a pointlessly cruel and boneheaded move like having someone as important as Ned executed because he feels like it. From what we see Robb wouldn’t mourn if Joffrey had Sansa executed if he felt like it.

Maybe it should. It still doesn't mean that Robb knows Sansa is being beaten by Joffrey's Kingsgaurd. You're expecting a 16 year old who has just been annointed king by his feudal bannermen to display borderline telekenises, when he has plenty of immensely important issues to deal with immediately, like winning the very important war he is waging on his House's behalf. I'm sorry, but the situation does call for a certain amount of triage. Robb couldn't do anything for Sansa from where he sat. She had to take a backseat until Robb scored a big enough victory that he could force a Lannister surrender. He was hoping Stannis would win at the Blackwater, which as far as he knew meant he might just get Sansa back without having to make a politically perilous trade of hostages.

Of course Robb would mourn his sister if she were executed. That's a pretty absurd claim to make without any evidence.

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1 hour ago, divica said:

The problem here is that either sansa has little value and therefore there should be something that robb could offer the lannisters for her or she has a lot of value and therefore is worth something like jaime or some castle robb conquered.

You have to chose one of the 2 options. And it should be natural for robb to try and negotiate to have sansa back as he and tywin do for several hostages.

You've completely missed the point. The point is that if Robb traded Jaime for his sister, his bannermen would be displeased and would lose a whole lot of respect for him. And that is not how you succeed at feudal politics.

Robb could trade Jaime for Ned and Sansa, because the Lannisters really want Jaime. Robb really wants Sansa, but the political situation Robb faces means that no trade is possible if it is for Jaime. Sansa is the most valuable Stark hostage the Lannisters have, but that doesn't make her especially valuable, and trading Jaime for her would seriously undermine Robb's position as King over his bannermen.

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

Maybe it should. It still doesn't mean that Robb knows Sansa is being beaten by Joffrey's Kingsgaurd. You're expecting a 16 year old who has just been annointed king by his feudal bannermen to display borderline telekenises, when he has plenty of immensely important issues to deal with immediately, like winning the very important war he is waging on his House's behalf. I'm sorry, but the situation does call for a certain amount of triage. Robb couldn't do anything for Sansa from where he sat. She had to take a backseat until Robb scored a big enough victory that he could force a Lannister surrender. He was hoping Stannis would win at the Blackwater, which as far as he knew meant he might just get Sansa back without having to make a politically perilous trade of hostages.

Telepathy, not telekinesis. Telekinesis is making objects fly, telepathy is reading minds, controlling minds, communicating with others in an extra sensory way.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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Really Sherlock? Of course Robb isn't a good brother. How is he supposed to be a good brother when Sansa's miles away behind the walls of the Red Keep?

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3 hours ago, sifth said:

I think Robb was scared to face Jamie in the field again. Jamie killed a lot of Robb's men when he was taken hostage and he was outnumbered as well and taken by surprise as well.

Basically this. He wasn't about to bargain Jaime for Sansa and I can't blame him. Sure he could've tried something sneaky like Tyrion did with having Jaime rescued, but Robb would consider that beneath his honor. 

But ya know, Stark haters are gonna hate. No amount of facts or reason will detract from this passion of hate.

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3 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

You've completely missed the point. The point is that if Robb traded Jaime for his sister, his bannermen would be displeased and would lose a whole lot of respect for him. And that is not how you succeed at feudal politics.

Robb could trade Jaime for Ned and Sansa, because the Lannisters really want Jaime. Robb really wants Sansa, but the political situation Robb faces means that no trade is possible if it is for Jaime. Sansa is the most valuable Stark hostage the Lannisters have, but that doesn't make her especially valuable, and trading Jaime for her would seriously undermine Robb's position as King over his bannermen.

But is that a good enough excuse? 

What does it say about Robb that his reputation amongst his bannermen is more important to him than the life of his 12 year old little sister? 

Being a powerful king isn't a good enough reason for leaving your little sister in incredible danger. 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

He wasn't trying very hard and perhaps if he did, Catelyn might not have been so desperate as to free Jaime.

 

Robb may have come around by the time of ASOS to trade Jaime... After losing Bran and Rickon and the north, he should have traded Jaime for the girls and bent the knee, if possible. Either way if he acted early enough Lannister would have made the trade

Edited by Leonardo

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If this exchange were to happen the starks wouldve gotten a girl they can marry to one of their bannermen (potential heir). Whilst the Lannisters wouldve gotten a renown swordsmen and a leader of men. Jamie might be a little dumb, but he is still a capable commander (as seen in feast), and having learnt from his mistakes he could become a dangerous opponent. 

Trading Sansa for jamie would be political suicide for robb. A trade between Benjen and Jamie would be allot more realistic than a trade between Jamie and Sansa.

Robb bedding and marrying Jeyne is a good example of what happens when you put your personal matters over your kingdom. A Jamie and Sansa trade would have similar consequences, and support within his kingdom would degrade, and all it would probably take is one lose on the field for his new born kingdom to implode. 

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12 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Telepathy, not telekinesis. Telekinesis is making objects fly, telepathy is reading minds, controlling minds, communicating with others in an extra sensory way.

Noted. If Robb had telekineses, I guess he could've solved a lot of problems. Thanks for the correction.

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9 hours ago, Lady_Qohor said:

But is that a good enough excuse? 

What does it say about Robb that his reputation amongst his bannermen is more important to him than the life of his 12 year old little sister? 

Being a powerful king isn't a good enough reason for leaving your little sister in incredible danger. 

It is if you enjoy living. Robb had three priorities.

1. Defeat Tywin Lannister and force a surrender.

2. Ensure the continued survival of his House, now as a King chosen by bannermen who could unmake him if they wanted.

3. Rescue his sisters, keep his brothers protected, and maintain the family unit.

Robb was pretty good at beating Tywin, it turns out. Good enough for the Northmen to make him a King. The problem is that being King means you have to keep the people who made you king happy and on your side, or they might think about deposing you, and deposed Kings don't usually live very long. The other issue is that Robb has to think of House Stark the institution, not just as a family he loves and cares for. Note that, despite all his efforts, Robb was murdered by one of his bannermen who wanted to get rid of House Stark. It turns out having a good reputation with your bannermen matters quite a lot, because all it takes is one betrayal to kill you off.

And this bears repeating; Robb can't actually do anything for Sansa from Riverrun. All he can do realistically is defeat the Lannisters in the feild. Sansa is completely outside of his power to protect.

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