Heresy 236 and the Musgrave Ritual

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, Tucu said:

We know that we was active as a recruiter for the last 30 years:

but probably not the only recruiter.

Mance and Benjen never met apparently:

 

That's a good catch.  I guess that ends my theory that Mance was the one giving the speech about joining the Night's Watch at the Harrenhal tourney.  

[Frey family reunion]

1 minute ago, Lunabricot said:

Hello heretics! Long time lurker but I tought I give my 2 cents concerning Benjen. I've always found his attitude toward Jon weird. At the feast for Robert at Winterfell, he first seem friendly, asking questions about Ghost, telling Jon the Watch could use men like him... And out of nowhere, Benjen tells him to come back when he will fathered a few bastards (with Jon's reaction we know). 

I don't know about you guys, but as a teen, forbid/tell me not to do something, and I ended up doing it! 

And later, we learn that Benjen talked with Luwin about Jon joining the Watch. So it's possible that Benjen influenced Jon to go to the Wall and beyond.

When Jon arrives, Benjen is seldom present and finally is going missing. He seems up to something.

He certainly seems a bit distracted/preoccupied/irritable when they travelled to Castle Black.  It's hard to tell if he's just uncomfortable with the presence of Tyrion, if he has misgivings about Jon joining the Night's Watch, or if it's something else entirely.

[LynnS]

20 minutes ago, Lunabricot said:

Hello heretics! Long time lurker but I tought I give my 2 cents concerning Benjen. I've always found his attitude toward Jon weird. At the feast for Robert at Winterfell, he first seem friendly, asking questions about Ghost, telling Jon the Watch could use men like him... And out of nowhere, Benjen tells him to come back when he will fathered a few bastards (with Jon's reaction we know). 

I don't know about you guys, but as a teen, forbid/tell me not to do something, and I ended up doing it! 

And later, we learn that Benjen talked with Luwin about Jon joining the Watch. So it's possible that Benjen influenced Jon to go to the Wall and beyond.

When Jon arrives, Benjen is seldom present and finally is going missing. He seems up to something.

Hi Lunabricot.  My thoughts exactly.   The Watch could certainly use a warg/skinchanger at the Wall and I'm not sure Jon will develop that ability until he gets to the Wall.  Benjen almost certainly knows a thing or two about wildling skinchangers and the advantage that gives them.  I also wonder if Benjen is first among equals because he can skinchange ravens and if this is why he is such a threat to the wildlings.  

He's not going to get a soft landing at the Wall.  He has to become cold and hard.  So he's turned over to Thorne to be remade from a green boy.  As Aemon tells Jon about Sam; he has to kill the boy and let the man be born.  Unlike Waymar, Jon has to earn his privileges.

[alienarea]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Ned seems to have his own gaps

Because Bran interferes /wargs him?

[LynnS]

17 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Because Bran interferes /wargs him?

I don't know.  I'm guessing something to do with Howland's intervention at the TOJ, something that spills out in his fever dream.  If Bran did talk to Howland on the Isle of Faces and then warg him at the tourney; it implies that Howland knows more about Ned's future than Ned does.  Howland has to make sure that Ned survives so Bran is born in the future to become the last greenseer.   That knowledge is better hidden from Ned.  The fact that he never talks about Lyanna or the Knight of the Laughing Tree is also suspicious because of Jon's fate.  

I'm not even sure that Ned or Howland actually killed Arthur and that he didn't succumb to wounds from battle.  But it seems possible that Arthur could have killed Ned before he died himself.  I think some of these memories are suppressed  and when he recalls it in his dreams; the old dream intrudes, not unlike the heavy hand pressing on Bran's chest, when memories of Jaime pushing him from the old keep intrude.  

[alienarea]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I don't know.  I'm guessing something to do with Howland's intervention at the TOJ, something that spills out in his fever dream.  If Bran did talk to Howland on the Isle of Faces and then warg him at the tourney; it implies that Howland knows more about Ned's future than Ned does.  Howland has to make sure that Ned survives so Bran is born in the future to become the last greenseer.   That knowledge is better hidden from Ned.  The fact that he never talks about Lyanna or the Knight of the Laughing Tree is also suspicious because of Jon's fate.  

I'm not even sure that Ned or Howland actually killed Arthur and that he didn't succumb to wounds from battle.  But it seems possible that Arthur could have killed Ned before he died himself.  I think some of these memories are suppressed  and when he recalls it in his dreams; the old dream intrudes, not unlike the heavy hand pressing on Bran's chest, when memories of Jaime pushing him from the old keep intrude.  

And maybe, the old dream has been planted in Ned's memory, and the truth is something completely different.

Borrowing from my own lyrics:

The truth is nothing but a lie, that is good enough to last.

[Black Crow]

At this point I'm once again reminded of the infamous original "synopsis"

Here are the first thirteen chapters (170 pages) of the high fantasy novel I promised you, which I'm calling 'A Game of Thrones.' When completed, this will be the first volume in what I see as an epic trilogy with the overall title, 'A Song of Ice and Fire.'
As you know, I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it. I do, however, have some strong notions as to the overall structure of the story I'm telling, and the eventual fate of many of the principle characters in the drama. 

Obviously enough, its grown to more than a trilogy, probably because he failed to outline the story, but what's important is that the first 13 chapters had been written with that in mind. I've no doubt that by the time they made it into print they will have been revised and even re-written in places, but as GRRM has said that the mental picture of men in mediaeval dress crouched over something in a forest was the original starting point, it presumably formed the first of those chapters.

Its significant therefore that they encompass everything we've been talking about in this particular thread:

The encounter with the blue-eyed lot. Gared and the long dead direwolf and her living pups, their delivery to the children of Winterfell [and Lord Eddard's reaction], Bran the Blessed/Fisher King and his link through one of the direwolves to the Three-eyed Crow and then Benjen fetching Jon away to the Wall

Oh and we're briefly introduced to Danaerys Targaryen, although its possible that her chapter was inserted later and wasn't one of the original 13 chapters. 

In other words those first 13 chapters are concerned with setting up the children of Winterfell and their connection to the Wall, the Watch and Winter

 

[LynnS]

16 hours ago, alienarea said:

And maybe, the old dream has been planted in Ned's memory, and the truth is something completely different.

Borrowing from my own lyrics:

The truth is nothing but a lie, that is good enough to last.

Or the truth is pliable depending on who is looking.  Rereading the first 13 chapters and I just realized something:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II

That brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth. "Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me."

"Perhaps not," Catelyn said, "but Brandon is dead, and the cup has passed, and you must drink from it, like it or not."

Ned turned away from her, back to the night. He stood staring out in the darkness, watching the moon and the stars perhaps, or perhaps the sentries on the wall.

Catelyn softened then, to see his pain. Eddard Stark had married her in Brandon's place, as custom decreed, but the shadow of his dead brother still lay between them, as did the other, the shadow of the woman he would not name, the woman who had borne him his bastard son.

Love is the death of duty according to Aemon and Ned places duty over love when he takes Brandon's place.  His love is not Jon's mother, but Ashera Dayne, the love he gave up for duty.  He's reminded of her when Robert talks about fostering Jon Arryn's son; taking a pledge to protect him.  This opens old wounds for Ned:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

Robert's mouth gave a bitter twist. "Not well, in truth," he admitted. "I think losing Jon has driven the woman mad, Ned. She has taken the boy back to the Eyrie. Against my wishes. I had hoped to foster him with Tywin Lannister at Casterly Rock. Jon had no brothers, no other sons. Was I supposed to leave him to be raised by women?"

Ned would sooner entrust a child to a pit viper than to Lord Tywin, but he left his doubts unspoken. Some old wounds never truly heal, and bleed again at the slightest word. "The wife has lost the husband," he said carefully. "Perhaps the mother feared to lose the son. The boy is very young."

Ned can't leave Jon Snow to be raised by women and he has taken a pledge to protect Jon and raise him as his own son.  So again, duty over love.  Retrieving Jon from Starfall, opens old wounds. The loss of Lyanna and Ashera.  

[LynnS]

19 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

That's a good catch.  I guess that ends my theory that Mance was the one giving the speech about joining the Night's Watch at the Harrenhal tourney.  

It's still incongruent.  Benjen was a man of the Watch at the same time as Mance.  Mance talks about seeing Jon and Robb at Winterfell when he came with the LC to visit.  They couldn't have been at the same fort together if they never met..

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Ned can't leave Jon Snow to be raised by women and he has taken a pledge to protect Jon and raise him as his own son.  So again, duty over love.  Retrieving Jon from Starfall, opens old wounds. The loss of Lyanna and Ashera.  

Ashara has three siblings: an unnamed elder brother (father of Edric), Arthur, and her sister Allyria. 

Edric says this to Arya:

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Arya VIII

"Tell me."

He looked at her uncomfortably. "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal—"

"That's not so. He loved my lady mother."

 

The text says Ned went to Starfall to return Dawn to House Dayne. I personally doubt that Ashara ever had an elder brother. The only evidence of his existence is a presumption. Ashara supposedly committed suicide, Arthur is dead, and Edric names Allyria as his aunt. Edric claims "Dayne" as his last name, therefore it is assumed that his father was also a Dayne, thus the presumption. We are supposed to accept the notion that a male Lord Dayne was so grateful to receive Dawn that he named his child after Ned. I'm not buying it. I think Ashara is still alive and living in her family home as Wylla and Edric is her son - father unknown, but too young to be Ned's. It's a southern retelling of the Bastard O Winterfell. House Dayne didn't have an heir, so one was made. 

Circling back to what inspired this post - the text where Robert said he didn't want Jon Arryn's son to be raised by women. If Ned had left Jon with Ashara he would have been raised by women too.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Circling back to what inspired this post - the text where Robert said he didn't want Jon Arryn's son to be raised by women. If Ned had left Jon with Ashara he would have been raised by women too.

That's what I'm getting at too.

What's striking me about Ned is his complete dismissal of signs and portents.  The direwolves are a case in point.  All of his men at arms are uneasy by the dead direwolf killed by a stag.  Catelyn as well.  She sees it as a ominous sign and Jon says they were meant to have the direwolves.  Ned doesn't give it much credit.  And yet his old dream is just that: signs and portents.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

"Lord Eddard," Lyanna called again.

  Lyanna screaming brings to mind the banshee:

Quote

"woman of the fairy mound" or "fairy woman") is a female spirit in Irish folklore who heralds the death of a family member

Sometimes she has long streaming hair and wears a gray cloak over a green dress, and her eyes are red from continual weeping.[3] She may be dressed in white 

So I think the 'signs and portents' part of the dream starts with a warning of Ned's impending death.  What follows are more signs and portents.  The red comet, the coming storm, dragons and white walkers.  

 Lyanna is the Queen of Winter (crown of winter roses) and mother to the next King of Winter.

A blood-streaked sky:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn I

She followed him out onto the stone balcony that jutted three-sided from the solar like the prow of a ship. Her uncle glanced up, frowning. "You can see it by day now. My men call it the Red Messenger . . . but what is the message?"

Catelyn raised her eyes, to where the faint red line of the comet traced a path across the deep blue sky like a long scratch across the face of god. "The Greatjon told Robb that the old gods have unfurled a red flag of vengeance for Ned. Edmure thinks it's an omen of victory for Riverrun—he sees a fish with a long tail, in the Tully colors, red against blue." She sighed. "I wish I had their faith. Crimson is a Lannister color."

According to Aemon the message is that Dany is the PWIP.  The mother of dragons.

[Black Crow]

38 minutes ago, LynnS said:

What's striking me about Ned is his complete dismissal of signs and portents.  The direwolves are a case in point.  All of his men at arms are uneasy by the dead direwolf killed by a stag. 

There's an old Scots saying [translated] that there's none so blind as those who refuse to see.

Lord Eddard isn't dismissive at all, rather he's in denial. I've just checked that particular scene and its not only Jory Cassel and the rest of the men who are uneasy when they discover the dead direwolf [not seen for 200 years], Lord Eddard is unhappy/uneasy too and all for killing the pups immediately. Its only when Jon forces his hand by pointing out the symetry and declaring that the pups were meant for the true-born children that he reluctantly relents.

Its not just Jon of course, while all the men are muttering darkly, the other boys are eager to have them and so, later of course are Sansa and Arya.

I think Lord Eddard [and his men] knew exactly what was the significance of the slain direwolf, [and perhaps the antler-bone dagger as well] and those pups "born with the dead" and recognised what they meant, but Lord Eddard didn't want to accept it - until Jon backed him into a corner by pressing the significance of a direwolf pup for each of the children. Moreover he also accepted keeping the pups because Jon agreed that he would not take one - and then of course Jon went and accepted one after all, because once Lord Eddard agreed and went on his way, another pup turned up, as if by magic, to complete the set 

[LynnS]

6 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

There's an old Scots saying [translated] that there's none so blind as those who refuse to see.

Lord Eddard isn't dismissive at all, rather he's in denial. I've just checked that particular scene and its not only Jory Cassel and the rest of the men who are uneasy when they discover the dead direwolf [not seen for 200 years], lord Eddard is unhappy/uneasy too and all for killing the pups immediately. Its only when Jon forces his hand by pointing out the symetry and declaring that the pups were meant for the children that he reluctantly relents.

Its not just Jon of course, while all the men are muttering darkly, the other boys are eager to have them and so, of course are Sansa and Arya.

I think Lord Eddard [and his men] knew exactly what the significance of the slain direwolf, [and perhaps the antler-bone dagger as well] and those pups "born with the dead" and recognised what they meant, but Lord Eddard didn't want to accept it - until Jon backed him into a corner by pressing the significance of a direwolf pup for each of the children. Moreover he also accepted keeping the pups because Jon agreed that he would not take one - and then of course Jon went and accepted one after all, because after Lord Eddard agreed and went on his way, another pup turned up, as if by magic, to complete the set 

Yes, I think this is a better reading of that passage.  The discovery of the direwolves follows Gared's last words of which we hear nothing.  Except that we are privy to the encounter with the WW's.  This would have put everyone on edge.

[Black Crow]

Not to mention that its a beast not seen south of the Wall for 200 years

The direwolf is dead and yet has birthed pups - and there's that reference to their being "born with the dead" a phrase which isn't explained but which the men recognise and which gives them the screaming ab-dabs

And there's something too which Eddard and the others from Winterfell recognise about the one for one and which Lord Eddard at first thinks he can avoid, because the numbers don't quite match

He also didn't look too keen about discovering the antler in her throat - or  was it a bone dagger like Val's.,

In short, Lord Eddard and his men are crapping themselves in that scene. Its not difficult to see why, its just a matter of figuring out the actual meaning of those signs and portents.

[LynnS]

11 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

The direwolf is dead and yet has birthed pups - and there's that reference to their being "born with the dead" a phrase which isn't explained but which the men recognise and which gives them the screaming ab-dabs

"Born with the dead."  They are all dead men walking.  The direwolves are given to protect the Stark kids.  But everyone else will join Theon in the feast for the dead.  The coming storm is also about the dead walking.

[Tucu]

"born with the dead" seems to be a reference to an award-winning novella of the same name by Robert Silverberg. Here is a short summary:

Quote

This Robert Silverberg novella was nominated for every major science fiction award when it was released, and won the coveted Nebula and Locus awards. A man's wife is among the rekindled dead now. He's heard that she was on an airplane to Zanzibar with five other rekindled dead. As a "warm" he was not really allowed to make contact with her. The dead liked to stay in their cold-cities. But he'd loved her so much when she was alive, he just had to try. (Nebula Award(R) Winner; Locus Award Winner; Hugo Award Nominee; Science
Fiction Hall of Fame Pick

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

In short, Lord Eddard and his men are crapping themselves in that scene. Its not difficult to see why, its just a matter of figuring out the actual meaning of those signs and portents.

I've been thinking a lot on signs and portents.  Most prophecies, dreams seems loaded with them.  The meaning sure isn't obvious but sometimes we get the meaning from other passages if you notice them.  A good example is Mirri's prophecy about Danny seeing Drogo again.  On the surface of it; the answer is no, not even remotely a possibility.

But then Tyrion sees the sun rising in the west.  What he really sees is a blood moon eclipse. an ominous sign in itself.  A lot of these prophecies are about when something happens:

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Davos I

Melisandre was robed all in scarlet satin and blood velvet, her eyes as red as the great ruby that glistened at her throat as if it too were afire. "In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him." She lifted her voice, so it carried out over the gathered host. "Azor Ahai, beloved of R'hllor! The Warrior of Light, the Son of Fire! Come forth, your sword awaits you! Come forth and take it into your hand!"

Mirri's second line is also about when something happens:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"When will he be as he was?" Dany demanded.

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

This one is easy and difficult.  The Dothraki seas dry up in the fall.  This is when mountains will blow in the wind like leaves.  I think in this case 'mountains' is hyperbole for characters who are larger than life; giants and mountains.  So it may be pointing to characters like Tyrion and Brienne who are blown about by the winds of outrageous fortune.

Tyrion actually see mountains blowing in the wind from the eye of a hurricane.  He's the one who actually sees the sign and the sign is about him. 

Here's one that may refer to Brienne:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Brienne I

Only the soldier pines and sentinels still showed green; the broadleaf trees had donned mantles of russet and gold, or else uncloaked themselves to scratch against the sky with branches brown and bare. Every gust of wind drove swirling clouds of dead leaves across the rutted road. They made a rustling sound as they scuttled past the hooves of the big bay mare that Jaime Lannister had bestowed on her. As easy to find one leaf in the wind as one girl lost in Westeros. She found herself wondering whether Jaime had given her this task as some cruel jape. Perhaps Sansa Stark was dead, beheaded for her part in King Joffrey's death, buried in some unmarked grave. How better to conceal her murder than by sending some big stupid wench from Tarth to find her?

The last bit about Dany bearing another child also seems likely now.  Since she bleeds at the end of DwD. It seems her menses have returned since she tries to recall when she had her last.  I think Frey Family Reunion is correct that she miscarried due of her state of starvation and eating poisonous berries.  

So it seems likely that she will bear another living child.  Then Drogo will be as he was, whatever that means.

What do all these signs portend?  Winter is coming and:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Prologue

"They do," mused Alleras, the Sphinx, "and if there are dragons in the world again . . ."

"Dragons and darker things," said Leo. "The grey sheep have closed their eyes, but the mastiff sees the truth. Old powers waken. Shadows stir. An age of wonder and terror will soon be upon us, an age for gods and heroes." He stretched, smiling his lazy smile. "That's worth a round, I'd say."

 

 

 

[Frey family reunion]

Just to change topics for a moment.  As many of you know, I’m very skeptical of the traditional view that Lyanna was present in the tower of joy.   Ned’s fever dream was the only thing that even suggested it, and notably GRRM warned us not to take Ned’s fever dream too literally.  

And while much of Ned’s dream is corroborated by his conscious memory of the past events, Lyanna actually being inside the tower where the three Kingsguards were stationed was not corroborated by any memory of his.

Likewise, it seems a bit suspect to use the chronology of a dream to try and establish an actual location.  Our dreams can flip through many different memories and link them in ways that may not have to do with location or time.

The other issue that always troubled me is why would Rhaegar secrete Lyanna in the middle of the Prince’s Pass?  A location that was meant for passage of Dornish armies.  We should believe that Rhaegar would choose this place to bring his paramour, with whom he may be thinking of replacing his Dornish wife?  An unfortified location that would subject Lyanna to both the armies of Dorne and to Robert’s forces that may try and force their way into Dorne in their rebellion.

Looking at a detailed, interactive map of Westeros, one thing hit me that made me even more skeptical of the traditional narrative.  Looking at the map, and then double checking with the maps found in the original books, we’re given plenty of information as to whose land the tower of joy rests on.  The only castle close to the tower of joy, just to the south is Kingsgrave, the seat of House Manwoody.

It’s also apparent that the castles along the Prince’s Pass are used by the Dornes to control the Pass.  Fowler protects Dorne at the mouth of the Prince’s Pass, while Manwoody’s only purpose could be control over the interior of the Pass itself.

So this begs the question, what do we know about House Manwoody?  Almost everything we know is found in ASOS, from Oberyn’s adventures in King’s Landing.

Quote

“Bronn laughed. “Reading books again? Books will ruin your sword eye, boy. I see a skull too. A black banner.”
“The crowned skull of House Manwoody, bone and gold on black.” Pod sounded more confident with every correct answer. “The Manwoodys of Kingsgrave.”

Quote

“Permit me to acquaint you with them, my lord of Lannister. Ser Deziel Dalt, of Lemonwood. Lord Tremond Gargalen. Lord Harmen Uller and his brother Ser Ulwyck. Ser Ryon Allyrion and his natural son Ser Daemon Sand, the Bastard of Godsgrace. Lord Dagos Manwoody, his brother Ser Myles, his sons Mors and Dickon. Ser Arron Qorgyle. And never let it be thought that I would neglect the ladies. Myria Jordayne, heir to the Tor. Lady Larra Blackmont, her daughter Jynessa, her son Perros.”

So in other words, Oberyn’s journey to King’s Landing, to gain vengeance for what was done to his sister Elia Martell, was in the company of a select group of lords to include Lord Dagos Manwoody.  But wait, it gets even more interesting.  As Oberyn was preparing for his duel with the Mountain, two people assisted him with his preparations:

Quote

Prince Oberyn raised his arms, so Lord Dagos Manwoody and the Bastard of Godsgrace could slip a chainmail byrnie down over his head.

Quote

“She thought so,” Prince Oberyn agreed, “but your father is not a man to forget such slights. He taught that lesson to Lord and Lady Tarbeck once, and to the Reynes of Castamere. And at King’s Landing, he taught it to my sister. My helm, Dagos.” Manwoody handed it to him; a high golden helm with a copper disk mounted on the brow, the sun of Dorne.

So before the most important fight of his life, Oberyn is being attended to by a bastard and one of the lords of Dorne.  We know that Daemon Sand used to be one of Oberyn’s squires:

Quote

“There is some news from Dorne that Your Grace may find of more interest. Prince Doran has imprisoned Ser Daemon Sand, a bastard who once squired for the Red Viper.”

So it stands to reason that the other person that was performing duties for Oberyn like a squire, was also one of Oberyn’s former squires.  And since Dagos is now a lord who has two sons old enough to ride with him to King’s Landing, it stands to reason that Dagos squired for Oberyn back around the time of the rebellion.  

Which would also be the time that Lyanna was allegedly being kept in the tower of joy in the lands of House Manwoody.  

So why would Rhaegar bring his paramour to the jurisdiction of House Manwoody, who’s ties to Oberyn, the very protective brother of Rhaegar’s jilted wife, are so strong that their heir was Oberyn’s squire?

Curiouser and Curiouser.

[Melifeather]

48 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Just to change topics for a moment.  As many of you know, I’m very skeptical of the traditional view that Lyanna was present in the tower of joy.   Ned’s fever dream was the only thing that even suggested it, and notably GRRM warned us not to take Ned’s fever dream too literally.  

And while much of Ned’s dream is corroborated by his conscious memory of the past events, Lyanna actually being inside the tower where the three Kingsguards were stationed was not corroborated by any memory of his.

Likewise, it seems a bit suspect to use the chronology of a dream to try and establish an actual location.  Our dreams can flip through many different memories and link them in ways that may not have to do with location or time.

The other issue that always troubled me is why would Rhaegar secrete Lyanna in the middle of the Prince’s Pass?  A location that was meant for passage of Dornish armies.  We should believe that Rhaegar would choose this place to bring his paramour, with whom he may be thinking of replacing his Dornish wife?  An unfortified location that would subject Lyanna to both the armies of Dorne and to Robert’s forces that may try and force their way into Dorne in their rebellion.

Looking at a detailed, interactive map of Westeros, one thing hit me that made me even more skeptical of the traditional narrative.  Looking at the map, and then double checking with the maps found in the original books, we’re given plenty of information as to who’s land the tower of joy rests on.  The only castle close to the tower of joy, just to the south is Kingsgrave, the seat of House Manwoody.

It’s also apparent that the castles along the Prince’s Pass are used by the Dornes to control the Pass.  Fowler protects Dorne at the mouth of the Prince’s Pass, while Manwoody’s only purpose could be control over the interior of the Pass itself.

So this begs the question, what do we know about House Manwoody?  Almost everything we know is found in ASOS, from Oberyn’s adventures in King’s Landing.

So in other words, Oberyn’s journey to King’s Landing, to gain vengeance for what was done to his sister Elia Martell, was in the company of a select group of lords to include Lord Dagos Manwoody.  But wait, it gets even more interesting.  As Oberyn was preparing for his duel with the Mountain, two people assisted him with his preparations:

So before the most important fight of his life, Oberyn is being attended to by a bastard and one of the lords of Dorne.  We know that Daemon Sand used to be one of Oberyn’s squires:

So it stands to reason that the other person that was performing duties for Oberyn like a squire, was also one of Oberyn’s former squires.  And since Dagos is now a lord who has two sons old enough to ride with him to King’s Landing, it stands to reason that Dagos squired for Oberyn back around the time of the rebellion.  

Which would also be the time that Lyanna was allegedly being kept in the tower of joy in the lands of House Manwoody.  

So why would Rhaegar bring his paramour to the jurisdiction of House Manwoody, who’s ties to Oberyn, the very protective brother of Rhaegar’s jilted wife, are so strong that their heir was Oberyn’s squire?

Curiouser and Curiouser.

 

I'll answer that with Dunk's parallel dream to the Ned's fever dream:

Quote

 

The Sworn Sword

Woven branches cracked and splintered beneath his iron-shod hooves. Ser Bennis rattled off a pungent string of curses as chickens and peasants scattered in all directions. Egg fought manfully to hold his laughter in, but finally lost the battle.

"Enough of that." Dunk drew Thunder to a halt, unfastened his helm, and tore it off. "If they do that in a battle, it will get the whole lot of them killed." And you and me as well, most like. The morning was already hot, and he felt as soiled and sticky as if he'd never bathed at all. His head was pounding, and he could not forget the dream he dreamed the night before. It never happened that way, he tried to tell himself. It wasn't like that. Chestnut had died on the long dry ride to Vaith, that part was true. He and Egg rode double until Egg's brother gave them Maester. The rest of it, though . . .

 

 

In this passage, Chestnut the old horse is the stand-in for Lyanna...

There's a saying about an old chestnut as in, "oh, that old chestnut". A chestnut is a story that has become tedious because of its age and constant repetition.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

There's a saying about an old chestnut as in, "oh, that old chestnut". A chestnut is a story that has become tedious because of its age and constant repetition.

I think this refers to William Diamond's Play, The Broken Sword when a character in the story says that he has heard the story another is telling many times before; except  in one version a detail is changed.  The character refers to a cork tree instead of a chestnut tree.  This phrase old chestnut is later coined at a dinner party to mean a story or joke that had become worn and tired and everyone has heard it before. 

In Dunk's story it sounds like something is changed about his memory of the chestnut horse but he's not quite sure what?