Bernie Mac Posted July 31, 2021 Share Posted July 31, 2021 I don't think the Trial By Combat is a get out of jail free card. If someone is conclusively guilty, either being caught in the act or admitting to their guilt, then they don't get to ask for a trial to prove their innocence. Tyrion gets to call a trial because he is only thought to have killed Joffrey, but had he walked up to Joffrey and instead of handing him a drink he cut his throat then there would be no way he could ask for a trial to prove his innocence. That would just be chaos, men like the Mountain could do as they please. Similarly, Rickard feels like he can ask for a trial due to Aerys having no concrete evidence that he was conspiring against the Throne, but Brandon is not because he made his threat to the Crown Prince publicly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyser1 Posted August 1, 2021 Share Posted August 1, 2021 In short: -He already confessed to save his daughter. He did not expect to be executed and was probably pretty shocked. Not to mention being starved and sick from his wound - not thinking clearly. -His father did that, didn’t work out too well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted August 2, 2021 Author Share Posted August 2, 2021 10 hours ago, nyser1 said: He did not expect to be executed and was probably pretty shocked. Not to mention being starved and sick from his wound - not thinking clearly. Self preservation instincts and adrenaline exist in Planetos i hope 10 hours ago, nyser1 said: -His father did that, didn’t work out too well. Joff hadn't become Aerys...yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 On 7/30/2021 at 11:45 AM, The_Lone_Wolf said: It wouldn't take long to shout the words. Brienne had lesser time with LSH He was starving, delirious and taken completely by surprise. He could have, I suppose, but there was such a clamor that probably no one would have heard him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted August 2, 2021 Author Share Posted August 2, 2021 32 minutes ago, John Suburbs said: He was starving, delirious and taken completely by surprise. He could have, I suppose, but there was such a clamor that probably no one would have heard him. Like how this context and many others suited George's convenience, I guess he could've found some way around. Let me make it clear that I believe that Ned had to go for the plot to progress nicely, but a TBC would've and could've been more fun. It would have made the transition to slow-moving progress later in the series more seamless/less abrupt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 Again: after Eddard had confessed, he had no option to ask for trial by battle. It was too late. A trial by battle is a tool that only can be used to determine whether someone is guilty or not when there are doubts about the verdict. When someone has already confessed, this option is no longer available. And the fact that Eddard had been "tricked" to confess on false promises of a lenient sentence does not invalidate his confession. Not to mention that this was a secret deal with no witnesses or written proof. It's not an oversight from the author. It's not a plot contrivance. It's not a matter or Ned being too tired or surprised to act. It's just that it was not a viable option from any point of view. A confessed traitor does not get to demand trial by battle. Nor in Ned's case, nor in anyone else's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 On 8/2/2021 at 12:19 PM, The hairy bear said: Again: after Eddard had confessed, he had no option to ask for trial by battle. It was too late. A trial by battle is a tool that only can be used to determine whether someone is guilty or not when there are doubts about the verdict. When someone has already confessed, this option is no longer available. And the fact that Eddard had been "tricked" to confess on false promises of a lenient sentence does not invalidate his confession. Not to mention that this was a secret deal with no witnesses or written proof. It's not an oversight from the author. It's not a plot contrivance. It's not a matter or Ned being too tired or surprised to act. It's just that it was not a viable option from any point of view. A confessed traitor does not get to demand trial by battle. Nor in Ned's case, nor in anyone else's. Exactly. And like I said above, Ned could have asked for a TBC, and maybe he would have won. But Cersei would still have Sansa . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 On 8/2/2021 at 11:01 AM, The_Lone_Wolf said: Like how this context and many others suited George's convenience, I guess he could've found some way around. Let me make it clear that I believe that Ned had to go for the plot to progress nicely, but a TBC would've and could've been more fun. It would have made the transition to slow-moving progress later in the series more seamless/less abrupt It's not a plot convenience or anything else. How else would you expect Ned to be after spending weeks in utter darkness with a broken leg surviving on subsistence rations? If Ned had somehow survived, we'd all be saying how that was necessary for the plot to move forward from there. But Martin doesn't roll like that. Things happen because this is what would naturally happen given the characters and situations that have arisen, not just because he wants it to happen this way. Read his comments about being a gardener rather than an architect. And again, even if Ned asked for a TBC, that would not have ended well for Sansa. He was trapped. He had no choice but to confess and throw himself on the mercy of the court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted August 4, 2021 Author Share Posted August 4, 2021 41 minutes ago, John Suburbs said: It's not a plot convenience or anything else. How else would you expect Ned to be after spending weeks in utter darkness with a broken leg surviving on subsistence rations? If Ned had somehow survived, we'd all be saying how that was necessary for the plot to move forward from there. But Martin doesn't roll like that. Things happen because this is what would naturally happen given the characters and situations that have arisen, not just because he wants it to happen this way. Read his comments about being a gardener rather than an architect. His survival with zero treatment was a plot convenience in the first place lol 42 minutes ago, John Suburbs said: And again, even if Ned asked for a TBC, that would not have ended well for Sansa. As said earlier, only Joff and the lickspittle Slynt (Payne no tongue can't lick) abruptly planned to kill Ned, everone else incl the Lannisters say they'd have tried to prevent the ensuing chaos resulting from the death if they had the power. Grrm wanted the chaos, not the numerous characters who all had losses from their sides, some fewer some more relatively Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedog Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 Has any great lord in history actually gotten trial by combat for high treason? Lord Gormon Peake, Ser Otto Hightower, Lord Larys Strong, Rhaenyra, etc all got executed. I’m not even sure any of them even got a trial (maybe Larys, but Cregan Stark did not appear to care much for legal procedure). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springwatch Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 On 8/2/2021 at 5:19 PM, The hairy bear said: Again: after Eddard had confessed, he had no option to ask for trial by battle. It was too late. A trial by battle is a tool that only can be used to determine whether someone is guilty or not when there are doubts about the verdict. When someone has already confessed, this option is no longer available. And the fact that Eddard had been "tricked" to confess on false promises of a lenient sentence does not invalidate his confession. Not to mention that this was a secret deal with no witnesses or written proof. It's not an oversight from the author. It's not a plot contrivance. It's not a matter or Ned being too tired or surprised to act. It's just that it was not a viable option from any point of view. A confessed traitor does not get to demand trial by battle. Nor in Ned's case, nor in anyone else's. I agree. But I'd also say the confession wasn't essential - Cersei has Ned's letter to Stannis, so Ned is already proved to have conspired against Joffrey. Until Joffrey's own legitimacy is overturned, Ned stands condemned by his own words. What the confession adds is that Ned declares publicly that he knows Joffrey is the true king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 51 minutes ago, Thedog said: Has any great lord in history actually gotten trial by combat for high treason? Lord Gormon Peake, Ser Otto Hightower, Lord Larys Strong, Rhaenyra, etc all got executed. I’m not even sure any of them even got a trial (maybe Larys, but Cregan Stark did not appear to care much for legal procedure). Lyonel Baratheon as the rebel Storm King fought Dunk and lost (but lived) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted August 5, 2021 Share Posted August 5, 2021 On 7/30/2021 at 7:50 AM, Leonardo said: I don’t think there’s a fighter in all the north or riverlands I’d bet on to beat the mountain, who would certainly be the champion. At worst it’s Jaime, or the hound, and I’m not betting against them either. This wasn’t a valid route, and there wasn’t anyone in Kings landing who could stand for him if it had to be immediate either. I mean the Great Jon is pretty badass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted August 6, 2021 Share Posted August 6, 2021 On 8/4/2021 at 11:38 AM, The_Lone_Wolf said: His survival with zero treatment was a plot convenience in the first place lol As said earlier, only Joff and the lickspittle Slynt (Payne no tongue can't lick) abruptly planned to kill Ned, everone else incl the Lannisters say they'd have tried to prevent the ensuing chaos resulting from the death if they had the power. Grrm wanted the chaos, not the numerous characters who all had losses from their sides, some fewer some more relatively Of course he could survive. He was getting water and they were checking on him every day. His broken leg had already been set and wrapped by Pycelle. Now it seems like there is some infection, but nothing fatal. Cersei is not going to let her best hostage die in a cell. Regardless of who knew what when, the fact is that with Sansa in their possession, Ned had no choice but to confess and take the black. If he asked for a TBC, Sansa would have suffered for it. Is all of this contrived by Martin? He's the author so the entire story is his contrivance. But there is nothing unusual about Ned not asking for a TBC because this was the situation he was in: play ball or watch your daughter get hurt, badly. The whole scene is set so that it unfolded exactly as it should have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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