Heresy 237 The Ballad of Trouserless Bob Baratheon

[Melifeather]

The problem for me regarding the location of the tower of joy is that it seems like a compromise, as if the map creator placed it there, because its inferred by the books and then GRRM just decided to go along with it so as to not spoil one of his mysteries. The fact of the matter is that while it is an old dream, it is still a dream, and GRRM has said that our dreams are not literal. To complicate matters is the last thing Ned saw before he has the dream. He looked directly at the Red Keep and noted how the the walls looked as red as blood. Its my opinion this vision of the blood red walls manifested as the red mountains. Its an allegory really.

[alienarea]

15 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

The problem for me regarding the location of the tower of joy is that it seems like a compromise, as if the map creator placed it there, because its inferred by the books and then GRRM just decided to go along with it so as to not spoil one of his mysteries. The fact of the matter is that while it is an old dream, it is still a dream, and GRRM has said that our dreams are not literal. To complicate matters is the last thing Ned saw before he has the dream. He looked directly at the Red Keep and noted how the the walls looked as red as blood. Its my opinion this vision of the blood red walls manifested as the red mountains. Its an allegory really.

I know this is probably provoking to my fellow heretics, but GRRM is a hack like D&D, just camouflaging it a bit better behind behind mysteries ("things I don't want to explain right now") and the unreliable narrator ("my excuse when things don't add up").

Lyanna gets kidnapped by Rhaegar and this triggers the rebellion. After the war has ended, her brother Ned returns with her bones and a baby, and nobody questions whether it is her child. Also, the baby has about the same age as Ned's first child with his wife. In case the baby is Lyanna's, it was conceived some month after her abduction.

In parallel, the new king Robert keeps Varys, the master of whispers for the old king, in exactly the same position, while in real life those people usually got executed after a coup d'etat.

Flash forward to the beginning of the story. Ned's second son Bran falls down a tower as and it's not sure whether Bran will live or die, but Ned leaves with Robert for King's Landing.

In King's Landing, Ned discovers that his and Robert's old friend Jon Arryn, who started the rebellion to protect them, has been poisoned and Robert's children are not his. Instead of telling his best friend, the king, he warns the queen he hardly knows and who committed adultery ...

I'm sure there's room for a supersonic raven

 

[Black Crow]

This is why I always tend to the simple explanations

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I love the Nordic sense of humor that comes out whenever they talk. Have you seen the Norwegian comedy series Norsemen on Netflix?

I don't have cable so I wait for stuff to come out on DVD.  I've been watching Season One of "The Great" an occassionaly true story*. A monty python-ish satire of Catherine the Great.  And Star Trek Discovery season 3, which is damn tear-jerky.  Sniff, sniff. 

THE GREAT Trailer (2020) Elle Fanning, Nicholas Hoult Movie - YouTube

[Melifeather]

I think I may have seen an episode of The Great. Is Helen Mirrin, Catherine? On no. I take that back...

 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I don't have cable so I wait for stuff to come out on DVD.  I've been watching Season One of "The Great" an occassionaly true story*. A monty python-ish satire of Catherine the Great.  And Star Trek Discovery season 3, which is damn tear-jerky.  Sniff, sniff. 

THE GREAT Trailer (2020) Elle Fanning, Nicholas Hoult Movie - YouTube

 I have Hulu, so I am so watching this! I love anything that has a bit of actual history in it.

[Tucu]

TIL that there is something fishy about Shadrich. The shad or river herring is a type of oily fish in the same family as the herring. So Shadrich is:

-an oily fish

-a rich fish, not a poor hedge knight as he claims

-given his red hair, he is a red herring

-he is from the Shady Glen, a vale of shades? a valley of shadows?

[LynnS]

13 minutes ago, Tucu said:

TIL that there is something fishy about Shadrich. The shad or river herring is a type of oily fish in the same family as the herring. So Shadrich is:

-an oily fish

-a rich fish, not a poor hedge knight as he claim

-given his red hair, he is a red herring

-he is from the Shady Glen, a vale of shades? a valley of shadows?

I've been wondering if he dyes his hair and a shady glen can also be under the forest canopy.

[Tucu]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I've been wondering if he dyes his hair and a shady glen can also be under the forest canopy.

From The Sworn Sword:

Quote

An hour upstream from the bridge, they found themselves riding on the edge of the small Osgrey forest called Wat's Wood. The greenery looked inviting from afar, and filled Dunk's head with thoughts of shady glens and chuckling brooks, but when they reached the trees they found them thin and scraggly, with drooping limbs. Some of the great oaks were shedding leaves, and half the pines had turned as brown as Ser Bennis, with rings of dead needles girdling their trunks. Worse and worse, thought Dunk. One spark, and this will all go up like tinder.

 

[Melifeather]

18 minutes ago, Tucu said:

TIL that there is something fishy about Shadrich. The shad or river herring is a type of oily fish in the same family as the herring. So Shadrich is:

-an oily fish

-a rich fish, not a poor hedge knight as he claim

-given his red hair, he is a red herring

-he is from the Shady Glen, a vale of shades? a valley of shadows?

That's an interesting analogy...Shadrich being a red herring. There are certainly parallels to Arya and Howland which I've outlined before. I wonder what it is about Shadrich that makes him a red herring? I feel like it might have something to do with this particular parallel:

Howland:  The maiden that went missing was Howland's friend, and Lyanna died when she was found.

Arya:  Arya herself is the maiden that went missing, and symbolically she's dead, but technically she's not missing, because the Lannisters came up with a fake.

Shadrich:  Sansa went missing from Kings Landing, and so far Petyr's actions have remained hidden. If Shadrich plans to capture Sansa for the reward, will he accidentally kill her, or will he be the one that ends up dead?

The tourney in the Vale of Arryn that is about to unfold in the next book shows promise of being a repeat of the tourney at Harrenhal, albeit with twists.

@Tucu - you were the one that had brought to my attention the potential setup for the repeat of the "dance with Ashara". You pointed out that the Waynwoods have Stark blood and therefore are stand-ins for Brandon and Ned - the wild wolf and the quiet wolf. Catelyn Stark explained how the Waynwoods are possible heirs for Robb should Jeyne fail to give him a son, she said:

Quote

"You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a son." She considered a moment. "Your father's father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest . . . it might have been a Templeton, but . . ."

In the Alayne chapter the two "wild and quiet" Waynwoods approach Sansa to ask her to dance - a role that was previously filled by Ashara Dayne. Myranda passes a comment that:

Quote

“The first Lady Waynwood must have been a mare, I think. How else to explain why all the Waynwood men are horse-faced? 

Sounds like the Waynwoods inherited the Stark long face. 

Speaking of Myranda...she and Alayne seem to be repeating the un-related sister duo*, and later on in the Alayne chapter she challenges Alayne to a footrace to get to the gate to see who greets the Waynwoods first. Myranda loses her cloak along the way which I believe is a reference to how Sansa lost her wolf Lady.

Alayne was introduced to the Waynwoods by their mother - Ser Roland (elder at 25, taller, more muscular, wild wolf) and Ser Wallace (younger, quiet wolf) - and of course their ward, Harry the Heir was with them. Harry seems to be a parallel to Rhaegar or quite possibly Robert Baratheon. Ser Wallace, the younger and quieter wolf, stutters. Did Ned get tongue tied around Ashara? Ser Roland is more confident and suave with the ladies - just like Brandon.

Quote

Harry was staring at her. He knows who I am, she realized, and he does not seem pleased to see me. It was only then that she took note of his heraldry. Though his surcoat and horse trappings were patterned in the red-and-white diamonds of House Hardyng, his shield was quartered. The arms of Hardyng and Waynwood were displayed in the first and third quarters, respectively, but in the second and fourth quarters he bore the moon-and-falcon of House Arryn, sky blue and cream. Sweetrobin will not like that.
     
Ser Wallace said, “Are we the l-l-last?”
     
“You are, sers,” replied Myranda Royce, taking absolutely no notice of his stammer.
     
“Wh-wh-when will the t-t-tilts commence?”
     
“Oh, soon, I pray,” said Randa. “Some of the competitors have been here for almost a moon’s turn, partaking of my father’s meat and mead. All good fellows, and very brave… but they do eat rather a lot.”
     
The Waynwoods laughed, and even Harry the Heir cracked a thin smile. “It was snowing in the passes, else we would have been here sooner,” said Lady Anya.
     
“Had we known such beauty awaited us at the Gates, we would have flown,” Ser Roland said.  Though his words were addressed to Myranda Royce, he smiled at Alayne as he said them.
     
“To fly you would need wings,” Randa replied, “and there are some knights here who might have a thing to say concerning that.”
     
“I look forward to a spirited discussion.” Ser Roland swung down from his horse, turned to Alayne, and smiled.  “I had heard that Lord Littlefinger’s daughter was fair of face and full of grace, but no one ever told me that she was a thief.”
     
“You wrong me, ser. I am no thief!”
     
Ser Roland placed his hand over his heart. “Then how do you explain this hole in my chest, from where you stole my heart?”
     
“He is only t-teasing you, my lady,” stammered Ser Wallace. “My n-n-nephew never had a h-h-heart.”
     
“The Waynwood wheel has a broken spoke, and we have my nuncle here.” Ser Roland gave Wallace a whap behind the ear.  “Squires should be quiet when knights are speaking.”
     
Ser Wallace reddened.  “I am no more a s-squire, my lady.  My n-nephew knows full well that I was k-k-kni-k-k-kni –“
     
“Dubbed?” Alayne suggested gently.
     
“Dubbed,” said Wallace Waynwood, gratefully.
     
Robb would be his age, if he were still alive, she could not help but think, but Robb died a king, and this is just a boy.
     
“My lord father has assigned you rooms in the East Tower,” Lady Myranda was telling Lady Waynwood, “but I fear your knights will need to share a bed. The Gates of the Moon were never meant to house so many noble visitors.”
     
“You are in the Falcon Tower, Ser Harrold,” Alayne put in. Far away from Sweetrobin. That was intentional, she knew. Petyr Baelish did not leave such things to chance. “If it please you, I will show you to your chambers myself.” This time her eyes met Harry’s.  She smiled just for him, and said a silent prayer to the Maiden. Please, he doesn’t need to love me, just make him like me, just a little, that would be enough for now.
     
Ser Harrold looked down at her coldly. “Why should it please me to be escorted anywhere by Littlefinger’s bastard?”
     
All three Waynwoods looked at him askance. “You are a guest here, Harry,” Lady Anya reminded him, in a frosty voice. “See that you remember that.”
     
A lady’s armor is her courtesy. Alayne could feel the blood rushing to her face. No tears, she prayed. Please, please, I must not cry. “As you wish, ser. And now if you will excuse me, Littlefinger’s bastard must find her lord father and let him know that you have come, so we can begin the tourney on the morrow.”  And may your horse stumble, Harry the Heir, so you fall on your stupid head in your first tilt. She showed the Waynwoods a stone face as they blurted out awkward apologies for their companion. When they were done she turned and fled.

Here are some additional parallels that are revealed when adding the Alayne chapters:

H: Lyanna came upon three squires bullying Howland.
A: Joffrey and Sansa came upon Arya and Mycah practicing with swords.
S: Alayne bumped into Shadrich after watching two knights practice with tourney swords.

H: Ashara meets three men. Brandon approaches Ashara and smooths the way for Ned (Jon Arryn’s ward), but I think Ashara has eyes for Robert Baratheon.
A: Sansa meets three men on her way to ride with Cersei in the wheelhouse. The Kingsguard Barristan Selmy and Renly Baratheon in his green armor and antlered helm. The part of the “ward” is played by Sandor Clegane. I see him in this role, because he is serving as a knight, but not in an official capacity. He refuses to be called a knight and is an outsider just as a ward would be. (I'm not completely satisfied with this particular parallel, because it needs to apply to Arya more than Sansa)
S: Alayne meets three men. Two Stark relatives, Roland and Wallace Waynwood, and their family’s ward, Harry the Heir.

H: Ashara dances with many men during the tourney.
A: Arya refuses to “dance” the part of a noble lady. Her choice of “dance” is a much more dangerous game. She puts Mycah at risk by allowing him to practice with a real sword. 
S: Alayne “dances” around the Vale greeting newcomers to the tourney, because Sweetrobin won’t get out of bed. 

H: Robert Baratheon competes in the melee. Howland prays for a way to win and is possibly the Knight of the Laughing Tree.
A: Nymeria bites Joffrey and Arya throws his sword in the Trident. Arya hides in the “hedges” and her “tourney” becomes a real fight/flight for her life.
S: Alayne suggests that Shadrich compete in the melee since he is a hedge knight. Shadrich won’t compete as he saves his valor for the battlefield.

H: After the tourney, Lyanna ran from the searchers for the Knight of the Laughing Tree.
A: Arya ran from the searchers looking to find her and shooed Nymeria away before she could be captured. Sansa loses Lady’s life after Arya is found.
S: Myranda challenges Alayne to a footrace to the gate to greet the Waynwoods. For just a little while, while she ran, Alayne forgot who she was and where and found herself remembering bright cold days at Winterfell. Myranda lost her cloak along the way, and I wonder if this is intended to parallel Sansa’s loss of her wolf?

 

*The un-related sister duo is a theory of mine which takes note of the parallels between:

Lyanna, Myranda, Arya, and Falyse versus Ashara, Sansa, Sansa, and Lollys.

[Tucu]

12 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

That's an interesting analogy...Shadrich being a red herring. There are certainly parallels to Arya and Howland which I've outlined before. I wonder what it is about Shadrich that makes him a red herring? I feel like it might have something to do with this particular parallel:

Howland:  The maiden that went missing was Howland's friend, and Lyanna died when she was found.

Arya:  Arya herself is the maiden that went missing, and symbolically she's dead, but technically she's not missing, because the Lannisters came up with a fake.

Shadrich:  Sansa went missing from Kings Landing, and so far Petyr's actions have remained hidden. If Shadrich plans to capture Sansa for the reward, will he accidentally kill her, or will he be the one that ends up dead?

The tourney in the Vale of Arryn that is about to unfold in the next book shows promise of being a repeat of the tourney at Harrenhal, albeit with twists.

@Tucu - you were the one that had brought to my attention the potential setup for the repeat of the "dance with Ashara". You pointed out that the Waynwoods have Stark blood and therefore are stand-ins for Brandon and Ned - the wild wolf and the quiet wolf. Catelyn Stark explained how the Waynwoods are possible heirs for Robb should Jeyne fail to give him a son, she said:

In the Alayne chapter the two "wild and quiet" Waynwoods approach Sansa to ask her to dance - a role that was previously filled by Ashara Dayne. Myranda passes a comment that:

Sounds like the Waynwoods inherited the Stark long face. 

Speaking of Myranda...she and Alayne seem to be repeating the un-related sister duo*, and later on in the Alayne chapter she challenges Alayne to a footrace to get to the gate to see who greets the Waynwoods first. Myranda loses her cloak along the way which I believe is a reference to how Sansa lost her wolf Lady.

Alayne was introduced to the Waynwoods by their mother - Ser Roland (elder at 25, taller, more muscular, wild wolf) and Ser Wallace (younger, quiet wolf) - and of course their ward, Harry the Heir was with them. Harry seems to be a parallel to Rhaegar or quite possibly Robert Baratheon. Ser Wallace, the younger and quieter wolf, stutters. Did Ned get tongue tied around Ashara? Ser Roland is more confident and suave with the ladies - just like Brandon.

Here are some additional parallels that are revealed when adding the Alayne chapters:

H: Lyanna came upon three squires bullying Howland.
A: Joffrey and Sansa came upon Arya and Mycah practicing with swords.
S: Alayne bumped into Shadrich after watching two knights practice with tourney swords.

H: Ashara meets three men. Brandon approaches Ashara and smooths the way for Ned (Jon Arryn’s ward), but I think Ashara has eyes for Robert Baratheon.
A: Sansa meets three men on her way to ride with Cersei in the wheelhouse. The Kingsguard Barristan Selmy and Renly Baratheon in his green armor and antlered helm. The part of the “ward” is played by Sandor Clegane. I see him in this role, because he is serving as a knight, but not in an official capacity. He refuses to be called a knight and is an outsider just as a ward would be. (I'm not completely satisfied with this particular parallel, because it needs to apply to Arya more than Sansa)
S: Alayne meets three men. Two Stark relatives, Roland and Wallace Waynwood, and their family’s ward, Harry the Heir.

H: Ashara dances with many men during the tourney.
A: Arya refuses to “dance” the part of a noble lady. Her choice of “dance” is a much more dangerous game. She puts Mycah at risk by allowing him to practice with a real sword. 
S: Alayne “dances” around the Vale greeting newcomers to the tourney, because Sweetrobin won’t get out of bed. 

H: Robert Baratheon competes in the melee. Howland prays for a way to win and is possibly the Knight of the Laughing Tree.
A: Nymeria bites Joffrey and Arya throws his sword in the Trident. Arya hides in the “hedges” and her “tourney” becomes a real fight/flight for her life.
S: Alayne suggests that Shadrich compete in the melee since he is a hedge knight. Shadrich won’t compete as he saves his valor for the battlefield.

H: After the tourney, Lyanna ran from the searchers for the Knight of the Laughing Tree.
A: Arya ran from the searchers looking to find her and shooed Nymeria away before she could be captured. Sansa loses Lady’s life after Arya is found.
S: Myranda challenges Alayne to a footrace to the gate to greet the Waynwoods. For just a little while, while she ran, Alayne forgot who she was and where and found herself remembering bright cold days at Winterfell. Myranda lost her cloak along the way, and I wonder if this is intended to parallel Sansa’s loss of her wolf?

 

*The un-related sister duo is a theory of mine which takes note of the parallels between:

Lyanna, Myranda, Arya, and Falyse versus Ashara, Sansa, Sansa, and Lollys.

For us Shadrich is a mystery knight with a shield with red eyes and a white face. He laughs a lot and mocks Brienne:

Quote

He laughed. "I am big enough where it counts, wench."

<...>

Ser Shadrich laughed. "Oh, I doubt that, but it may be that you and I share a quest. A little lost sister, is it? With blue eyes and auburn hair?" He laughed again. "You are not the only hunter in the woods. I seek for Sansa Stark as well."

And as @LynnS pointed out, he is from the woods or trees. So a laughing knight from the trees ;-)

 

[Melifeather]

9 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I wonder what it is about Shadrich that makes him a red herring?

One possibility is that each parallel has a red herring. Howland, Arya, and Shadrich. The last one of course is that Shadrich himself is a red herring. Arya pulled off Weasel soup. Wasn't that a type of red herring that she pulled off? As for Howland...Lyanna's abduction was the red herring.

[Melifeather]

2 minutes ago, Tucu said:

For us Shadrich is a mystery knight with a shield with red eyes and a white face. He laughs a lot and mocks Brienne:

And as @LynnS pointed out, he is from the woods or trees. So a laughing knight from the trees ;-)

 

Exactly. Everything about Shadrich is literal. I assert that he is a red herring. His name is a herring and his hair is red. He's also literally the mystery knight and the laughing tree. He's also the literal flying mouse of Harrenhal. His parallel is basically a template for the other two.

[Tucu]

11 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Exactly. Everything about Shadrich is literal. I assert that he is a red herring. His name is a herring and his hair is red. He's also literally the mystery knight and the laughing tree. He's also the literal flying mouse of Harrenhal. His parallel is basically a template for the other two.

We have to keep and eye on Alayne I and II in TWoW. When it finally arrives I might go directly to those chapters.

Another parallel that gets a bit weird is Sweetrobin+Alayne and Aerys+Ashara

Sweetrobin has been isolated for a long time, more than a bit mad and travels to a tourney to name his personal guards. He is more than a bit touchy with Alayne. Aerys was also isolated, really mad and travels to a tourney where he will add Jamie to the KG. Ashara is the dancing maid of Harrenhal and she was dishonored there.

[LynnS]

7 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Exactly. Everything about Shadrich is literal. I assert that he is a red herring. His name is a herring and his hair is red. He's also literally the mystery knight and the laughing tree. He's also the literal flying mouse of Harrenhal. His parallel is basically a template for the other two.

I wonder if he was intended to be a red herring for the KotLT.  He is small enough to be a crannogman and his shield depicting the lands he has roamed and the rivers he's crossed; is pretty close to the crannogman oath swearing by earth and water.

 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

We have to keep and eye on Alayne I and II in TWoW. When it finally arrives I might go directly to those chapters.

Another parallel that gets a bit weird is Sweetrobin+Alayne and Aerys+Ashara

Sweetrobin has been isolated for a long time, more than a bit mad and travels to a tourney to name his personal guards. He is more than a bit touchy with Alayne. Aerys was also isolated, really mad and travels to a tourney where he will add Jamie to the KG. Ashara is the dancing maid of Harrenhal and she was dishonored there.

It sort of hints at Sansa being dishonored too. 

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Exactly. Everything about Shadrich is literal. I assert that he is a red herring. His name is a herring and his hair is red. He's also literally the mystery knight and the laughing tree. He's also the literal flying mouse of Harrenhal. His parallel is basically a template for the other two.

 

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I wonder if he was intended to be a red herring for the KotLT.  He is small enough to be a crannogman and his shield depicting the lands he has roamed and the rivers he's crossed; is pretty close to the crannogman oath swearing by earth and water.

 

I wonder how many layers this red herring cake has. The books start with a chapter where a shadow emerges from the trees and mocks Waymar

Quote

A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood

<...>

The Other said something in a language that Will did not know; his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking

The mocking tree, the laughing tree.

[Tucu]

10 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

It sort of hints at Sansa being dishonored too. 

Another case of dishonoring: Mercy as the laughing maiden is going to be raped by Bonobo as the Bloody Hand

Quote

“Stay away?” Mercy giggled. She was a giggly sort of girl, was Mercy. “No. I’ve got to get closer.” She gave Daena a squeeze and said, “If the Snapper comes looking for me, tell her that I went off to read my lines again.” She only had a few, and most were just, “Oh, no, no, no,” and “Don’t, oh don’t, don’t touch me,” and “Please, m’lord, I am still a maiden,” but this was the first time Izembaro had given her any lines at all, so it was only to be expected that poor Mercy would want to get them right.

 

[Melifeather]

1 minute ago, Tucu said:

Another case of dishonoring: Mercy as the maiden is going to be raped by Bonobo as the Bloody Hand

Yup. If Sansa gets “dishonored”, it could ruin Littlefinger’s plans. I wonder if Ashara’s “dishonoring” ruined anyone else’s plan?

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Tucu said:

Another case of dishonoring: Mercy as the laughing maiden is going to be raped by Bonobo as the Bloody Hand

 

I just caught what you’ve pointed out. The Bloody Hand! 

When I posted the parallels I deleted some comments regarding Tywin. In the Alayne chapter, Petyr is referred to as “the Lord Protector”. Wouldn’t Tywin Lannister have been King Aerys Lord Protector during the time of the Harrenhal tourney? I seem to recall that Tywin was even referred to as the Lord Protector of the realm during Joffrey’s reign after the Battle of the Blackwater. Are there any clues in the text that might suggest that Tywin took care of Ashara as a father figure since her parents seemed to be dead? Perhaps Tywin brought Ashara to court to cause unrest in Rhaegar’s marriage or make an alliance with some soon to be heir, but ended up taking her maidenhead instead?