History in Books

[Zorral]

There are so many sections of Bret's blog I really like.  I suppose my favorite parts are his specialty of expertise, dealing with the military matters of the Ancient World, particularly, maybe, Rome's civil wars.

I did really appreciate his expertise in showing the utter preposterousness of the entire baggage train GOT show -- including right at the top the utter insanity of the premises of how much food is needed for a besieged city and why this baggage train COULD NOT POSSIBLY BE SUPPLYING IT, just starting with how much food the animals pulling the wagons needed, and how far they had to go and how much those wagons could carry -- and how many people are in the city. So even if this tonnage of food was taken mostly by water, it still would only be a crust of bread for the city's hunger.

As we know, effective military commanders, like Julius Caesar, Wellington and Napoleon, Grant and Sherman, really really really know this stuff, and put a lot of time into getting it right -- or appointing the right people who know this stuff too, oversee it.

Also how barbarian warriors don't wear clothes and are hairy and ugly, etc. showing with illustrations of Plains Tribes' and Steppe Tribes' horse peoples' beautifully worked clothing and other goods -- using the refrain, "Nomads like to look good and do their best to do so."  And how important trade cities and trade are to them. You certainly see this in the way the Mongols treated the cities they conquered that didn't resist (resisters were raised) -- going in for the organization that gave them most taxable income possible.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Zorral

[SeanF]

15 hours ago, Zorral said:

There are so many sections of Bret's blog I really like.  I suppose my favorite parts are his specialty of expertise, dealing with the military matters of the Ancient World, particularly, maybe, Rome's civil wars.

I did really appreciate his expertise in showing the utter preposterousness of the entire baggage train GOT show -- including right at the top the utter insanity of the premises of how much food is needed for a besieged city and why this baggage train COULD NOT POSSIBLY BE SUPPLYING IT, just starting with how much food the animals pulling the wagons needed, and how far they had to go and how much those wagons could carry -- and how many people are in the city. So even if this tonnage of food was taken mostly by water, it still would only be a crust of bread for the city's hunger.

As we know, effective military commanders, like Julius Caesar, Wellington and Napoleon, Grant and Sherman, really really really know this stuff, and put a lot of time into getting it right -- or appointing the right people who know this stuff too, oversee it.

Also how barbarian warriors don't wear clothes and are hairy and ugly, etc. showing with illustrations of Plains Tribes' and Steppe Tribes' horse peoples' beautifully worked clothing and other goods -- using the refrain, "Nomads like to look good and do their best to do so."  And how important trade cities and trade are to them. You certainly see this in the way the Mongols treated the cities they conquered that didn't resist (resisters were raised) -- going in for the organization that gave them most taxable income possible.

He's correct that Dothraki (and Fremen) societies are far too violent to survive, and that while tribal societies could be violent, an awful lot of effort went into providing alternatives to violence between their members, such as mediation by respected elders and seers, or ordering compensation for wrongs, in place of blood feuds.  Good warriors, and women of child-bearing age, are simply too valuable for such societies to waste.

[Zorral]

Diana Gabaldon, author of the Outlander time-travel-historical fiction series, talks.  Go Tell the Bees That I Am Gone, the 9th, the penultimate novel in the series, is just published,  (the previous, number 8, is (2014)My Own Heart's Blood (the television adaptation, for which she's a consultant, interrupted her fiction production). She's at work on number 10,  the final novel in the series.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/nov/23/outlander-tv-series-author-diana-gabaldon

[Zorral]

"Three new books scrutinize the reputations of some legendary warrior groups — the Spartans, the Vikings and the Spanish conquistadors."

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/23/books/review/myke-cole-the-bronze-lie.html

THE BRONZE LIE: Shattering the Myth of Spartan Warrior Supremacy (Osprey, $30), Myke Cole, concludes with, "Those who think people no longer care about history should consider this: Cole reports that his sharp skepticism about Spartan military prowess has provoked death threats against him."  Goes right along with Bret Devereaux's arguments!

MEN OF TERROR: A Comprehensive Analysis of Viking Combat (Westholme, $50) by William R. Short and Reynir A. Oskarson tell the reader these warriors actually did live up to their (historical) rep.

CONQUISTADORES: A New History of Spanish Discovery and Conquest (Viking, $35) by Fernando Cervantes attempts to rehabilitate the rep of the Spanish as cruel, ruthless, racial supremicists, maniacal plunderers and genocidal religious fanatics.  He fails, say the reviewer.  Considering what the reviewer cites, he fails particularly to convince when his 'arguments' are contrasted with the Conquistores'  history in the Africas and Americas in God’s Shadow: Sultan Selim, His Ottoman Empire and the Making of the Modern World by Alan Mikhail. Liveright, $39.95.  I am reading God's Shadow presently; it is knocking my (wool -- it got below freezing last night) sox off!

[Zorral]

A Net for Small Fishes by Lucy Jago, set the days shortly after James I succeeded Elizabeth I.

I'm about a third of the way into the novel; liking it quite a bit, once the author got past having the first person protagonist-narrator repeat on every page or so how intensely she cares about her children, just like "every mother does," and that "my children are the most important thing in my life.  I would give my life for my children."  Bits like this show this is a first novel.

"This gloriously immersive reimagining of a scandalous Jacobean murder trial traces a dangerous friendship between two women"

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/jan/28/a-net-for-small-fishes-by-lucy-jago-review-bravura-historical-debut
 

[LongRider]

I am revisiting this thread as I am nearing completion of The Masters of Rome series by Colleen Mccullough.  I'm on the next to last book, THE OCTOBER HORSE and know that in this book is where J. Ceasar meets his end.  What a story!   I realize this is fiction, but even so, it has peaked my interest in Ancient Rome and I already looking for a good nonfiction about J. Ceasar.   

I moved this fall and in my new city have found a great used bookstore, and of last week received my library card.  So, all is right in my world for books and reading.  

Off to the blog mentioned above to check it out.    

 

[Zorral]

Isn't it wonderful to have something that substantial for such a lovely, long period, into which one can submerge! 

The only other history series that are as long and immersive as McCullough -- and as piquing of the reader's ambition to learn more on their own regarding the fictions we've been reading -- are Sharon Kay Penman's Plantagenet series, which re-read I'll be concluding some time in the new year, as her books are as massive as are McCullough's -- and two French series -- Robert Merle's Fortune of France, featuring a fictional physician-spy- Huguenot, in the 16th C -- Queen Elizabeth enters, stage right at some point!, and of course, The Accursed Kings by Maurice Druon.  Druon's novels though, are a lot shorter than those of the other three.

For many readers though, I think they'd include Diana Gabaldon's Outlander series, though there is just too much graphic detail that goes on too long dealing with torture and and such, for this reader to immerse.  Particularly in These Times, though in many ways I quite admire what the author has accomplished, and enjoy very much what I can enjoy (though her Caribbean portrait is -- just historically dreadful.  As I know this stuff intimately, she really lost me there). But what I think/feel is neither here nor there for her dedicated readers -- and in These Times I'm glad they're having a new novel in the series and new addition to the television series in the new year too.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Zorral

[LongRider]

Several years ago I read several of the Accursed Kings but couldn’t finish as it was just too much for me.  

Read 1 1/2 of The Outlander books and that was enough too. 

Of Penman I’ve only read her Welsh trilogy and did enjoy it, so will put here Plantagenet series on the list. 
 

You Zorral, are the one who got me interested in historical fiction when you were discussing Mantel’s Wolf Hall series last year.  Talk about starting with the best, they were great!    So thanks for that. 

Well, I’m nearly at The Ides of March in my current book, gonna grit my teeth and get back to it.    

 

[Zorral]

I'm guessing the Fortunes of France would be more appealing to you than Druon's series. This is particularly so if one begins Druon's series with the first novel -- gosh that was harrowing. But that burning of Grand Master, Jacques de Molay, the siezure of the Templars' treasure, by Philip  IV, was a big marker in French history. Druon did a brilliant job of structuring The Accursed Kings, so, ya, he really did need to start with that.  It's so hard to read though -- and much worse to have experienced, and seen.  Whew!

[LongRider]

I don't know alot of history so am continually surprised by how violent and lawless people and societies could be.  Several years ago, I read a handful of books of the history of the French Revolution and was shocked at the bloodletting and extreme violence.   A bit naive of the world I guess, and of course in modern day there is plenty of it still.

In the current series, the Romans, rape, murder, plunder, war, and put people into slavery, and yet have a sophisticated society and government. Oh, and many of the elites of the Romans were so corrupt!  Part of what makes history so fascinating. 

 Well anyway, so glad I started reading historical fiction, opened new worlds for me and what I like about this thread is knowledgeable folks share some great suggestions.     

[LongRider]

On 11/18/2021 at 11:14 AM, Zorral said:

There are so many sections of Bret's blog I really like.  I suppose my favorite parts are his specialty of expertise, dealing with the military matters of the Ancient World, particularly, maybe, Rome's civil wars.

I checked out his blog and was enticed by his study of ancient grain farming; what was grown, by who and how it was harvested, marketed and even made into bread.  Found it to be very informative and interesting, will spend more time there for sure.    

[Zorral]

3 hours ago, LongRider said:

....ancient grain farming; what was grown, by who and how it was harvested, marketed and even made into bread. 

Not to mention that essential of any pretense toward civilization -- BEER, glorious beer!  (Though, to be honest, my drink is wine.)  

I liked his entry on textiles very much too.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Zorral

[Zorral]

Long ago, 1938 in fact, Robert Graves, who made the Empress Livia live forever, thanks to his character of Emperor Claudius, the BBC, and actor Derek Jacobi, way back in 1972, published an historical novel of another age, a different Rome, a newish religious era, titled Count Belisarius. For newcomers to these times, Commander Belisarius, is an historically lauded general of the 6th C -- 505 - 565. These are part of the times that historians have called Europe's "Dark Ages." This is the century that has been the favorite chronological location for Britain's King Arthur.

Imma looking this novel and thinking, hmm, so readable, and so very different from what the current historians of his time and actions I've been reading for the last ten years.  This was another effective military commander badly treated by fearful, jealous Byzantine emperors. But even so, Graves seems to be shockingly wrong, deliberately or otherwise, about much of even the small, basic stuff we do know about the Commander.  Partly that is due to depending on Procopius as his major source -- as do all, of course -- but Procopius is infamous for all the axes he grinds in his Secret History, his prejudices, his personal antagonisms, his conscious pay-back and sheer malicious joy in blackening reputations -- oooo how he hated the Empress Theodora!

It's been a bright spot in this damned Omicron and insane politicos etc. weeks, to feel I've finally gotten something of a handle on the Gothic and Hun wars of the 5th century, and some of the 6th century, for both the western and the eastern empires (which, by the end of the 5th century, the western empire can hardly or at all be considered to exist any longer). 

I'm really understanding how many archaeologists and historians have said, "Be grateful you were not born in the 6th, 7th -- a century that brought Bubonic Plague to Constantinople and Europe, among all the other ordeals and horrors -- and 8th centuries -- though honestly, for So Many, the 5th and 9th + centuries don't look all that good either.

I'm trying to get a firmer grip on the Goths in the Danubian lands, Italy, Africa, Gaul and Iberia prior to the Arab explosion in the 7th century. So dark, i.e. the written information is scarce.

I do not think I shall ever get even a slippery grip on the Persians -- there were so many iterations of the Persians, starting so far back, and going on for many eras.  So very very VERY many eras. To this day so many in Iran speak Farsi-Persian, as well as speakers of Dari Persian throughout Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Edited January 5, 2022 by Zorral

[Wilbur]

19 hours ago, Zorral said:

Long ago, 1938 in fact, Robert Graves, who made the Empress Livia live forever, thanks to his character of Emperor Claudius, the BBC, and actor Derek Jacobi, way back in 1972, published an historical novel of another age, a different Rome, a newish religious era, titled Count Belisarius. For newcomers to these times, Commander Belisarius, is an historically lauded general of the 6th C -- 505 - 565. These are part of the times that historians have called Europe's "Dark Ages." This is the century that has been the favorite chronological location for Britain's King Arthur.

Imma looking this novel and thinking, hmm, so readable, and so very different from what the current historians of his time and actions I've been reading for the last ten years.  This was another effective military commander badly treated by fearful, jealous Byzantine emperors. But even so, Graves seems to be shockingly wrong, deliberately or otherwise, about much of even the small, basic stuff we do know about the Commander.  Partly that is due to depending on Procopius as his major source -- as do all, of course -- but Procopius is infamous for all the axes he grinds in his Secret History, his prejudices, his personal antagonisms, his conscious pay-back and sheer malicious joy in blackening reputations -- oooo how he hated the Empress Theodora!

I own (thank you, Half-Price Books' discount and clearance rack!) and have read Count Belisarius twice over the years.  Graves is a good writer, but I am right there with you on the historical inaccuracies and anachronisms.  Graves' style was enough to get me to read it through a second time, but even so I regard it on my shelf with some residual suspicion.

[Zorral]

3 hours ago, Wilbur said:

I own (thank you, Half-Price Books' discount and clearance rack!) and have read Count Belisarius twice over the years.  Graves is a good writer, but I am right there with you on the historical inaccuracies and anachronisms.  Graves' style was enough to get me to read it through a second time, but even so I regard it on my shelf with some residual suspicion.

 

  

Considering I've re-read the Claudius novels more than twice, it's odd I've never read this one. Of course in the years I discovered Claudius I wouldn't have known from historical inaccuracy, etc. about anything in those books either, much less this book in a later era!

I'm starting to guess Gore Vidal's Julian (the Apostate) - 1964, and Robert Harris's Cicero Trilogy, were influenced by Belisarius, particularly with Vidal's structure, and Harris's choice for narrator.  But I don't know, of course.

I'm enjoying switching off between Belisarius and Banville's April in Spain, a Quirke mystery, which I'll mention in the  Mysteries etc. thread when I finish. 

[HoodedCrow]

The real Livia was probably not as interesting!

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, HoodedCrow said:

The real Livia was probably not as interesting!

 

Well, she did manage to become a divinity.   

Edited January 6, 2022 by Zorral

[A wilding]

Just read a biography of the extraordinary life of Svetlana Alliluyeva, Stalin's Daughter by Rosemary Sullivan. An apt title, as Svetlana clearly never managed to escape that label, despite her efforts. It had been on my list ever since I saw The Death of Stalin.

This was a difficult read, as her life was a very unhappy one, and her troubles were far from over when she defected to the US in 1967. However it is also a tribute to human resilience, as she was only damaged by her experiences, not broken like her brother. She just kept going through it all and perhaps gained some sort of peace by the end of her long life. So I would recommend this book to anyone who might be interested in her.

I also found it a little weird that for me the book started as history (the Stalin era) but then moved on to events in my lifetime (she was still a cold war political pawn in the Reagan/Gorbachev era). I was somewhat disconcerted to discover that she spent two years living in Cambridge in the UK at the same time that I was doing my degree there. It is likely that I unknowingly walked or cycled past her in the street!

 

 

[LongRider]

I posted this in the Fourth Quarter 2021 thread and am posting here as well.  Reading historical fiction is new for me and thanks to this board and its excellent suggestions, I've been able to read good ones.  Historical fiction isn't history, but if it is based in facts, one can still learn from them, plus, HF can lead to reading actual history. 

 

Quote

Finished the Masters of Rome series, seven fictional history books about the fall if the Roman Republic and the genesis of the Roman Empire.  I don't know much about this subject but did learn alot about Ancient Rome even though this was fiction.  First is, I've underlined the word Republic in the first sentence because I now have a basic understanding of the difference between the Roman Republic and the Roman Empire.  The slide from Republic to Empire was not a sudden event and though this series aren't the books for in depth analysis, it is a place to start. 

Politics in the Roman Senate could apparently get pretty wild, and saw not only brilliant oration, but fist fights, riots and murder!  Their system had become very corrupt, just about anything could be bought, Senators, votes, and governorships among many others.  I also didn't know until this series that Rome suffered through many civil wars, a surprise to me. 

The class system was alive and well and attempts to give the lower/lowest classes such things as improved voting rights, expand Roman citizenship, and land reform for settling retired veteran soldiers on land, were by some, considered very radical and fought very hard against.  Also, slavery was a part of the society and captured peoples were sold into slavery if they weren't killed first.  Brutal. 

This book was about the ruling class and elites, and misogyny was a way of life in these classes.   Daughters were married off for political gain, and women with rich dowries were attractive for their money. Women couldn't vote, they couldn't divorce, but could be divorced and weren't allowed to work.  The classism and misogyny were quite complex and interesting to read about.  

Colleen McCullough's writing and storytelling were overall very good, however, her gushing over Julis Caeser did get a bit tiring.  I definitely recommend this series.

 

 

 

 

 

[Zorral]

6 hours ago, A wilding said:

I also found it a little weird that for me the book started as history (the Stalin era) but then moved on to events in my lifetime (she was still a cold war political pawn in the Reagan/Gorbachev era).

That could be disconcerting indeed -- making it so obvious that time is moving on. As time will!

13 minutes ago, LongRider said:

The classism and misogyny were quite complex and interesting to read about.  

And particularly the endless attempts to limit actual Roman citizenship -- which incidentally was still playing out in Constantinople during the first century and a half, of what is usually labeled the "collapse" of the Roman Empire and the beginning of the Dark Ages.  Another sort of lesson we seem never to learn from history!