David Selig Posted October 9, 2021 Share Posted October 9, 2021 4 hours ago, fionwe1987 said: Elayne and Rand is what I don't get. Not that they were attracted and spent some time together. Just that that turned to deep abiding love..based on what, exactly? Sanderson tried to explain it with his usual complete lack of subtleness. Quote Their love was born of the things they shared. With Elayne, he could speak of politics and the burden of rule. She understood. She truly did, better than anyone he knew. She knew what it was to make decisions that changed the lives of thousands. She understood what it was to be owned by the people of a nation. I don't buy this at all, seems like a clear retcon. But Sanderson for some reason massively elevated the importance of the few pieces of advice on governing that Elayne gave to Rand in the last 3 days of their stay in the Stone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fionwe1987 Posted October 9, 2021 Share Posted October 9, 2021 1 hour ago, David Selig said: Sanderson tried to explain it with his usual complete lack of subtleness. I don't buy this at all, seems like a clear retcon. But Sanderson for some reason massively elevated the importance of the few pieces of advice on governing that Elayne gave to Rand in the last 3 days of their stay in the Stone. Ugh I'd forgotten this scene. Probably on purpose. But this is nonsense, yeah. He could just as likely think this of Egwene. More, actually, because just like him, she didn't get trained to govern, and had to learn while being pulled around like a puppet. Not that I'm calling for Rand to reunite with Egwene. But he honestly has more reason to rekindle things with her than to continue to love Elayne after all that happened between their meeting in the Stone and this scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fionwe1987 Posted October 9, 2021 Share Posted October 9, 2021 Well I certainly hope this is true, and that the actual scene flows a lot better! The WoT investigative fandom seems to be slowly coming back to life. I'm excited by that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A True Kaniggit Posted October 9, 2021 Share Posted October 9, 2021 19 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said: Ugh I'd forgotten this scene. Probably on purpose. But this is nonsense, yeah. He could just as likely think this of Egwene. More, actually, because just like him, she didn't get trained to govern, and had to learn while being pulled around like a puppet. Not that I'm calling for Rand to reunite with Egwene. But he honestly has more reason to rekindle things with her than to continue to love Elayne after all that happened between their meeting in the Stone and this scene. Egwene never taught Rand politics. Are you mixing her up with Moraine’s months of teachings in the waste? Though I agree the Elayne/Rand relationship always was, always is, and always will be ridiculous. Should we do a break down? Rand fell into Elayne's garden. They met and were around each other for like 40 minutes at best. They see each other for a few weeks on Toman's head. They hang out for a couple months in Tear. He gets her pregnant after one night in Caemlyn. They sleep together once more right before the Last Battle. Sounds like love to me ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fionwe1987 Posted October 9, 2021 Share Posted October 9, 2021 24 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said: Egwene never taught Rand politics. Where did I say she did? I said she shared the same burdens and understanding of political costs that Rand did, which is what he's talking about as the basis of his relationship with Elayne. 24 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said: Are you mixing her up with Moraine’s months of teachings in the waste? No. Though it's go be noted Egwene sat in for most of those. And Egwene being Egwene, I highly doubt she sat quietly if she had a question. I think RJ missed the chance to show them learning together, but we know it happened. 24 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said: Though I agree the Elayne/Rand relationship always was, always is, and always will be ridiculous. Should we do a break down? Rand fell into Elayne's garden. They met and were around each other for like 40 minutes at best. They see each other for a few weeks on Toman's head. Few hours. Elayne is gone with Verin by the time Rand wakes up from his injuries. 24 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said: They hang out for a couple months in Tear. He gets her pregnant after one night in Caemlyn. They sleep together once more right before the Last Battle. Sounds like love to me ? Yeah. It's fine if you say they're attracted but never got the chance to fully explore their relationship. It's bizarre to claim they're in deep love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted October 9, 2021 Share Posted October 9, 2021 It's even worse than that, on Toman's head Elayne had to leave for Tar Valon while Rand was still unconscious so they never had a real meeting. In Tear they only really interacted in the last 3 days of their stay. I actually like their first meetings, the one in EOTW is a classic meet cute, the Book 4 one is a pretty good depiction of puppy love. But after that the whole thing becomes a mess. It bugged me that in AMOL Sanderson had Rand saying several times how Elayne taught him so much about leadership and politics while never mentioning Moiraine's contribution which was far greater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fionwe1987 Posted October 9, 2021 Share Posted October 9, 2021 Just now, David Selig said: It's even worse than that, on Toman's head Elayne had to leave for Tar Valon while Rand was still unconscious so they never had a real meeting. In Tear they only really interacted in the last 3 days of their stay. I actually like their first meetings, the one in EOTW is a classic meet cute, The Book 4 one is a pretty good depiction of puppy love. But after that the whole thing becomes a mess. It bugged me that in AMOL Sanderson had Rand saying several times how Elayne taught him so much about leadership and politics while never mentioning Moiraine's contribution which was far greater. Yes. And Thom, who taught him more in Tear than Elayne did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gertrude Posted October 9, 2021 Share Posted October 9, 2021 Each of the women in Rand's life had an important part to play and was what he needed at the time their relationship formed. So yeah, Elayne and Rand was a good pair for the beginning of Rand's journey. Aviendha taught him what he needed to know about the Aiel and bond him to their people. Min was the steadying influence and comfort he needed while also being a partner in piecing together his role in all this while he had to deal with the bullshit politics of it all. I love all of the women in these roles. I just don't love that the Elayne and Aviendha romances outlive their usefulness and add nothing more to the story in a meaningful way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fionwe1987 Posted October 9, 2021 Share Posted October 9, 2021 26 minutes ago, Gertrude said: Each of the women in Rand's life had an important part to play and was what he needed at the time their relationship formed. So yeah, Elayne and Rand was a good pair for the beginning of Rand's journey. Aviendha taught him what he needed to know about the Aiel and bond him to their people. Min was the steadying influence and comfort he needed while also being a partner in piecing together his role in all this while he had to deal with the bullshit politics of it all. I love all of the women in these roles. I just don't love that the Elayne and Aviendha romances outlive their usefulness and add nothing more to the story in a meaningful way. Maybe that's the way out for the show. Have these early parts of the relationship happen, then Elayne and Aviendha bond and realize they mean more to each other than Rand does to them. It's ok to have earlier relationships, then move on, no need for fights or bitterness. It could work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IFR Posted October 9, 2021 Author Share Posted October 9, 2021 It's best to wait until the series is released before rendering judgement, but that clip was kind of a cringey mess. Everything is so dramatic. It felt like a spiritual successor to The Shannara Chronicles. Fairly smooth production value attempting to mask awkward directing and acting. I mean, I still am hoping for the best. But Amazon released that clip with the impression that it would encourage people to watch the show. Not a good sign. On another note, why are people opposed to platonic relationships? Elaine and Aviendha had good chemistry as friends communicating across cultural barriers. It was good as presented. Sex is not going to make that relationship more interesting. On the contrary, it will probably nuke the relationship into a soppy mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted October 9, 2021 Share Posted October 9, 2021 Almost every trailer and promo clip of mainstream movies and TV shows is overdramatic, it's what the marketing in the industry seem to demand, so I don't think this tells us much about the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gertrude Posted October 9, 2021 Share Posted October 9, 2021 26 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said: Maybe that's the way out for the show. Have these early parts of the relationship happen, then Elayne and Aviendha bond and realize they mean more to each other than Rand does to them. It's ok to have earlier relationships, then move on, no need for fights or bitterness. It could work. This is kind of how I'd always imagined it. I don't care if Avi and Elayne become a couple, but yeah - just move on from one relationship to the next. If Avi and Elayne do hook up, but Elayne wants heirs, I'm also not opposed to Rand being the father - that makes sense in this world and for the characters. Tam needs grandbabies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A True Kaniggit Posted October 9, 2021 Share Posted October 9, 2021 2 minutes ago, Gertrude said: This is kind of how I'd always imagined it. I don't care if Avi and Elayne become a couple, but yeah - just move on from one relationship to the next. If Avi and Elayne do hook up, but Elayne wants heirs, I'm also not opposed to Rand being the father - that makes sense in this world and for the characters. Tam needs grandbabies! But that makes no sense for channelers. A matter that was never addressed in the books. Elayne became queen around 20. She can expect to rule for at least 400 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fionwe1987 Posted October 9, 2021 Share Posted October 9, 2021 49 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said: But that makes no sense for channelers. A matter that was never addressed in the books. Elayne became queen around 20. She can expect to rule for at least 400 years. that's her projected lifespan (actually that's a whole lot higher, almost 700 years). Not her actual age, guaranteed regardless of circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A True Kaniggit Posted October 10, 2021 Share Posted October 10, 2021 24 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said: that's her projected lifespan (actually that's a whole lot higher, almost 700 years). Not her actual age, guaranteed regardless of circumstances. Yeah. Don't most monarchs rule until death? The 400 years is what I say with the 3 oaths. It would be more without them. Edit: Hey! I had this baby when I was 20. She's my heir and will take over for me as queen when I die at age 720. She'll only be 700 years old. (Assuming my child can also channel. If not, I guess my great, great, great, great, great, however many greats later granddaughter will just have to take over for me.) I really hope she didn't get tired of waiting and had me murdered before then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IFR Posted October 10, 2021 Author Share Posted October 10, 2021 1 hour ago, David Selig said: Almost every trailer and promo clip of mainstream movies and TV shows is overdramatic, it's what the marketing in the industry seem to demand, so I don't think this tells us much about the show. I don't generally watch these clips, so maybe you are right. Out of curiosity, I checked out some of the preview clips for Game of Thrones. One is linked below. Good production values, excellent acting, and overall well done. In a very brief time it develops the characters and story, and is straight up endearing. If I saw this without being familiar with the material I would certainly would be interested. Wrt Wheel of Time, I'm only interested because I'm familiar with the material. What we've been presented with so far is extremely cheesy. Game of Thrones season 1 clip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fionwe1987 Posted October 10, 2021 Share Posted October 10, 2021 1 hour ago, A True Kaniggit said: Yeah. Don't most monarchs rule until death? The 400 years is what I say with the 3 oaths. It would be more without them. Edit: Hey! I had this baby when I was 20. She's my heir and will take over for me as queen when I die at age 720. She'll only be 700 years old. (Assuming my child can also channel. If not, I guess my great, great, great, great, great, however many greats later granddaughter will just have to take over for me.) I really hope she didn't get tired of waiting and had me murdered before then! Well the answer to that is to abdicate early. Not avoid having heirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceChampion Posted October 10, 2021 Share Posted October 10, 2021 I wonder who's body they'll use for "Moridin". This is a book spoilers thread but I'll keep it vague, since who I'm talking about doesn't matter to my point: It'll be kind of weird to see a major hero in that body when it's hosted a major villain for several seasons. I was thinking if the original person in that body is a new walk-on character created just for the show, would it be better for the audience that that character is actually a well-liked person or would that make it even creepier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A True Kaniggit Posted October 10, 2021 Share Posted October 10, 2021 20 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said: Well the answer to that is to abdicate early. Not avoid having heirs. But that doesn’t solve the problem. What happens when 200 years down the line a shitty monarch is ruining the country? Do the multiple previous monarchs that are still alive just sit aside and do nothing? What about 400 years down the line when a ruler decides not to abdicate(I’m being generous, it wouldn’t take that long) These people live for hundreds of years. They could have dozens of children competing for the throne. Honestly, I think there is a reason that in 3,000 years all rulers who were openly Aes Sedai came to a bad end in this world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted October 10, 2021 Share Posted October 10, 2021 Even if they abdicate early there's still a lot of potential for them still being alive to cause complications to the ongoing throne. Prior monarchs are a huge threat if say, 5 generations down the line (assuming the heirs didn't also inherit channeling, I forgot how reliable it was?) there's a failure of heirs and a new family takes the throne in a soft coup of sorts. But you've still got the old Queen who was the matriarch of the old line alive, well and unimpressed. That's not bad world building, on the contrary it's an excellent opportunity for drama - it just didn't get explored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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