Heresy 239: Reflections

[Melifeather]

32 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I haven't read any of those novels.  I finished reading Hillary Mantel's Wolf Hall Trilogy.  The historical fiction of Thomas Cromwell.  It's fantastic.  Also made into a TV series which I didn't see.  I'm currently reading Mentats of Dune.

 

 

One of Follet's novels is set during Elizabeth versus Mary after Henry VIII's death. This Wolf trilogy sounds like it'd fit in my wheelhouse!

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

One of Follet's novels is set during Elizabeth versus Mary after Henry VIII's death. This Wolf trilogy sounds like it'd fit in my wheelhouse!

I enjoyed Follet's novels.  You would enjoy Hillary Mantel.  The narrator of her story is Thomas Cromwell.  The voice she creates for him is fascinating as well as his history.

Wolf Hall Chapter Summaries | Course Hero  

[Tucu]

5 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Has anyone read and enjoyed either Mark Lawrence or Joe Abercrombie? 

I enjoyed Abercrombie's First Law trilogy. Logen and Glokta are fantastic POV characters. I will eventually get to read his new Age of Madness trilogy in the same universe but I got into Malazan and Broken Earth so it will be while.

[LongRider]

6 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Has anyone read and enjoyed either Mark Lawrence or Joe Abercrombie? 

I read Abercrombie, ultimately though, he surpassed my tolerance for torture and violence, so I stopped reading him. YMMV so if you’re interested, give him a try. 

[LongRider]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

The historical fiction of Thomas Cromwell.  It's fantastic.  Also made into a TV series which I didn't see. 

I found the DVD’s for the TV series at my local library and they were very good.  The series only covered Wolf Hall and was well done. 

[LynnS]

On 11/24/2021 at 5:08 AM, Black Crow said:

Very interesting, but not exactly surprising...

Basically, as we miserable heretics have long argued, fan-fiction took over - and that fan-fiction is being refuted.

It's getting one hell of a beating.

Add to that GRRM's comment from "Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon", that Littlefinger would never have put Sansa in harms way with someone like Ramsey Bolton in the manner portrayed by the show.  It was more a case of what would happen if they put two characters together.  What would give the show it's biggest audience reaction.  It's not story-telling, it's button pushing.  They certainly played off and hyped their meeting at Santa Fe to imply that they knew more than they were actually told.  It's more likely that GRRM had strong reservations about revealing anything important.  Bryan Cogman's comment (Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon) that what was revealed at Santa Fe was mind blowing is probably bullshit.   

[LynnS]

I'm starting to feel like Frey Family Reunion.  That the timing of the publication of these books would fit into the category "Signs and Portents".

I consider negative comments on GRRM's twitter account, a kind of weather vane.   

[Black Crow]

46 minutes ago, LynnS said:

It's getting one hell of a beating.

Add to that GRRM's comment from "Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon", that Littlefinger would never have put Sansa in harms way with someone like Ramsey Bolton in the manner portrayed by the show.  It was more a case of what would happen if they put two characters together.  What would give the show it's biggest audience reaction.  It's not story-telling, it's button pushing.  They certainly played off and hyped their meeting at Santa Fe to imply that they knew more than they were actually told.  It's more likely that GRRM had strong reservations about revealing anything important.  Bryan Cogman's comment (Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon) that what was revealed at Santa Fe was mind blowing is probably bullshit.   

Yes, at the risk of sounding tedious, my objection to to R+L=J wasn't that it was inherently unlikely in itself, but rather where those fans supporting the theory wanted to go with it. The Mummers gave them what they wanted...

[Black Crow]

18 hours ago, LynnS said:

It's getting one hell of a beating.

 They certainly played off and hyped their meeting at Santa Fe to imply that they knew more than they were actually told.  It's more likely that GRRM had strong reservations about revealing anything important.  Bryan Cogman's comment (Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon) that what was revealed at Santa Fe was mind blowing is probably bullshit.   

"mind blowing" because it totally overturned the fan fiction storylines they were working on ?

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

"mind blowing" because it totally overturned the fan fiction storylines they were working on ?

I'd say so.  And yet I don't know how much of what Cogburn said was hyperbole.  In the interview posted upthread, he's really hyping what he did with the story.  The self-congratulatory tone was a turn off.  Along with his dismissal of fans as a cult.  I don't give him much credit at this point.  I think Martin know when things are getting oily.   And when to make a retreat.

[LynnS]

On the subject of the Dusky Woman, we know from the Foresaken chapter, that Euron is collecting wizards and various holy men.  It seems this has something to do with sorcery and the power of holy blood.  So I wonder if the Dusky Woman falls into the category of God's wife, like Mirri Maz Duur.  This might speak to the elusive text that her blood is smeared on Dragonbinder.

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

On the subject of the Dusky Woman, we know from the Foresaken chapter, that Euron is collecting wizards and various holy men.  It seems this has something to do with sorcery and the power of holy blood.  So I wonder if the Dusky Woman falls into the category of God's wife, like Mirri Maz Duur.  This might speak to the elusive text that her blood is smeared on Dragonbinder.

My approach would be to look for historical parallels to the Dusky Woman in order to make educated guesses as to what we might expect. I think I've identified two women from the past who previously played the role of the "Dusky Woman".

“Dusky” is a euphemistic or poetic reference to black or somewhat dark-skinned people, but the blood smeared over her body seems to mirror Shiera Seastar, because of the rumors that she bathed in the blood of maidens to retain her beauty. Shiera was a renowned beauty and seductress, with long Targaryen silver-gold hair, a heart shaped face, and two mismatched eyes - one blue, the other green - which only seemed to enhance her beauty. She was also known to wear a heavy silver necklace with alternating blue sapphires and green emeralds to compliment her unusual eyes.

The Dusky Woman's washing of Victarion's wound with vinegar seems to be a literal replication of the sting Bittersteel must have felt when Shiera ended their affair and chose Bloodraven.

Euron had cut out the Dusky Woman's tongue. The tongue is a very special part of the body. It allows for communication, lovemaking, spitting, eating, and many other essential activities. It is perhaps the most personal part of the human body, more personal than even your genitals. If you dream about getting your tongue cut out it means that you have said too much to someone you know about something, or said something inappropriate. I think the fact that the Dusky Woman is missing her tongue is intended to make us wonder if Shiera - either intentionally or unintentionally - passed some secret to Bittersteel about Bloodraven that angered him since Euron - the stand in for Bloodraven - is the one that cut it out. Euron understands something from the past and is going to make sure he doesn’t repeat Bloodraven’s mistake by allowing his "Shiera" (Dusky Woman) to speak.

The lost tongue also symbolizes the story of Serala, the Lace Serpent, and Lady Darklyn of Duskendale.

The Darklyns are now extinct due to the Defiance of Duskendale which took place during the reign of King Aerys II when, according to the smallfolk, Lord Denys Darklyn was convinced by his wife, Lady Serala of Myr, to take King Aerys II captive. 

During the imprisonment of the king, the master-at-arms of the Dun Fort, Ser Symon Hollard, slew Ser Gwayne Gaunt of the Kingsguard. The Hand of the King, Lord Tywin Lannister, assembled an army that could easily storm the town, but Lord Denys threatened to kill Aerys if Tywin attacked. Aerys was held prisoner for half a year with Tywin’s army waiting outside Duskendale. 

The situation was at a stalemate until Ser Barristan Selmy stole into the Dun Fort and rescued the king. Having lost his hostage, Lord Denys had no choice but to surrender. He bent the knee and begged for mercy, but the king demanded his head and those of all his family. Lady Serala, called the Lace Serpent for the poison of her words, was burned alive after her tongue and female parts were torn out which were blamed for enslaving her lord husband.

GRRM often reveals his secrets in threes. Serala was executed, because of the "poison" of her words. Shiera may have poisoned Bloodraven and Bittersteel against each other.  But Euron took steps to make sure the Dusky Woman won't give away any of his secrets or speak poisonous words against him to Victarion.
 

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

GRRM often reveals his secrets in threes. Serala was executed, because of the "poison" of her words. Shiera may have poisoned Bloodraven and Bittersteel against each other.  But Euron took steps to make sure the Dusky Woman won't give away any of his secrets or speak poisonous words against him to Victarion.

That's an interesting perspective.  I was thinking that Euron removes their tongues so they can't use their voices for sorcery or incantation.  Remembering what Mel says about the power of her word and her voice. 

[Melifeather]

20 minutes ago, LynnS said:

That's an interesting perspective.  I was thinking that Euron removes their tongues so they can't use their voices for sorcery or incantation.  Remembering what Mel says about the power of her word and her voice. 

Sorcery is another connection between the three. 

Serala - the "Lace Serpent" (another tongue reference) - was from Myr - a city known for its temples and shrines as well as its bastard-sounding Valyrian dialect which is described as "sultry". And Shiera - there are rumors she used sorcery to aid Bloodraven.

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A Feast for Crows - Brienne II

"A little." Her own maester used to say that it was the Defiance of Duskendale that had driven King Aerys mad.

"In Duskendale they love Lord Denys still, despite the woe he brought them. 'Tis Lady Serala that they blame, his Myrish wife. The Lace Serpent, she is called. If Lord Darklyn had only wed a Staunton or a Stokeworth . . . well, you know how smallfolk will go on. The Lace Serpent filled her husband's ear with Myrish poison, they say, until Lord Denys rose against his king and took him captive. In the taking, his master-at-arms Ser Symon Hollard cut down Ser Gwayne Gaunt of the Kingsguard. For half a year Aerys was held within these very walls, whilst the King's Hand sat outside Duskendale with a mighty host. Lord Tywin had sufficient strength to storm the town any time he wished, but Lord Denys sent word that at the first sign of assault he'd kill the king."

 

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aerys I

It has been suggested by some that a likelier cause for Bloodraven's rise to power was the fact that Aerys's interest in arcane lore and ancient history matched that of Rivers, whose studies of the higher mysteries were an open secret at the time. Bloodraven had already risen to prominence at the court, but few expected that Aerys would name him Hand. When he did, it kindled a quarrel between the king and his brother, Prince Maekar, who had expected the Handship to come to him. Thereafter Prince Maekar departed King's Landing for Summerhall for years to come.

Bloodraven proved to be a capable Hand, but also a master of whisperers who rivaled Lady Misery, and there were those who thought he and his half sister and paramour, Shiera Seastar, used sorcery to ferret out secrets. It became common to refer to his "thousand eyes and one," and men both high and low began to distrust their neighbor for fear of their being a spy in Bloodraven's employ. Yet Aerys had need of spies, given the trouble that followed the Great Spring Sickness. Summer came, and with it a drought that lasted more than two years. Many blamed the king, and many more accused Bloodraven. There were poor brothers who preached treason, and knights and lords as well. And amongst those were some who whispered a specific treason: that the Black Dragon must return from across the narrow sea and take his rightful place.

 

 

[asongofheresy]

I actually don't believe Bittersteel had an affair with Shiera, and I don't think Daemon's love for Daenerys were ever something serious, both can be fabricated by Targaryen supporters 

[Melifeather]

I'm anxious to see what happens to the Dusky Woman, because little is known about what happened to Shiera after Bloodraven went to the Wall. Lady Serala Darklyn was executed - burned alive (like a witch) - which brings to mind the way Mirri died in Drogo's funeral pyre. You'd think we would have read something about Shiera's death, but no details have been given. We only know that she was still alive in 211, because Egg brought up Shiera in a conversation with Dunk:

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The Sworn Sword

That was insolent, but true. "Might be I don't know any highborn ladies, but I know a boy who's asking for a good clout in the ear." Dunk rubbed the back of his neck. A day in chainmail always left it hard as wood. "You've known queens and princesses. Did they dance with demons and practice the black arts?"

"Lady Shiera does. Lord Bloodraven's paramour. She bathes in blood to keep her beauty. And once my sister Rhae put a love potion in my drink, so I'd marry her instead of my sister Daella."

Egg spoke as if such incest was the most natural thing in the world. For him it is. The Targaryens had been marrying brother to sister for hundreds of years, to keep the blood of the dragon pure. Though the last actual dragon had died before Dunk was born, the dragonkings went on. Maybe the gods don't mind them marrying their sisters. "Did the potion work?" Dunk asked.

 

Egg uses the present tense "does" so she was alive at that time. 

Daenerys burned Mirri alive as punishment for tricking her into giving the life of her child for a chance at bringing back Drogo to what he once was, but maybe burning a witch is important in making a magic spell work?

 

[Melifeather]

2 minutes ago, asongofheresy said:

I actually don't believe Bittersteel had an affair with Shiera, and I don't think Daemon's love for Daenerys were ever something serious, both can be fabricated by Targaryen supporters 

Perhaps nothing that spells it out plainly, but plenty of inferences. George said Shiera had several lovers and that she enjoyed making Bloodraven jealous:

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So Spake Martin 3/7/2006 regarding Shiera:

Though she never wed, she had many offers, and several lovers through the years. Duels were fought over the right to sit beside her, men killed themselves after falling from her favor, poets outdid each other writing songs about her beauty. Her most ardent admirer was her half-brother, Bloodraven, who proposed marriage to her half a hundred times. Shiera gave him her bed, but never her hand. It amused her more to make him jealous.

 

There was a well-known rivalry between the brothers for their sister's affections:

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aegon IV

She died giving birth to the last of the king's bastard children, a girl called Shiera Seastar who became the greatest beauty in the Seven Kingdoms, beloved of both her half brothers, Bittersteel and Bloodraven, whose rivalry would ripen to hatred.

 

Barristan Selmy compared Bloodraven's and Bittersteel's love for and rivalry over Shiera to Daenerys love for Daario:

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A Dance with Dragons - The Kingbreaker

"She will weep and tear her hair and curse the Yunkai'i. Not us. No blood on our hands. You can comfort her. Tell her some tale of the old days, she likes those. Poor Daario, her brave captain … she will never forget him, no … but better for all of us if he is dead, yes? Better for Daenerys too."

Better for Daenerys, and for Westeros. Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled. The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses. All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father's wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief.

 

 

[LynnS]

44 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Daenerys burned Mirri alive as punishment for tricking her into giving the life of her child for a chance at bringing back Drogo to what he once was, but maybe burning a witch is important in making a magic spell work?

Yes, she did sacrifice her to the fire perhaps without understanding what she was doing specifically..  Then Dany sees a vision of MMD burning in the HoU, with a dragon bursting from her head.   MMD qualifies as holy blood, self-identifies as a god's wife.  From the Foresaken chapter we learn about Euron's plan to use holy blood and the reason he is capturing wizards, sorcerers and priests.  That seems to inform what happened with MMD.

[Melifeather]

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes, she did sacrifice her to the fire perhaps without understanding what she was doing specifically..  Then Dany sees a vision of MMD burning in the HoU, with a dragon bursting from her head.   MMD qualifies as holy blood, self-identifies as a god's wife.  From the Foresaken chapter we learn about Euron's plan to use holy blood and the reason he is capturing wizards, sorcerers and priests.  That seems to inform what happened with MMD.

And perhaps Shiera Seastar? For what purpose would Bloodraven have burned the woman he loved so much?

[LynnS]

Just now, Melifeather said:

And perhaps Shiera Seastar? For what purpose would Bloodraven have burned the woman he loved so much?

I just don't know.  I'm very uninformed on the subject of Shiera Seastar.