Swan Song part 16/16. Exotic fruits on family trees

[Willam Stark]

11 hours ago, Megorova said:

Larra being a skinchanger has nothing to do with her being a Rogare.

Of course it has something to do with her being a Rogare, or at least Lysandro's daughter since he must be a carrier of the skinchanging set of genes as well as her mother, according to your theory (I agree with you on that part).

11 hours ago, Megorova said:

the Bastard of Harrenhal (the founder of House Whent and Petyr Baelish' great-great-grandfather)

Petyr's great-grandfather was a Bravoosi sellsword, and that Bastard didn't have particular reasons to exile himself at Braavos and sire a son there who would then go back to Westeros and found House Baelish. This comes from nowhere.

11 hours ago, Megorova said:

And the Bastard of Harrenhal, whose parents were Aegon IV and Aegon's daughter - Jeyne Lothston, was a bat-skinchanger, and he used his ability to set up Danelle Lothston, and took from her Harrenhal.

Another attempt to include Targaryen roots in major Houses when it's absolutely not needed. You know there were skinchangers in Westeros thousands years ago, before the Targaryens, before Larra Rogare and after them. Everything doesn't turn around the Targaryen.

11 hours ago, Megorova said:

Also in my opinion out of all of Lysandro Rogare's children, only Larra was Johanna Swann's daughter. The other 8 of Lysandro's legitimate children and his 16 bastards were born by other women.

Lysandro Rogare's legitimate children (Larra included) were born from the same mother, the other women are his bastards' mothers, according to their genealogy tree.

11 hours ago, Megorova said:

And Larra with her mother caused the downfall of House Rogare

Lysaro is responsible for it, not them and guess what, he had daughters.

Whether you like it or not, Serenei is not Larra and Larra is not Shiera's mother. You can speculate as much as you want about Johanna Swann being the wife of Lysandro Rogare, but not on Larra changing her identity to bang her own son and give birth to a skinchanger child. You can yell, you can cry it won't change that fact nor your denial.

I gave you a credible alternative because I find this part of your theory interesting, but if you continue to stay in denial then I'll just tell you it's wrong, every time you bring this up.

11 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I'm not going anywhere - I'm just wondering. :-)

Sorry dude, I misspelled it.

[Megorova]

17 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Then let me phrase it differently: The probability that one reader would figure it out, though, is almost zero.

My IQ is 180+ (my lowest ever result was 183).

https://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/iqtable.aspx

So me VS 63,492,547 other people - I'm smarter.

18 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Besides that, at least in my opinion GRRM hasn't given any reason to assume hundreds of secret lineages are the foundation of further plotlines.

Why hundreds? I wrote only like 7 or so. Look: ->

1. Who were Azor Ahai's five important children?

the founders of House Targaryen, Hightower, Corbray, Dayne, and Swann.

Is it too hard to memorise only five people?

Ned Stark had five children, and Aegon V also had five children. Can't you remember their names? I'm sure that you can.

So it's not too much to ask from the readers to comprehend five more names/titles, isn't it?

2. With whom married Rhaena Targaryen's five important daughters?

with a Dayne, Dondarrion, Arryn, Tully, and Tyrell.

3. With whom married Cregan Stark's four important daughters?

with a Royce, Karstark, Blackwood, and Flint.

This -> (Cregan Stark - Mariah Stark - Melissa Blackwood - Mya Rivers - Melantha and Betha Blackwoods) - is a part of 3.

Can't you (and the other readers) comprehend/memorise the Targaryens between Aegon the Unworthy and Dany? That's not too hard, isn't it?

1 Aegon IV - 2 Daeron II - 3 Maekar I - 4 Aegon V - 5 Jaehaerys II - 6 Aerys II - 7 Dany.

And if the readers can comprehend that, then they will be also able to comprehend this:

4.

1 Aegon IV - 2 Jeyne Lothston - 3 the Bastard of Harrenhal/the founder of House Whent - 4 the parents of the third generation of Whents - 5 Minisa, Shella, Walter, Oswell, Sarya - 6 Catelyn Tully - 7 Robb, Sansa, etc.

Or this, it's also a part of 4 ->

1 Aegon IV - 2 the Bastard of Harrenhal - 3 the sellsword from Braavos - 4 a hedge knight - 5 first Lord Baelish - 6 Petyr Baelish - 7 Robert Arryn (Petyr's son).

And this:

5.

1 Aegon IV - 2 Viserys Plumm - 3 a daughter - 4 a Dothraki son - 5 a daughter - 6 Brown Ben Plumm.

And this is also a part of 5. ->

1 Aegon IV - 2 Viserys Plumm - 3 a daughter - 4 a Dothraki children - 5 Khal Bharbo - 6 Khal Drogo - 7 Rhaego.

6.

1 Aegon IV - 2 Daemon I Blackfyre - 3 Duncan the Tall - 4 Jenny of Oldstones - 5 Melisandre, Serra, Varys.

This is also a part of 6. ->

1 Aegon IV - 2 Daemon I Blackfyre - 3 Calla Blackfyre - 4 Olenna Tyrell - 5 Mace Tyrell - 6 Margaery, Loras, etc.

and this is too part of 6. ->

1 Aegon IV - 2 Daemon I Blackfyre - 3 Aenys Blackfyre - 4 a daughter - 5 Barristan Selmy - 6 fAegon.

and this is too part of 6. ->

1 Aegon IV - 2 Daemon I Blackfyre - 3 Duncan the Tall - 4 a daughter - 5 daughters - 6 Merys Cafferen, wife of Lord Clegane - 7 Brienne Tarth, the Mountain and the Hound.

and this is too part of 6. ->

1 Aegon IV - 2 Daemon I Blackfyre - 3 Duncan the Tall - 4 a son - 5 a son - 6 Hodor.

7.

1 Aegon IV - 2 Bellenora, Narha and Balerion Otheryses - 3 the Third Black Pearl of Braavos, her siblings and first cousins - 4 the Fourth Black Pearl and her relatives - 5 the Fifth Black Pearl and her relatives, amongst them the father of Brown Ben Plumm - 6 the Sixth Black Pearl, Brown Ben Plumm, the current Sealord of Braavos - 7 the current Black Pearl (the Seventh).

 

If all that will be placed on the same family tree, then I assure you it looks more coherent than the family tree of the Targaryens. Have you SEEN a Targaryen family tree? Here it is ->

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Targaryen#Targaryen_Family_Tree

GRRM made it. There's like 20 levels. And in the family tree that encompasses all of my theories, there are only 10 levels. The Highest one beging with Cregan Stark, and on the same upper level is Rhaenyra and Johanna Swann with Lysandro Rogare. All of Cregan's descendants intermaried, so mine version of their combined family tree (Starks + Targaryens) becomes wider only after the level with Aegon the Unworthy's numerous bastards. Because all those new possible characters, that I added to GRRM's version of ASOIAF's dynasties, are all Aegon's descendants from his bastards - like Petyr Baelish, the current Sealord of Braavos, Varys, Melisandre, etc.

So it's not as complex as you think. On the contrary - it's twice simpler than GRRM's version of the already existing Targaryen family tree. So it's like GRRM has revealed to the readers 2/3 or 66% of the information about ASOIAF's important lineages. And he did it thru 5 books of the main series, TWOIAF and the first volume of F&B. Mind that the first volume ended exactly on Aegon IV, so GRRM left all that other information for the further reveals, in the second volume of F&B, and in TWOW and ADOS. Three more books to add into them what he has already started building in the previous books. It's like all those hidden elements are bricks of the foundation of the building that he is constructing, so he will take those bricks and will add/reveal them thru the remaining books. It's simpler than you think.

[HoodedCrow]

George lived near NYC. He lived in Chicago. I would ask got his opinion about race and the States.

Megarova, the tests max out:) For you, I have central heterochromia! 

[The Wondering Wolf]

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

My IQ is 180+ (my lowest ever result was 183).

https://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/iqtable.aspx

So me VS 63,492,547 other people - I'm smarter.

I don't question your IQ. But I question your comprehension of GRRM's writing style. You seem to see a lot of patterns nobody else does. Patterns the author himself wouldn't see. Because you don't need an IQ of 180 to write a compelling fantasy story and you don't need it either to get a good grasp of what's going on.

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

So it's not as complex as you think.

Sure. And because it's not complex you only needed 16 threads to present all of this. ;-) Have you ever counted the speculative claims you made? Oppo and Penny were given dragon eggs by the Sealord. Ambrose Butterwell was a dragonseed. Johanna Swann was responsible for Sharako Lohar's death. Johanna Swann was responsible for the downfall of the Rogares. Johanna Swann was the mother of Larra Rogare. Johanna Swann was wife to Lysandro Rogare. The Lyseni nobles that died after the fall of the Rogares were killed by Johanna Swann. Johanna Swann was a skin-changer. Johanna Swann made it back to Westeros. Johanna Swann married a cousin and thus became an ancestor of the Swanns. Johanna Swann robbed the Rogare Bank. Johanna Swann used the gold to hire the Faceless Men to kill the Rogare brothers. And this comes only from parts 1 and 2. But none of it is based on anything else than patterns only you are able to see. I don't want to come across as rude, but your extremely high IQ may be the reason you can't regocnise how far off the road you are.

[Megorova]

20 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I don't think that would change much. Again, what would the Blackwoods gain from that? Marriages are used for politics

Lord Hightower allowed his daughter to marry with Jorah Mormont, who was basically a nobody and way older than his bride. Egg married with Betha Blackwood out of love (though I think that they have met specifically because they were bloodrelated. So she, as Bloodraven's niece, was present at some sort of family gathering of the Targaryens, and that's how she met Egg. Or maybe they met thru the Starks, because Betha's older sister - Melantha, married with a Stark who was a friend of Egg and Dunk). Princess Elaena's last marriage also was not political, she married out of love, with a member of an insignificant House. And Gerold Lannister married with Rohanne Webber, whose social standing was way below his own.

So not all marriages in ASOIAF-TWOIAF were politically based, or were facilitated with an intent to get some sort of benefits out of them.

21 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I guess there is a reason why GRRM included them.

Which is exactly my point. In my opinion Mya is there because thru her the Starks added Targaryen blood into their gene-pool. If Melantha Blackwood was Mya River's daughter, then thru her Ned and Lyanna are 1/32 dragonseeds, because Melantha was their great-grandmother.

9 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

Of course it has something to do with her being a Rogare, or at least Lysandro's daughter since he must be a carrier of the skinchanging set of genes as well as her mother, according to your theory (I agree with you on that part).

I think that this rule - Recessive Carrier 1 + Recessive Carrier 2 = Active skinchanger, is correct in case with transmission of genes between two males, and from a father to a daughter, but works differently during transmission of genes between mothers and daughters.

I think that in this case (transmission of skinchanging genes) GRRM had applied the same combination of 1) real world rules of genetics and 2) additional rule created by himself, as he did in case with the transmission of genes between Targaryens.

What I mean is - what was discussed on the previous page - a parent with dark hair (like Myriah Martell) and a parent with light hair (like Daeron II) can have both - children with dark hair (like Baelor Breakspear), and children with light hair (like Maekar), in case if the dark-haired parent has a light-haired ancestor, from whom he/she inherited a light-colored hair alleles, though because he/she has a dark hair allele in addition to that blond hair allele, he/she simultaneously is dark-haired and a recessive carrier of a blond hair alleles. So with coloration of hair and eyes GRRM is using the same rules that exist in the real world. Though he isn't applying to his characters all the rules of genetics that exist in the real world. In a sense that despite the frequent inbreeding the Targaryens are not as genetically damaged as they should be, considering how often they mixed over and over the same genes between their family members. What @Jaenara Belarys said about the Hapsburgs and their chins. So in regard to the passage of genes GRRM is using one real rule and one made up by him (that the Targaryens because of their dragon-blood have superior genetics, and are immune to diseases and don't suffer from inbreeding, despite frequently practicing incest).

So back to the skinchanging genes - I think that in this case GRRM is also using two rules - one from the real world (like red hair is passed from parents to children), and one additional rule made up by him - the mother can pass her skinchanging genes to her daughter directly, so it isn't necessary for the father to also be a carrier of skinchanging genes. Do you get what I mean? -> Johanna Swann, who was a skinchanger, directly passed her genes to her daughter - Larra Rogare. And Larra's father wasn't a carrier of a skinchanging genes. Then Larra, same as her mother, directly passed her skinchanging genes to her daughter - Shiera Seastar, but didn't passed them to her other daughter - Naerys. So Shiera is a cat-skinchanger, same as were Johanna and Larra, and Shiera's half-sister half-aunt - Naerys, was not a skinchanger, and wasn't even a recessive carrier. So I made there one small mistake in one of my previous posts here, this - 

22 hours ago, Megorova said:

Rhaegar thru Naerys and Elia thru Daenerys

Rhaegar got his skinchanging genes from Aerys - Jaehaerys - Egg - Maekar - Daeron - Aemon the Dragonknight, not from Naerys. And Elia did got hers from Daenerys, thru Aegon IV. So out of Larra Rogare's four children - both of her sons were recessive carriers, one daughter was an active skinchanger, and one daughter had zero skinchanging genes.

And why I think that for the passage of the skinchanging genes GRRM is using this second made up by him rule - that a daughter could get skinchanging genes from her mother alone, and it isn't necessary for her father to also be a carrier, is because of this ->

TWOIAF, The Reach - "ROSE OF RED LAKE, a skinchanger, able to transform into a crane at will—a power some say still manifests from time to time in the women of House Crane, her descendants."

9 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

Petyr's great-grandfather was a Bravoosi sellsword, and that Bastard didn't have particular reasons to exile himself at Braavos and sire a son there who would then go back to Westeros and found House Baelish. This comes from nowhere.

This comes from this - >

TWOIAF, Aegon IV - "His last act before his death, all accounts agree, was to set out his will. And in it, he left the bitterest poison the realm ever knew: he legitimized all of his natural children, from the most baseborn to the Great Bastards—the sons and daughters born to him by women of noble birth. Scores of his natural children had never been acknowledged; Aegon’s dying declaration meant naught to them. For his acknowledged bastards, however, it meant a great deal."

"Lady Falena “made him a man” in 149, when Aegon was fourteen. ... Children by Falena Stokeworth: None acknowledged."

"Jeyne was brought to court by her mother in 178, when she was fourteen. Aegon made Lord Lothston his new Hand, and it was said (but never proved) that he enjoyed mother and daughter together in the same bed. He soon gave Jeyne a pox he’d caught from the whores he’d been seeing after Lady Bethany’s execution, and the Lothstons were then all sent from court again.

Children by Jeyne Lothston: None."

"His affair with the Black Pearl continued for ten years, though it was said that Bellegere had a husband in every port and that Aegon was but one of many. She gave birth to three children during the decade, two girls and a boy of doubtful paternity.

Children by the Black Pearl: Bellenora, Narha, Balerion."

 

My interpretation of all that info, is that Jeyne Lothston was one of Aegon's bastards. But he never acknowledged her. Furthermore, when he had sex with Jeyne, who was his own daughter, and she got pregnant, he lied to everyone that he supposedly infected her with pox, and under this pretext sent her back to Harrenhal, where she then secretly gave birth to a child that was then acknowledged by Jeyne's "official" father - Lucas Lothston. Lucas said that the boy is his bastard, and didn't revealed who his mother was. He did basically the same thing as Ned did for Jon - Ned said that he is Jon's father, and just hid from everyone the identity of Jon's mother, that it was Lyanna. So the Bastard of Harrenhal was amongst those of Aegon IV's children that after his death remained unacknowledged, same as Jeyne, and same as the children of Bellegere Otherys. That's why the Bastard went to Braavos (not exiled himself there, just temporarily went there), to make a common cause with the Otheryses. He hooked up there with one of his nieces, got her pregnant, and when some time later he realised that the Otheryses won't provide him with their assistance in getting Harrenhal, he went back to the 7K, and left his child/children at Braavos. And his son, born by an Otherys-girl, is that sellswords from Braavos, who was Petyr Baelish' great-grandfather.

I wrote about it here:

Swan Song part 7/16. The Bastard of Harrenhal

and here

Swan Song part 15/16. The False Prophet

He craved to own Harrenhal for the same (or similar) reason why Jon wanted to have Winterfell. Not only the Bastard, but also his mother - Jeyne, both were the King's children. But he didn't acknowledged either of them. And, as it was written in TWOIAF - "For his acknowledged bastards, however, it meant a great deal."

King Daeron II, after his father's death, gave a tract of land to his half-brother - Daemon Blackfyre, to build there a castle. He gave to his other half-brother - Ambrose Butterwell, a post of the King's Hand. Shiera Seastar was given a permanent place at Targaryen court. Other of Daeron's half-siblings also got many other favours and benefits from being acknowledged as Aegon's children. 

So the Bastard of Harrenhal thought that if he also was acknowledged as one of Aegon's children, and if his mother was acknowledged, then they would have gotten Harrenhal, by right.

Yes, originally Harrenhal was given to Lucas Lothston by Viserys II and Aegon III to remove Lucas' wife - Falena Stokeworth, the first of Aegon's lovers, out of court. Though later, when Aegon became the King, he could have taken Harrenhal from the Lothstons, and gave it instead to some other House. Because Harrenhal was not a hereditary property of the Lothstons. So one King gave it to them, and the other King had a right to take it from them, without breaking any laws.

Though Aegon left Harrenhal to Lucas, even after he became the King, because Lucas was Aegon's pander - he was providing sex-partners for Aegon, including Lucas' own wife - Falena, and his supposed daughter - Jeyne. When Lucas brought Jeyne to court and into Aegon's bed, Aegon even appointed Lucas as the King's Hand. -> "Jeyne was brought to court by her mother in 178, when she was fourteen. Aegon made Lord Lothston his new Hand".

So the Bastard thought that he and his mother have earned the right to have Harrenhal. He wanted the Lothstons to give it to him. Or for King Daeron to give it to him. And over the years he tried various methods to either become acknowledged as one of King Aegon's children, or to be given Harrenhal on some other basis.

For example, during the First Blackfyre Rebellion at first he sided with the Blackfyres, because when he asked King Daeron to give him Harrenhal, he was refused. So he thought that if his other half-brother - Daemon Blackfyre, will become a new King, then he maybe will give him Harrenhal. Though in the process of the Rebellion, he for some reason changed his mind, and betrayed the Blackfyres. <- this was mentioned in the books. It appears that as a reward for the Bastard betraying the Blackfyres, his half-brother King Daeron II legitimized him as Lucas Lothston's son - Manfred Lothston, who previously was known as the Bastard of Harrenhal, and Manfred of-the-black-hood (because in my opinion he was always wearing a black hood to conceal his hair. Officially he was Lucas Lothston's bastard, and the Lothstons were red-heads, same as Conningtons. So it would have caused people to have suspicions, if supposedly a Lothston-bastard, who was born shortly after Jeyne Lothston was kicked out of King Aegon's bed, had silver-gold hair like Targaryens).

In my opinion, he failed to get Harrenhal after the First Blackfyre Rebellion, despite being legitimized by the King as a Lothston, because there were other Lothstons, who owned it for many years. And the King refused to either take Harrenhal from those Lothstons to give it to Manfred, or to legitimize Manfred as the King Aegon's son, because there was no evidences of his paternity. So probably Manfred went to Braavos because he was hoping that Bellegere Otherys could have attested that Jeyne Lothston was Aegon's daughter. According to the World Book, it was known that even after Falena Stokeworth left Targaryen court for the first time, her relationship with Aegon was continuing - "However, over the next two years, Aegon paid frequent visits to Harrenhal." Even when Aegon had an official mistress, he kept having sex on the side with the other women. For example, when he was in a relationship with Bellegere, in 161-171, he also had sex with Lord Butterwell's three daughters, and all three got pregnant, and one of them gave birth to Ambrose Butterwell (born in 161 or 162), for whom Aegon gave a dragon egg. Aegon hooked up with Bethany Bracken, while he was still in a relationship with Melissa Blackwood. And he had sex in the same bed with Jeyne and Falena. In 178 AC Jeyne was 14 years old, so she was born in 164 or 163. And if she was indeed one of Aegon's children, then it means that he continued his relationship with Falena not only during those two years that were known to general public, but also all the time since 149 (his first sex) and until 163-164 when he and Falene conceived Jeyne. Falena was Aegon's first woman, so she had a special place in his life, thus he continued relationship with her, even when he was in a relationship with his other mistresses, thru all that time that he was with Merry Meg, Cassella Vaith, and thru the first several years of his decade-long relationship with Bellegere Otherys. In my opinion, Aegon spending a night at the Butterwell castle, when he had sex with the three daughters of Lord Butterwell, is an evidence/hint that Aegon was in that area (Butterwell castle is located on the shore of the God's Eye, same as Harrenhal, where Falena lived), because he was at that time visiting Falena at Harrenhal, and afterwards also decided to visit the other castles nearby, to check whether there are new pretty girls there, and that's how he met Lord Butterwell's daughters.  

And because Aegon's relationship with Bellegere Otherys began in 161, could be that Bellegere was with Aegon at the time when he was in 161 or 162 visiting Falena at Harrenhal, and later on that same trip at the Butterwell's castle impregnated those three girls, and also when he was visiting Falena in 163-164, when he and Falena conceived Jeyne. Considering that in 161-162 at the Butterwell's castle Aegon had sex with the three sisters, and in 178 "he enjoyed mother and daughter together in the same bed", I think that that time in 178 was not the first time when Aegon had a threesome in which one of the participants was Falena Stokeworth. I think that years prior that time, he also was in a threesome - him, Falena and Bellegere Otherys.

So Bellegere could have provided Manfred/the Bastard of Harrenhal with evidences or witness testament, that Aegon continued his relationship with Falena Stokeworth even outside of those two years that were known by general public. And this information could have been enough to prove to the Targaryens that Jeyne Lothston was Aegon's daughter. If Bellegere would have attested that Lucas Lothston never ever had sex with Falena, because despite officially being Lucas' wife, she remained being Aegon's woman, and no other man ever touched her. So even though Bellegere wasn't with Aegon at the time of Jeyne's conception in 163-164, she still could have provided the Bastard with sufficient information to prove Jeyne's paternity.   

So that's why the Bastard went to Braavos, and then it just didn't worked out, same as his stunt during the First Blackfyre Rebellion. Thus next what he did is he used his skinchanging abilities and framed Danelle Lothston as a witch and a murderer, and that way finally got Harrenhal, and he is Catelyn Tully's and Littlefinger's great-great-grandfather.

Don't you see how all this are parts of the Bigger Picture?

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

My IQ is 180+ (my lowest ever result was 183).

https://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/iqtable.aspx

So me VS 63,492,547 other people - I'm smarter

Pretty much the dumbest thing I've read today. This is a results based business, brainwave.

[Willam Stark]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

I think that this rule - Recessive Carrier 1 + Recessive Carrier 2 = Active skinchanger, is correct in case with transmission of genes between two males, and from a father to a daughter, but works differently during transmission of genes between mothers and daughters.

You are changing rules to push a crackpot theory which has been debunked by Ran, who participated in the writing of the same book that you use to make your crackpot theories. I cannot take you seriously anymore.

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Johanna Swann, who was a skinchanger

This comes from nowhere.

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Then Larra, same as her mother, directly passed her skinchanging genes to her daughter - Shiera Seastar

Larra is not Serenei nor Shiera's mother, period.

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

That's why the Bastard went to Braavos

This comes from nowhere.

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Don't you see how all this are parts of the Bigger Picture?

All I can see here is a girl who has created her own fanfiction because she is obsessed by the dragonriders (like all Dany's fans) but also Johanna Swann, Larra Rogare and Shiera Seastar that almost no one cares about. The girl also thinks that she is smarter than most of people based on a website rather than a proper IQ test realised by a psychologist. At best this girl is average and should know that writing a fanfiction doesn't require a great intelligence and almost everyone can do the same.

Pretty lame.

[Jaenara Belarys]

6 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

(like all Dany's fans)

Ahem. Being an authority on myself, I do beg to differ. I do think that dragons will play a large part in the War for the Dawn (but any intelligent person would know that), but I'm not insane. 

[Megorova]

15 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

You are changing rules to push a crackpot theory

I'm not "changing rules", as I said - I think that maybe for a daughter to inherite from her mother a skinchanging genes, it could be not necessary for the father too to be a skinchanger or a recessive carrier of the skinchanging genes, because of what was said in TWOIAF-book about female-Cranes. It was said there that this trait resurfaces from time to time and only in the females of House Crane. Which means that in their case only females are carriers of those specific genes, and that not all Crane-females receive those genes from their mothers. That's why it was said - from time to time. So who the father is is irrelevant, the genes could be passed from the mother alone. And a daughter could be either an active skinchanger, or a recessive carrier, or not to have any of those genes at all (despite her mother being an active skinchanger).

 

Additionally - I'm not making this up, it's a fact - for example a woman has some sort of disease, and amongst her children some of them also have this same disease, and some don't. The disease is caused by some specific genes. And only the mother has those genes, and the father doesn't. Nevertheless, despite the father not having any of those ill-genes, some of his children are ill, and they have the same disease as their mother does. There is such a thing.

Or another example - Baelor Breakspear had dark hair, same as his mother - Myriah Martell. And he had dark hair, even though from his father he didn't received any of a dark hair alleles. Because Daeron didn't had any of the dark hair alleles, he was blond, and thus had only blond hair alleles. Myriah was dark-haired and Daeron wasn't, and their son was dark-haired. So there's that.

It's the same kind of thing.

One of the parents to be a carrier of certain genes, is enough for the child to also have those genes.

So Johanna Swann was a cat-skinchanger and she directly passed this abbility to her daughter - Larra Rogare, who then also directly passed this abbility to one of her daughters - Shiera Seastar, but didn't passed it to her other daughter  - Naerys.

(Though I think that the rule about the passage of the skinchanging genes in a similar model as it is for the passage of the red-hair alleles, is also still correct. Both of those models are correct. I'll explain this part later.)

And wait with criticising my stubborn idea about Larra and Serenei being the same person, despite Ran disproving it. I do have something to say about this, so wait. I'll write later why I don't think that any other of those options (for example that Serenei is some other Rogare, and not necessary Larra) are not viable in my opinion. I'll write it later, not now. I see at least four inconsistencies in the option that Serenei is not Larra - 1. Craster, 2. Rhaenyra, 3. recognition, 4. safety of her children <- that's not for you, that's for me, not to forget what I thought on this topic. I'm smart, but I don't have a perfect memory.

16 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

17 hours ago, Megorova said:

Johanna Swann, who was a skinchanger

This comes from nowhere.

This comes from here:

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/159013-swan-song-part-116-the-missing-pieces-ptsd/&do=findComment&comment=8684332

That post is loooooong, and the first half of it is about why I think that Johanna Swann was Larra Rogare's mother, but the second half of that post is about why I think that Johanna was a cat-skinchanger. So I'm posting here a quote of the second part, and if you are interested, you can go to that link to read the first part there.

On 5/22/2021 at 9:51 PM, Megorova said:

~~~

Previously unexplained elements from “SS-2” and “SS-3”: Johanna, Larra/Serenei and Shiera Seastar - the three cat-women. Concerning Larra being a cat-skinchanger everything is pretty clear - the clues were written in Fire & Blood in plain text. Now I’ll explain about the other two.

Quote

Matteno Orthys, a fervent worshipper of the goddess Pantera, was mauled and partly devoured by his prized shadowcat when its cage was unaccountably left open one night. - F&B.

The cage was left open, by someone. Though the cat hadn’t attacked that someone, nor did she tried to get out of the cage until Matteno was left alone, unattended by guards or servants. Only Matteno got attacked, no one else. The cat killed and also partially ate him, which means that at the time of the attack and for some time after it, Matteno was alone, there was no one there who could have protected him or stopped the cat from eating him. There are three possible options of how this could have happened: 1. Whoever opened that cage was a cat-skinchanger, that’s why the cat hadn’t attacked him/her; 2. Whoever opened that cage was sent there by a person who skinchanged into that shadow-cat. The cat was under this person’s control and that’s why when his/her servant opened the cage, the cat hadn’t attacked, instead it waited for the right moment when everyone was asleep and Matteno was alone; 3. No one opened the cage. The cat did it herself. Because inside that cat there was a human mind that controlled it. For an experienced skinchanger it shouldn’t be hard to use a cat’s paw to open the cage.

Haggon the wildling skinchanger noted that “Cats were vain and cruel, always ready to turn on you”. It’s hard to control cats because they are independent, proud, and capricious. To determine the right time for the attack, whoever slipped into that cat’s skin, had to either frequently go in and out, to check whether the coast is clear, or to stay inside that cat’s mind for an extended period of time, for many hours until will come a right time for the attack. To accomplish either of those things, the skinchanger that possessed that cat had to be nearby in Lys, not across the Narrow Sea. Because to establish a strong hours-long connection, or to be able to enter and exit the cat’s mind many times in a span of one day, to create a strong link like that, in this case the distance does matter. For that level of control, the controller needs to be not too far from the controlled, especially if the controlled is a cat.

At the time when Matteno was killed, Larra Rogare was already at the 7K, thus it couldn’t have been done by her. Though, considering that the skinchanging ability could be hereditary, it’s a logical conclusion that Larra’s mother also was a cat-skinchanger. Thus, she’s the one who skinchanged into Matteno’s shadowcat and killed him. Possibly she did this because when she was a courtesan, Matteno was one of her clients, and he did something because of which she had a grudge against him.

None of this was written in F&B, though all this is logical and thus you can read it “between the lines”.

Concerning Shiera being a cat-skinchanger - Mance Rayder served in the Night’s Watch at the Shadow Tower. He was attacked by an unusually behaving shadowcat. Usually, when big cats attack their prey, they go for the throat. Shiera Seastar is a shadowbinder Quaithe, her mother was a cat-skinchanger and a shadowbinder. So the Shadow Tower is a clue, same as Mance’s attacker - the shadowcat.

Quote

“I drove it off, but not before it shredded my cloak to ribbons. Do you see? Here, here, and here?”

… "My brothers feared I might die before they got me back to Maester Mullin at the Shadow Tower, so they carried me to a wildling village where we knew an old wisewoman did some healing. She was dead, as it happened, but her daughter saw to me. Cleaned my wounds, sewed me up, and fed me porridge and potions until I was strong enough to ride again. And she sewed up the rents in my cloak as well, with some scarlet silk from Asshai that her grandmother had pulled from the wreck of a cog washed up on the Frozen Shore. It was the greatest treasure she had, and her gift to me.” - ASOS, Jon I.

Where the shadowcat ripped Mance’s cloak, the wildling healer afterwards sewed it in three places with ribbons of scarlet silk from Asshai. Three patches of magical silk - three eyes to watch over Mance. The shadowbinder Quaithe is from Asshai and she is the Three-Eyed Crow. The silk belonged to the healer’s grandmother. Thus the healer was Shiera Seastar and the grandmother was Johanna Swann, the first out of the three cat-women in Shiera’s magically gifted family.

~~~

 

And concerning Petyr Baelish's ancestor -

16 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

 

17 hours ago, Megorova said:

That's why the Bastard went to Braavos

This comes from nowhere.

I did explained what was his possible reasons to go to Braavos. You think those reasons are not sufficient?

He wanted to be acknowledged, he wanted to get Harrenhal, and thus he used various means and tried to get assistance from various people, including his Braavosi half-siblings - Bellenora, Narha and Balerion - Aegon's other unacknowledged bastards.

16 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

The girl also thinks that she is smarter than most of people based on a website rather than a proper IQ test realised by a psychologist.

That site, the link to which I gave in one of my previous posts, is not a site on which you take an IQ-test, it's a site with IQ Percentile and rarity chart - how many % of the world's population have this or that level of IQ.

On 11/1/2021 at 12:17 PM, Willam Stark said:

Lysandro Rogare's legitimate children (Larra included) were born from the same mother, the other women are his bastards' mothers, according to their genealogy tree.

You mean this one? ->

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Rogare#Family

That tree is not from F&B, it is just based on the textual information from F&B. In the book itself there was no family tree of the Rogares (there was only one family tree - the Targaryen one, and Larra was listed there as Viserys' wife, but none of her other family members are on that tree, except her husband and two sons that were already born by the end of F&B), there was only this info:

Quote

"Lysandro the Magnificent. Some went so far as to suggest that the First Magister had been removed by his own sons (he had sired six trueborn sons, three daughters, and sixteen bastards). ...

Even less loved than Larra of Lys were the three brothers who had come with her to King’s Landing. Moredo commanded his sister’s guards, whilst Lotho set about establishing a branch of the Rogare Bank atop Visenya’s Hill. Roggerio, the youngest, opened an opulent Lysene pillow house called the Mermaid...

Though Lysandro’s children could not inherit his offices, his palace went to his daughter Lysara, his ships to his son Drako, his pillow house to his son Fredo, his library to his daughter Marra. All of his offspring partook of the wealth represented by the Rogare Bank. Even his bastards received shares, albeit fewer than those alloted to his trueborn sons and daughters. Effective control of the bank, however, was vested in Lysandro’s eldest son, Lysaro…

By that time Lysaro himself was gone. Faced with ruin, he fled Lys in the dead of night with three bed slaves, six servants, and a hundred of his Unsullied, abandoning his wife, his daughters, and his palace."

So based on this textual info was build that family tree, posted in ASOIAF-Wikia. And on that tree is written only one wife for Lysandro Rogare, because it was just assumed, by whoever made that chart in Wikia, that all of Lysandro's legitimate children were born by the same woman, and that Lysandro had only one wife.

In F&B it was written that he had six sons - Moredo, Lotho, Roggerio, Drako, Fredo, Lysaro; three daughters - Larra, Marra, Lysara; and 16 bastards. Though, note that there was zero information about who was/were the mother/mothers of Lysandro's 9 legitimate children. Zero information. So we can't cross out a very viable possibility that Lysandro had more than one wife, and thus not all of his children were full siblings to each other. 

And thus there is a possibility that Johanna Swann, who was ONE of Lysandro's numerous wives (or concubines, whose children were originally born out of wedlock, though later were legitimized, similar to the children of Samantha Tarly - "A new High Septon eventually reversed the position of his predecessor, allowing Lyonel to marry Sam, and by the same occasion legitimized their six chidren.^[8][1]"), was Larra Rogare's mother, and ONLY her mother, and didn't had any other children with Lysandro. So the other 8 of Lysandro's legitimate children and his 16 bastards to Larra were her half-siblings. And thus she shared with them only 25% of the same genes (unlike the full-siblings that have 50% of common genes). Same amount (25%) is usually also shared between first cousins, and between aunts/uncles and their nieces/nephews, grandparents and their grandchildren.

On 11/1/2021 at 12:17 PM, Willam Stark said:

Whether you like it or not, Serenei is not Larra and Larra is not Shiera's mother. You can speculate as much as you want about Johanna Swann being the wife of Lysandro Rogare, but not on Larra changing her identity to bang her own son and give birth to a skinchanger child. You can yell, you can cry it won't change that fact nor your denial.

I gave you a credible alternative because I find this part of your theory interesting, but if you continue to stay in denial then I'll just tell you it's wrong, every time you bring this up.

Yes, yes. As I said - later I will list my arguments why none other Rogare, besides Larra, will do as Serenei.

P.S. Unless Serenei was Larra Rogare's identical twin-sister - Marra Rogare.

[HoodedCrow]

Have you looked into Mensa? They will test you if you want, but a formal test would be better. 
Its tricky. There is incomplete dominance, codominance, x linked, recessive and epigenetics, just for starters. As you pointed out, hair line is inherited. ( also color, texture, patterns) 

I don’t think Martin was thinking that he would have to be scientifically reviewed when he wrote a fantasy novel. You might choose to do it, though!

 

[Willam Stark]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

I'm not "changing rules", as I said - I think that maybe for a daughter to inherite from her mother a skinchanging genes, it could be not necessary for the father too to be a skinchanger or a recessive carrier of the skinchanging genes, because of what was said in TWOIAF-book about female-Cranes. It was said there that this trait resurfaces from time to time and only in the females of House Crane.

The term "only" doesn't appear in your quote, you add it on purpose. Besides that doesn't prove anything, recessive genes can skip generations without being expressed. Most of the skinchangers we know are males, I could have swallowed it if there were none but it's not the case, you are just looking for an exit door to push your crackpot theory.

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Larra Rogare, who then also directly passed this abbility to one of her daughters - Shiera Seastar

Larra is not Serenei nor Shiera's mother, period.

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

This comes from here:

No, I wasn't talking about your fanfiction, but the books. You have no textual basis to back up your claim that Johanna Swann is Lysandro's wife, Larra's mother and a cat-skinchanger. The fact that she became "the eventual ruler of Lys in all but name", have nothing to do with the Rogares, you just made this up because you want to give her more importance to the story than she really has. This comes from nowhere (in the books).

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

I did explained what was his possible reasons to go to Braavos. You think those reasons are not sufficient?

He wanted to be acknowledged, he wanted to get Harrenhal, and thus he used various means and tried to get assistance from various people, including his Braavosi half-siblings - Bellenora, Narha and Balerion - Aegon's other unacknowledged bastards.

You've created this background, it's not even implied in D&E.

Again, this comes from nowhere.

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

That tree is not from F&B, it is just based on the textual information from F&B.

Ok, no problem.

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

So we can't cross out a very viable possibility that Lysandro had more than one wife, and thus not all of his children were full siblings to each other. 

You can't rule out the opposite either, let's call it a tie.

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

And thus there is a possibility that Johanna Swann, who was ONE of Lysandro's numerous wives

Prove it.

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

That site, the link to which I gave in one of my previous posts, is not a site on which you take an IQ-test, it's a site with IQ Percentile and rarity chart - how many % of the world's population have this or that level of IQ.

Yes it is: https://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/Default.aspx

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Yes, yes. As I said - later I will list my arguments why none other Rogare, besides Larra, will do as Serenei.

Summarizing your fanfiction into a list won't make it more true or believable.

But if you have time to waste, be my guest.

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

P.S. Unless Serenei was Larra Rogare's identical twin-sister - Marra Rogare.

It would make more sense than your fanfiction.

[HoodedCrow]

No males are color blind?  

[Jaenara Belarys]

3 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

No males are color blind?  

What's color blind have to do with this, though?

Quote

He wanted to be acknowledged, he wanted to get Harrenhal, and thus he used various means and tried to get assistance from various people, including his Braavosi half-siblings - Bellenora, Narha and Balerion - Aegon's other unacknowledged bastards.

You have created this motive out of thin air. Mr. Martin only did, what a few lines about how he was defeated at a tourney? We don't even have his name!

This is the entirety of the Wiki page: 

The Bastard of Harrenhal was a bastard of House Lothston during the reign of King Daeron II Targaryen.

History

He was defeated by Ser Arlan of Pennytree in the melee at a tourney at King's Landing in 193 AC.^[1] His given name has not been published, although "Rivers" is the traditional surname for bastards of noble origin in the riverlands.

 

An impressive lot of potential evidence we have here . Wouldn't you agree, @Willam Stark? 

[TGR]

On 10/28/2021 at 4:10 PM, Megorova said:

2. connection between Corbrays and Valyrians - a) the first Lord Corbray owned a Valyrian Steel blade, when other people at Westeros haven't even heard yet about Valyria or Valyrian Steel, b) Snakewood;

A humble question: it is mentioned that the first Lord Corbray owned a Valyrian Steel Sword?

According to the wiki "at some point the Corbrays acquired a Valyrian steel sword which they named Lady Forlorn in honor of the ancient sword, as Lord Qarl Corbray used the new blade to kill Ser Davos Darklyn of the Kingsguard during the Battle Beneath the Gods Eye in 43 AC". I can not remember if any actual text mentions a Lady Forlorn as a Valyrian steel from the start. And that makes sense, since a bunch of valyrian steel poured in Westeros, specially after Dragonstone was settled.

You can argue that the first Lady Forlorn was Valyrian steel. For sure. But Ice is also a name that predates the Valyrian Steel. None are mentioned as Valyrian steel, only the latter swords.

Hightowers and Daynes are locks to me, the founders were probably proto-valyrians. The others, I am still not sure.

 

[Jaenara Belarys]

21 minutes ago, TGR said:

A humble question: it is mentioned that the first Lord Corbray owned a Valyrian Steel Sword?

 

No. It's named as a legacy from the first Lady Forlorn that was used by some Lords Corbray, but it wasn't till later on that they got the current Lady Forlorn. Here: https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Lady_Forlorn

[StarksInTheNorth]

20 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

No, I wasn't talking about your fanfiction, but the books. You have no textual basis to back up your claim that Johanna Swann is Lysandro's wife, Larra's mother and a cat-skinchanger. The fact that she became "the eventual ruler of Lys in all but name", have nothing to do with the Rogares, you just made this up because you want to give her more importance to the story than she really has. This comes from nowhere (in the books).

I would like to restate that as off the walls as this entire series is generally, the Johanna Swann as Lady Rogare theory is highly speculative but by far the most likely of anything else said by Megorova. I’m highly doubtful regarding the skin changer bit, but I do think it’s somewhat likely. Not hugely, considering Larra wasn’t taught to speak Westerosi, but still maybe possible. 

[Megorova]

15 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

No.

You are wrong. Read below ->

15 hours ago, TGR said:

it is mentioned that the first Lord Corbray owned a Valyrian Steel Sword?

Yes,

sort of -> it is mentioned that Qyle Corbray owned a Valyrian Steel blade - Lady Forlorn, and based on the timing of those events, this Qyle was the first Lord Corbray's son or grandson. The explanation and the quotes from TWOIAF are below.

This is a quote from TWOIAF, The Vale. I copied not the whole text, but the parts of it that are relevant for your question. It's long, but if you'll read it, you'll see a sequence of events how the first Corbray's Valyrian Steel blade was used in the war by Robar Royce who took it from... well,  read the quote:

Quote

THE VALE OF ARRYN—a long, wide, fertile valley entirely ringed by the great grey-green peaks of the mighty Mountains of the Moon—is as rich as it is beautiful. Perhaps that was why the first Andal invaders chose to land there when they crossed the narrow sea beneath the banners of their gods.

...

Isolated from the rest of Westeros by its towering mountains, the Vale proved the perfect ground for the Andals to carve out their first kingdoms in this new land.

...

Moreover, the Vale and its surrounding peaks were divided into a score of petty kingdoms when the first Andals began wading ashore ....

Riven by ancient enmities, the kings of the First Men did not unite against the invaders when first they appeared but rather made pacts and alliances with them, seeking to use the newcomers in their wars against one another. (A familiar folly that was to be repeated time and time again as the Andals spread out across Westeros).

Dywen Shell and Jon Brightstone, both of whom claimed the title King of the Fingers, went so far as to pay Andal warlords to cross the sea, each thinking to use their swords against the other. Instead the warlords turned upon their hosts. Within a year Brightstone had been taken, tortured, and beheaded, and Shell roasted alive inside his wooden longhall. An Andal knight named Corwyn Corbray took the daughter of the former for his bride and the wife of the latter for his bedwarmer, and claimed the Fingers for his own (though Corbray, unlike many of his fellows, never named himself a king, preferring the more modest style of Lord of the Five Fingers).

That was the first Lord Corbay, who founded their House in Westeros - Corwyn Corbray. He was one of the first Andals, which have cut out a piece of the Vale for themselves.

Quote

Not all the lords and kings of the First Men were so foolish as to invite their conquerors into their halls and homes. Many chose to fight instead. Chief amongst these was the aforementioned Bronze King, Yorwyck VI of Runestone, who led the Royces to several notable victories over the Andals, at one point smashing seven longships that had dared to land upon his shores and decorating the walls of Runestone with the heads of their captains and crews. His heirs carried on the fight after him, for the wars between the First Men and the Andals lasted for generations.

The last of the Bronze Kings was Yorwyck’s grandson, Robar II, who inherited Runestone from his sire less than a fortnight before his sixteenth nameday yet proved to be a warrior of such ferocity and cunning and charm that he almost succeeded in stemming the Andal tide.

By that time the Andals controlled three-quarters of the Vale and had begun to fight amongst themselves, as had the First Men before them. Robar Royce saw opportunity in their disunity.

When the first Andals came to the Vale, amongst them was Corwyn Corbray, and amongst those First Men, that sided with the Andals, were Dywen Shell and Jon Brightstone; and amongst those First Men, that fought against the first Andals and opposed their invasion, was Yorwyck Royce. By the time when Yorwyck's grandson - Robar, became the Bronze King, the Andals already seized 3/4 of the Vale's territory. From the time of the arrival to the Vale of the first Andals, the wars between them and the First Men had lasted for ~three generations - a generation of Yorwyck, a generation of his son, and a generation of his grandson. So at that time, when Robar Royce lived, House Corbray was ruled by Corwyn Corbray's grandson (or son) - Qyle Corbray (or in case if their ancestral sword was wielded not necessary by their Lord, but by the most capable of their House's swordsmen, like it was with the Daynes and their sword - Dawn, then could be that Qyle wasn't A Lord Corbray, instead he could have been just a chosen wielder of the Lady Forlorn). Back to the book:

Quote

Finally united as one people under a single ruler, the First Men went on to win a series of smashing victories against their divided, quarrelsome conquerors. Wisely, King Robar did not attempt to attack all Andals everywhere to drive them from his shores. Instead he warred upon one enemy at a time, often making common cause with one Andal chief to bring down another.

The King of the Fingers was first to fall. Legend tells us that King Robar slew Qyle Corbray himself, after striking Corbray’s famous blade, Lady Forlorn, from his hand.

Do you see? - Robar was a grandson of the guy who was amongst those First Men who opposed the Andals, and Corwyn Corbray was amonsgt those first Andals that invaded the Vale, so it's a logical conclusion that Qyle was Corwyn's grandson (or son), and that Qyle's sword - Lady Forlorn, was famous because it belonged to his grandfather (or father) - the founder of their House (or rather it's one of the reasons why this sword was famous, and the other reason why it was famous, is because it was a Valyrian Steel blade <- and this is written in TWOIAF, keep reading, this part is next).

Quote

Robar had won his last victory, for the remaining Andal lords and petty kings had finally come to realize their peril. And now it was the Andals who put aside their differences to make common cause and unite beneath the banners of a single warlord. The man they chose to lead them was neither king nor prince, nor even lord, but a knight named Ser Artys Arryn. A young man, of an age with King Robar, he was esteemed amongst his peers as the finest warrior of his day, a champion with sword and lance and morningstar, and a cunning and resourceful leader of men, beloved by all who fought beside him. Though of pure Andal blood, Ser Artys had been born in the Vale in the shadow of the Giant’s Lance, where falcons soared amongst the mountain’s jagged peaks. On his shield he bore the moon-and-falcon, whilst a pair of falcon’s wings decorated his silver warhelm. The Falcon Knight, men called him, then as now.

...

Seven times the Andals charged, the singers say; six times the First Men threw them back. But the seventh attack, led by a fearsome giant of a man named Torgold Tollett, broke through. Torgold the Grim, this man was called, but even his name was a jape, for it is written that he went into battle laughing, naked above the waist, with a bloody seven-pointed star carved across his chest and an axe in each hand.

...

Then chaos ensued, as the Andals came pouring through the gap in the ranks of the First Men. Victory seemed within their grasp, but Robar Royce was not so easily defeated. Where another man might have fallen back to regroup, or fled the field, the High King commanded a counterattack. He led the charge himself, smashing through the confusion with his champions by his side. In his hand was Lady Forlorn, that dread blade he had plucked from the dead hands of the King of the Fingers. Slaying men right and left, the king fought his way to Torgold the Grim. As Robar slashed at his head, Tollett grabbed for his blade, still laughing … but Lady Forlorn sliced through his hands and buried herself in Torgold’s skull.

The giant died choking on his last laugh, the singers say. Whereupon the High King spied the Falcon Knight across the field and spurred toward him; should their leader fall, the Andals would lose heart and break, he hoped.

They came together as the battle raged around them, the king in bronze armor, the hero in silvered steel. Though the Falcon Knight’s armor flashed brilliantly in the morning sun, his sword was no Lady Forlorn. The duel was done almost before it began, as the Valyrian steel

sheared through the winged helm and laid the Andal low. For an instant, as his foe toppled from the saddle, Robar Royce must surely have thought his battle won.

Then he heard the trumpets, ringing through the dawn air, the sound coming from behind him. And turning in his saddle, the High King beheld in dismay five hundred fresh Andal knights pouring down the slopes of the Giant’s Lance to take his own host in the rear. Leading the attack was a champion in silvered steel, with a moon-and-falcon on his shield and wings upon his warhelm. Ser Artys Arryn had clad one of his knights retainer in his spare suit of armor, leaving him in camp whilst he himself took his best horsemen up and around a goat track that he remembered from his childhood, so they might reappear behind the First Men and descend on them from above.

The rest was a rout. Attacked from front and rear, the last great host of the First Men of the Vale was cut to pieces. Thirty lords had come to fight for Robar Royce that day. Not a one survived. And though the singers say the High King slew foes by the score, in the end he, too, was slain. Some say Ser Artys killed him, whilst others name Lord Ruthermont, or Luceon Templeton, the Knight of Ninestars. The Corbrays of Heart’s Home have always insisted that it was Ser Jaime Corbray who dealt the mortal blow, and for proof they point to Lady Forlorn, reclaimed for House Corbray after the battle.

So the sequence of events went like this - Corwyn Corbray owned a Valyrian Steel sword named Lady Forlorn, and when he settled at the Vale, he founded there House Corbray of the Heart's Home. Corwyn's grandson (or maybe it was his son) - Qyle Corbray, was killed by a young Robar Royce, who then took Lady Forlorn. The sword was used by Robar in his battle against the Andals. With that sword he killed Torgold Tollett, and a guy who was wearing Artys Arryn's spare armor. Then it appears that Robar was killed by Jaime Corbray, who then took back Lady Forlorn, and that's how the sword was returned to the Corbrays. And this Jaime, he was either Qyle's brother or his son or a cousin, so he was either a son, or a grandson, or a nephew, or a grandnephew of Corwyn Corbray - the founder of their House, who was the first owner of Lady Forlorn.

It wasn't written in the book directly that Lady Forlorn, a Valyrain Steel blade, used to be Corwyn Corbray's sword. It was just said there that the sword was taken by Robar Royce from Qyle Corbray, whom he killed -> "Legend tells us that King Robar slew Qyle Corbray himself, after striking Corbray’s famous blade, Lady Forlorn, from his hand."

Though, considering that there was no information there about the Corbrays of the Vale somehow acquiring a Valyrian Steel blade, when they were living at the Vale, the only logical conclusion, is that they already had that sword when the first of the Corbrays, who was the founder of their House - Corwyn Corbray, came to the Vale. So it's a logical conclusion that Corwyn brought Lady Forlorn to the Vale, when he migrated there from Essos, so he was the first Corbray who owned that sword, and then passed it to his successor, and then the sword was wielded by Qyle - a member from the second or the third generation of their House.

15 hours ago, TGR said:

According to the wiki "at some point the Corbrays acquired a Valyrian steel sword which they named Lady Forlorn in honor of the ancient sword, as Lord Qarl Corbray used the new blade to kill Ser Davos Darklyn of the Kingsguard during the Battle Beneath the Gods Eye in 43 AC". I can not remember if any actual text mentions a Lady Forlorn as a Valyrian steel from the start. 

The Wiki isn't always correct.

Because it is written based on how, whoever added that information on those pages, interpreted what they have read in TWOIAF and the other sources. And people make mistakes, and not always are sufficiently attentive, when they work with a vast amounts of the raw data, such as the TWOIAF's texts are. So they missed that part in TWOIAF, where it was said that the Lady Forlorn, that was taken from  Qyle Corbray by Robar Royce, eventually was taken back from Robar by Jaime Corbray.

So the Lady Forlorn that was owned by Qyle Corbray, and the Lady Forlorn with which Qarl Corbray killed Davos Darklyn, and the Lady Forlorn with which Gwayne Corbray fought agains Daemon Blackfyre's Valyrian Steel sword - Blackfyre, was all THE SAME SWORD, the one that the founder of House Corbray brought with him from Essos (which is the origin of the Valyrian Steel, because Valyria is a part of Essos).

15 hours ago, TGR said:

I can not remember if any actual text mentions a Lady Forlorn as a Valyrian steel from the start. And that makes sense, since a bunch of valyrian steel poured in Westeros, specially after Dragonstone was settled.

You can argue that the first Lady Forlorn was Valyrian steel.

No need to argue against the facts.

It's there in TWOIAF, - "Though the Falcon Knight’s armor flashed brilliantly in the morning sun, his sword was no Lady Forlorn. The duel was done almost before it began, as the Valyrian steel

sheared through the winged helm and laid the Andal low. " - during the Andal Conquest of the Vale, which had occurred thousands of years before the Targaryens relocated from Valyria to Dragonstone.

The first of the Andals came to the Vale, they conquered most part of it in the span of 3-4 generations, then later the other Andals came to conquer the other regions of Westeros, gradually, one by one, and the fighting lasted for thousands of years.

(The Wikia isn't always right, nevertheless it is a good source of a historical information, because it's using the data from the canon sources - ASOIAF-books, GRRM's SSMs, TWOIAF, D&E and F&B.)

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Coming_of_the_Andals

"King Yorwyck VI Royce and his heirs led much of the resistance of the First Men to the Andals. King Robar II Royce gained the support of the Redforts, Hunters, Belmores, Coldwaters, and Upcliffs. These united First Men were able to successively defeat several Andal warlords, including the Corbrays, Graftons, and the Hammer of the Hills. However, Robar's army was routed in the Battle of the Seven Stars, and control of the Vale was claimed by the Andals of House Arryn.^[13]Those First Men who did not submit to the Arryns fled into the Mountains of the Moon and became the Vale mountain clans.^[5] The legend of Alyssa Arryn and Alyssa's Tears is said to be between six thousand^[6] and two thousand years old.^[9]"

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Alyssa_Arryn

"When Alyssa lived exactly is unknown. Some believe her to have lived six thousand years ago,^[1] whilst the book True History states four thousand years ago. Maester Denestan, in his Questions, states two thousand years.^[2] According to legend, Alyssa saw her husband, her brothers and her children killed in front of her, but she did not shed a tear. "

Considering that Artys Arryn was a representative of no later than the third or the fourth generation of those first wave Andal-Arryns that settled at the Vale, and Alyssa Arryn, a later member of Artys' House lived 6.000-4.000-2.000 years ago, it's obvious that the Battle of the Seven Stars, in which the Corbrays took their Valyrain Steel sword back from Robar Royce, was fought at least 2.000 years ago - long before the Targaryens came to Dragonstone and Westeros.

Thus Lady Forlorn's arrival to Westeros predates the arival there of the Targaryens.

15 hours ago, TGR said:

But Ice is also a name that predates the Valyrian Steel.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Ice

"The name "Ice" is a LEGACY from the Age of Heroes and predates the current sword.

About four hundred years before King Robert I Baratheon's reign, the Valyrian steel greatsword was spell-forged in Valyria and acquired by House Stark, who NAMED IT AFTER THAT LEGACY.^[2]"

The ancient Starks owned a sword named Ice. That sword was not a Valyrian Steel blade. Then, ~400 years ago, they acquired a Valyrain Steel sword from the Valyrians, and this new sword they also named Ice. And the latest Ice, the one that was owned by Ned Stark, was that Valyrain Steel sword Ice, that the Starks acquired 400 years ago.

There was TWO Ices (the first one was not a Valyrian Steel blade, but the second one was), but only ONE Lady Forlorn, and that Lady Forlorn sword was a Valyrain Steel blade, and using this sword were fought battles that have occurred at the Vale 6.000-4.000 or 2.000 years ago <- BEFORE the "Dragonstone era".

The Targaryens relocated to Dragonstone 414 years ago (now it's 300 AC, and Aenar the Exile migrated with his family to Dragonstone 12 years prior the Doom, which had occurred in 102 BC).

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Doom_of_Valyria

So 414 years ago the Targaryens came to Dragonstone, and ~14 years later Lord Stark had bought from the Valyrians his new Ice - a Valyrain Steel blade.

15 hours ago, TGR said:

You can argue that the first Lady Forlorn was Valyrian steel. For sure. But Ice is also a name that predates the Valyrian Steel. None are mentioned as Valyrian steel, only the latter swords.

The correct statement would be - only the latter Ice was mentioned as a Valyrian Steel blade. While there was no a latter Lady Forlorn, because there was always only one Lady Forlorn, and that sword always was a Valyrain Steel blade, despite the fact that it was brought to Westeros by the first Corbray, thousands of years before the comming there of the Targaryens. Which means that the founder of House Corbray, who somehow miraculously owned a Valyrian Steel blade, at the time when Valyria was only beginning its rising, possibly had some sort of connection to those early Valyrians. Which is exactly what my theory, this one - Exotic fruits on family trees, is about. Welcome aboard.

P.S. So I said that - yes, it was sort of mentioned in TWOIAF that Corwyn Corbray owned a Valyrian Steel blade - Lady Forlorn. The sword itself wasn't mentioned until the second or third generation of Corbrays - based on the timing of 1. Yorwyck Royce, 2. his children, 3. his grandson - Robar Royce - killed Qyle Corbray, who was mentioned in the book as Lady Forlorn's owner. So either Corwyn - the founder of House Corbray, was the first wielder of Lady Forlorn, or whether it was Qyle, or Qyle's predecessor, the exact details are irrelevant for my theory that the early Corbrays were related to the early Valyrians, because Qyle lived 6.000-4.000-2.000 years ago, long before the Targaryens became a thing at Westeros.

Whether the first owner of that Valyrain Steel blade was Corwyn or Qyle, my point still stands - the Corbrays owning that sword thousands years ago, is a clue that connects their House to the early Valyrians.

[StarksInTheNorth]

17 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

The Bastard of Harrenhal was a bastard of House Lothston during the reign of King Daeron II Targaryen.

History

He was defeated by Ser Arlan of Pennytree in the melee at a tourney at King's Landing in 193 AC.^[1] His given name has not been published, although "Rivers" is the traditional surname for bastards of noble origin in the riverlands.

 

An impressive lot of potential evidence we have here . Wouldn't you agree, @Willam Stark? 

We can actually speculate some more based off this! Since he was in a tournament in 193, and not as a mystery knight, we can presume he was a knight. That would mean the bastard rivers was at least 16. 

Do math, and we get a date of birth in 177.

Jeyne Lothston was brought to court in 178 at age 14.

There’s zero evidence she was with Aegon before then. 

[Jaenara Belarys]

6 minutes ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

We can actually speculate some more based off this! Since he was in a tournament in 193, and not as a mystery knight, we can presume he was a knight. That would mean the bastard rivers was at least 16. 

 

I did not think about that. Thank you. 

7 minutes ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

There’s zero evidence she was with Aegon before then. 

I'm sure that Megorova will find a way to justify her theory still. 

[Megorova]

59 minutes ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

Since he was in a tournament in 193, and not as a mystery knight, we can presume he was a knight. That would mean the bastard rivers was at least 16. 

Not necessary. 16 I mean.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jaime_Lannister#Early_life

"At the age of thirteen, while still a squire, Jaime won his first tourney melee.^[16][45]"

Jaime was knighted when he was 15, though there were others who were knighted when they were even youger than that - Daemon I Blackfyre at 14.

In my opinion Princess Daenerys Targaryen and Daemon I Blackfyre got together during that tournament, at which Dunk's future guardian - Ser Arlan, defeated the Bastard of Harrenhal and Lord Stokeworth.

That was in 193. So in my opinion that tournament was held to celebrate King Daeron II's 40th birthday. He was born on the last day of 153, so the tournament was held thru the last days of 193 and the first days of 194. So that's when Dunk was conceived, and thus he was born approximately in October of 194.

Thus in 209, when Dunk was intending to participate in the tournament at Ashford, he was 14 years old, or just recently turned 15, in case if that tournament had occurred past first half of October in 209. I mean - no one asked his age when he entered the lists.

So there's that - the age is not a determining factor for someone to participate in a tournament. And if the Bastard wasn't knighted earlier than Daemon I Blackfyre (aged 14 at that time), then he wouldn't have earned being mentioned as someone special, who was knighted while he was still not even 16 years old.

Jeyne Lothston was brought to Aegon's court in 178, when she was 14. Though we don't know when exactly in a year did that happened - in the beginning, or in the middle, or near the end. So, for example, if she came to court in the very end of 178, and became pregnant not even a year later, but in the late 179, then she would have gave birth to her child in second half of 180. Though if she was brought to court in the very begginning of 178, and was impregnated soon after, then could be that she gave birth to her child still in 178. Thus the possible range for the Bastard's birth is 178-180 AC.

And thus in the late 193 AC he could have been 15-13.

He could have been very young, and thus inexperienced, and in my opinion his age is the reason why he was defeated by Ser Arlan, who actually was a so so knight - he never ever won in any tournaments.

Also look - Jaime won his first victory when he was 13 years old - that first link. And that was a victory in a tourney melee. And at that time Jaime wasn't a knight yet. Though he did participated. So could be that Ser Arlan also defeated both the Bastard of Harrenhal and Lord Stokeworth, while they were all fighting in a melee, NOT jousting. The knights, like Arlan was, also were allowed to participate in a melees, because it's not an activity strictly for the knights - everyone were allowed to participate in those, both - the knights and the unknighted.

18 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

An impressive lot of potential evidence we have here 

You're missing some important detail from that info - the Bastard of Harrenhal AND Lord Stokeworth.

If the Bastard was Jeyne Lothston's son, then Falena Stokeworth was his maternal grandmother. So that Lord Stokeworth was the Bastard's relative on his grandmother's side.

@StarkInTheNorth Same thing concerning Ser Arlan's victory over Lord Stokeworth - if that guy was Lady Falena's brother, or even if he was her nephew, he was an old guy. So Ser Arlan - a so so fighter, managed to defeat in a single battle two opponents, because one of them was a boy and the other was a geezer.

51 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

I'm sure that Megorova will find a way to justify her theory still. 

I wrote my speculations concerning the Bastard's possible age, in that thread - Swan Song 7. And there is no inconsistencies, then and now.

Look here:

18 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

He was defeated by Ser Arlan of Pennytree 

in the MELEE

at a tourney at King's Landing in 193 AC.^[1] 

"At the age of thirteen, while still a squire, Jaime won his first tourney melee.^[16][45]"

See?

<- I just love this smiley, it's sooo cute.