What Happened at Summerhall

[chrisdaw]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

No, that is not true. Dany says her unborn son paid for dragon's lives. That's allusion one. The Nissa Nissa tale establishes that great magical gifts come from great sacrifices. That's allusion two. What greater sacrifice could she have made in order to get three dragons?

And the text doesnt state and/or lacks all kinds of allusions to things that are either widely accepted or subsequently turn out to be true: RLJ, the Arryn murder, the Westerling conspiracy . . .   So sorry, but to say this can't be true just because the text doesn't flat out state it is nonsense.

No the text does not allude to Rhaego being in the pyre at all, that he must have been in the pyre to have been a sacrifice to pay for life is something entirely of your own making.

[Springwatch]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

No, that is not true. Dany says her unborn son paid for dragon's lives.

That's not what Mirri says: she says Dany got what she paid for - life for Drogo.  And it immediately gets complicated, because Drogo gets his life-force back, but loses something else, which we might as well call his spirit - what made him him, what connected him to the world and his identity in it.

Probably we should believe that Dany got all she paid for, just not as she expected. Drogo's health was restored, and his spirit not lost, but consumed by Drogon and is still there, though also probably not in any recognisably human form.

Life for the dragons wasn't in Dany's contract, but anyway... the simplest reading is that the blood magic, not the pyre, gave life to the dragons. Rhaego suddenly gained a lot of years, the eggs suddenly lost a lot of years, the aeons that turned them to stone. Suddenly they were hatchable again.

[AlaskanSandman]

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"Bring me … egg … dragon's egg … please …" Her lashes turned to lead, and she was too weary to hold them up.

When she woke the third time, a shaft of golden sunlight was pouring through the smoke hole of the tent, and her arms were wrapped around a dragon's egg. It was the pale one, its scales the color of butter cream, veined with whorls of gold and bronze, and Dany could feel the heat of it. Beneath her bedsilks, a fine sheen of perspiration covered her bare skin. Dragondew, she thought. Her fingers trailed lightly across the surface of the shell, tracing the wisps of gold, and deep in the stone she felt something twist and stretch in response. It did not frighten her. All her fear was gone, burned away.

Dany touched her brow. Under the film of sweat, her skin was cool to the touch, her fever gone. She made herself sit. There was a moment of dizziness, and the deep ache between her thighs. Yet she felt strong. Her maids came running at the sound of her voice. "Water," she told them, "a flagon of water, cold as you can find it. And fruit, I think. Dates."

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

She should weep, she knew, yet her eyes were dry as ash. She had wept in her dream, and the tears had turned to steam on her cheeks. All the grief has been burned out of me, she told herself. She felt sad, and yet … she could feel Rhaego receding from her, as if he had never been.

Ser Jorah and Mirri Maz Duur entered a few moments later, and found Dany standing over the other dragon's eggs, the two still in their chest. It seemed to her that they felt as hot as the one she had slept with, which was passing strange. "Ser Jorah, come here," she said. She took his hand and placed it on the black egg with the scarlet swirls. "What do you feel?"

"Shell, hard as rock." The knight was wary. "Scales."

 

The spirit of Viserys was in his egg already at least, and all 3 were warm despite only sleeping with one. The pyre gave the eggs the needed heat, but were not what put the spirits in the eggs.

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

I do not believe it was sabotage. Aegon just fckd up.  He wasn't the person to resurrect the dragons.  The privilege to hatch, ride, and command dragons was not his.  That privilege belongs to his future great-granddaughter, the lovely Daenerys. 

[John Suburbs]

On 12/10/2021 at 2:25 PM, chrisdaw said:

No the text does not allude to Rhaego being in the pyre at all, that he must have been in the pyre to have been a sacrifice to pay for life is something entirely of your own making.

Well how else would he have been a sacrifice if he wasn't in the pyre? Drogo was sacrificed in the pyre, MMD was sacrificed in the pyre. Three dragons came out of the pyre and Dany says it was the sacrifices of Drogo, MMD and Rhaego that birthed her dragons. So it's a simple matter of extrapolating from known data.

Ned never once thinks that Jon is Lyanna's son either. Never alludes to it, never nothing. And yet the fundamental theory underpinning the entire story is extrapolated from what we do know (or think we know, at least). Just like this.

[John Suburbs]

On 12/10/2021 at 2:58 PM, Springwatch said:

That's not what Mirri says: she says Dany got what she paid for - life for Drogo.  And it immediately gets complicated, because Drogo gets his life-force back, but loses something else, which we might as well call his spirit - what made him him, what connected him to the world and his identity in it.

Probably we should believe that Dany got all she paid for, just not as she expected. Drogo's health was restored, and his spirit not lost, but consumed by Drogon and is still there, though also probably not in any recognisably human form.

Life for the dragons wasn't in Dany's contract, but anyway... the simplest reading is that the blood magic, not the pyre, gave life to the dragons. Rhaego suddenly gained a lot of years, the eggs suddenly lost a lot of years, the aeons that turned them to stone. Suddenly they were hatchable again.

You are conflating two entirely separate ceremonies. Drogo's life was saved with whatever mumbo-jumbo MMD was doing in the tent with the shadows.

In the pyre, where the dragons were hatched, we saw two lives directly: Drogo, who was still alive under Dothraki custom, and MMD, who was still living and breathing. And yet three dragons hatched, two of which had personalities that closely resemble the two lives: Drogo/Drogon and Rhaegal/MMD. So for the third we have to look into other relevant text first (and the spell that spared Drogo is not relevant here), and we see Dany, who was in the flames and bound up in all the magic that was happening, says Rhaego was part of the sacrifice that allowed her to hatch the eggs. Then we can look at Viserion's personality and it precisely matches that of an infant wanting to cling to its mother.

For me, this is case-closed. Viserion is Rhaego. Feel free to differ but you won't get me to change my view because it is all perfectly cut and dried.

[Frey family reunion]

14 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

You are conflating two entirely separate ceremonies. Drogo's life was saved with whatever mumbo-jumbo MMD was doing in the tent with the shadows.

The reason I don't think we can neatly seperate the two ceremonies, is that Dany, Rhaego, Drogo, Mirri, and the dragon eggs were all present in the blood magic ceremony.

And the x-factor is that Dany and her unborn child weren't supposed to be in the tent, and the eggs were probably not accounted for because everyone believed they were fossilized trinkets.

So when Mirri was casting a spell transferring the spirt of Drogo's horse into him, Dany and her unborn child was brought in.  My guess is that's when the transfers would have occurred.  

[Springwatch]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

You are conflating two entirely separate ceremonies. Drogo's life was saved with whatever mumbo-jumbo MMD was doing in the tent with the shadows.

The Targ words are 'Fire and Blood'. Dany's eggs were exposed to blood magic before they went on the pyre. And before that, they were in contact with Targs, just like the royal eggs of old were placed in Targ cradles to aid bonding - so by precedent, it's likely a part of Rhaego's spirit was shared with an egg at that time.

btw, if the analogy with skinchanging is sound, then more than one human spirit can exist in a beast at the same time - Varamyr could sense Orell, and his old master, I think.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

In the pyre, where the dragons were hatched, we saw two lives directly: Drogo, who was still alive under Dothraki custom, and MMD, who was still living and breathing. And yet three dragons hatched, two of which had personalities that closely resemble the two lives: Drogo/Drogon and Rhaegal/MMD. So for the third we have to look into other relevant text first (and the spell that spared Drogo is not relevant here), and we see Dany, who was in the flames and bound up in all the magic that was happening, says Rhaego was part of the sacrifice that allowed her to hatch the eggs. Then we can look at Viserion's personality and it precisely matches that of an infant wanting to cling to its mother.

For me, this is case-closed. Viserion is Rhaego. Feel free to differ but you won't get me to change my view because it is all perfectly cut and dried.

Fine. I don't see those likenesses myself, but fine. What I want to say is, the blood ceremony on Drogo shows that strength and spirit are two separate things - he gained strength and lost spirit. The eggs, being fossils, likely needed an infusion of both strength and spirit in order to hatch. The when and the who is just not clear

Drogo lost his spirit in the blood magic ceremony. Where did it go? Varamyr tells that a bodiless spirit just melts away into the natural world. So I think we have to assume the black egg got it - (and perhaps, later some of it left skyward in the pyre ceremony, as represented by the rider of the smoky stallion). In which case, the pyre ceremony is not about spirit transfer, but life itself. Fire is life. Warmth is life. So maybe three things, spirit, strength and life. For comparison, this is the legend of Nissa Nissa: her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel.

[chrisdaw]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Well how else would he have been a sacrifice if he wasn't in the pyre? Drogo was sacrificed in the pyre, MMD was sacrificed in the pyre. Three dragons came out of the pyre and Dany says it was the sacrifices of Drogo, MMD and Rhaego that birthed her dragons. So it's a simple matter of extrapolating from known data.

There is no mention in the text of Rhaego's remains being in the pyre or of Rhaego's remains at all after Jorah/MMD describe them to Dany. There is no reaction or acknowledgement from Dany of having ever seen the remains despite being in the pyre herself and we being in her POV. Throughout the series she never recalls having seen the remains. You're welcome to your theory but I don't want people reading your posts and misunderstanding what is in the text.

[AlaskanSandman]

8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

You are conflating two entirely separate ceremonies. Drogo's life was saved with whatever mumbo-jumbo MMD was doing in the tent with the shadows.

In the pyre, where the dragons were hatched, we saw two lives directly: Drogo, who was still alive under Dothraki custom, and MMD, who was still living and breathing. And yet three dragons hatched, two of which had personalities that closely resemble the two lives: Drogo/Drogon and Rhaegal/MMD. So for the third we have to look into other relevant text first (and the spell that spared Drogo is not relevant here), and we see Dany, who was in the flames and bound up in all the magic that was happening, says Rhaego was part of the sacrifice that allowed her to hatch the eggs. Then we can look at Viserion's personality and it precisely matches that of an infant wanting to cling to its mother.

For me, this is case-closed. Viserion is Rhaego. Feel free to differ but you won't get me to change my view because it is all perfectly cut and dried.

The point at which Viserions egg moves is after her miscarriage to Rhaego. You are right in lining those up in a way. Idk if you're right or not, but I can see why you think that. 

Since Rhaego and Drogo were the last to die, and died about the same time. With Viserys dying earlier, you could say Viserion is Viserys, and Rhaegel and Drogon who were not stirring yet as far as we are told are Rhaego and Drogon who died about the same time. So Rhaegel and Drogon could have stirred together in the pyre, after Viserys had already stirred within Viserion. 

Im not sure it matter much though who is in which egg. Maybe

[AlaskanSandman]

Mirri may be trying to help by giving Drogo some life force or something from the Horse or the other way around. Dany was to stay out, but by entering, may have interfered, causing Drogo and Rhaego's spirits to flee their bodies into the Eggs.

 

Mirri trained with Marwyn, connected via Alleras/Sarella to Oberyn Martell and House Martell in Dorne. House Martell who have to try to help in secret so no one suspects them. As Dorne knows of Dany and Viserys after having tried to wed Viserys to Arriane. With Dorne later sending Quentyn. House Martell who is likely in opposition to Varys and Illyrio and their slave trade agenda, as House Martell had the Sea Lord of Braavos sign the marriage pact. The Sea Lord later dies and its implied by the House of Black and White, as Sirio Forel seems to be trained to see through glamours. Calling a cat, just a cat, and passing the test. 

Mirri was likely trying to help Danny, and Drogo and Dany mucked it up.

[chrisdaw]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Mirri may be trying to help by giving Drogo some life force or something from the Horse or the other way around. Dany was to stay out, but by entering, may have interfered, causing Drogo and Rhaego's spirits to flee their bodies into the Eggs.

 

Mirri trained with Marwyn, connected via Alleras/Sarella to Oberyn Martell and House Martell in Dorne. House Martell who have to try to help in secret so no one suspects them. As Dorne knows of Dany and Viserys after having tried to wed Viserys to Arriane. With Dorne later sending Quentyn. House Martell who is likely in opposition to Varys and Illyrio and their slave trade agenda, as House Martell had the Sea Lord of Braavos sign the marriage pact. The Sea Lord later dies and its implied by the House of Black and White, as Sirio Forel seems to be trained to see through glamours. Calling a cat, just a cat, and passing the test. 

Mirri was likely trying to help Danny, and Drogo and Dany mucked it up.

Yes she trained with Marwyn and had some idea what she was doing.

Quote

Mirri Maz Duur laughed cruelly. "Look to your khal and see what life is worth, when all the rest is gone."

Which was separating the souls from their bodies (same as skin changers do to themselves and Euron's horn does to the blower), just the ending up in the eggs part was completely unforeseen. But she's not doing it for any goodly purpose, she states flatly what she is and why she did what she did, there's no reason to doubt the cruelty she wears after her reveal, and if she had any idea of the souls persisting the presumption would have to be that she was condemning them to the "darkness".

Quote

 

"… don't want to wake the dragon …"

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

 

. . .

Quote

 

"Monstrous," Mirri Maz Duur finished for him. The knight was a powerful man, yet Dany understood in that moment that the maegi was stronger, and crueler, and infinitely more dangerous. "Twisted. I drew him forth myself. He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat. When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption. He had been dead for years."

Darkness, Dany thought. The terrible darkness sweeping up behind to devour her. If she looked back she was lost. "My son was alive and strong when Ser Jorah carried me into this tent," she said. "I could feel him kicking, fighting to be born."

 

[AlaskanSandman]

10 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Yes she trained with Marwyn and had some idea what she was doing.

Which was separating the souls from their bodies (same as skin changers do to themselves and Euron's horn does to the blower), just the ending up in the eggs part was completely unforeseen. But she's not doing it for any goodly purpose, she states flatly what she is and why she did what she did, there's no reason to doubt the cruelty she wears after her reveal, and if she had any idea of the souls persisting the presumption would have to be that she was condemning them to the "darkness".

. . .

Quote

Mirri Maz Duur laughed cruelly. "Look to your khal and see what life is worth, when all the rest is gone."

Mirri is old, and has lost everything probably with that village burning. She was raped and beaten by Dany's friends. This could also just be seen as a woman laughing at the irony of it, given her situation is now the same, and not worth living. Whether she killed Drogo, or Drogo died from no one listening to Mirri, her situation shares the same irony as Drogo's now.

Mirri gave him stuff for his wound and he takes it off and smears mud in it. That alone could cause infection. There may not have been anything Mirri could do to save Drogo. At least not any spell she knew. Her job was to help hatch dragons maybe. Or maybe not.

 

Another take on it, is that she was there to help, and put in Dany's path, but after the rape and beating, had a change of heart.

[Frey family reunion]

10 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Which was separating the souls from their bodies (same as skin changers do to themselves and Euron's horn does to the blower), just the ending up in the eggs part was completely unforeseen. But she's not doing it for any goodly purpose, she states flatly what she is and why she did what she did, there's no reason to doubt the cruelty she wears after her reveal, and if she had any idea of the souls persisting the presumption would have to be that she was condemning them to the "darkness".

Her reaction after the fact doesn’t necessarily imply her intent.  She did give strict instructions that weren’t followed.  It’s just that when things went awry she didn’t have any regret as to the final outcome, because she hated the Khal and his merry band of rapers and murderers.

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 12/10/2021 at 9:48 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"Bring me … egg … dragon's egg … please …" Her lashes turned to lead, and she was too weary to hold them up.

When she woke the third time, a shaft of golden sunlight was pouring through the smoke hole of the tent, and her arms were wrapped around a dragon's egg. It was the pale one, its scales the color of butter cream, veined with whorls of gold and bronze, and Dany could feel the heat of it. Beneath her bedsilks, a fine sheen of perspiration covered her bare skin. Dragondew, she thought. Her fingers trailed lightly across the surface of the shell, tracing the wisps of gold, and deep in the stone she felt something twist and stretch in response. It did not frighten her. All her fear was gone, burned away.

Dany touched her brow. Under the film of sweat, her skin was cool to the touch, her fever gone. She made herself sit. There was a moment of dizziness, and the deep ache between her thighs. Yet she felt strong. Her maids came running at the sound of her voice. "Water," she told them, "a flagon of water, cold as you can find it. And fruit, I think. Dates."

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

She should weep, she knew, yet her eyes were dry as ash. She had wept in her dream, and the tears had turned to steam on her cheeks. All the grief has been burned out of me, she told herself. She felt sad, and yet … she could feel Rhaego receding from her, as if he had never been.

Ser Jorah and Mirri Maz Duur entered a few moments later, and found Dany standing over the other dragon's eggs, the two still in their chest. It seemed to her that they felt as hot as the one she had slept with, which was passing strange. "Ser Jorah, come here," she said. She took his hand and placed it on the black egg with the scarlet swirls. "What do you feel?"

"Shell, hard as rock." The knight was wary. "Scales."

 

The spirit of Viserys was in his egg already at least, and all 3 were warm despite only sleeping with one. The pyre gave the eggs the needed heat, but were not what put the spirits in the eggs.

The third time and she felt strong. The Child of Three, Azor Ahai. King Aerys II dies, King Viserys III dies, she inherits Westeros. Always in threes.  

[John Suburbs]

On 12/13/2021 at 11:27 AM, Frey family reunion said:

The reason I don't think we can neatly seperate the two ceremonies, is that Dany, Rhaego, Drogo, Mirri, and the dragon eggs were all present in the blood magic ceremony.

And the x-factor is that Dany and her unborn child weren't supposed to be in the tent, and the eggs were probably not accounted for because everyone believed they were fossilized trinkets.

So when Mirri was casting a spell transferring the spirt of Drogo's horse into him, Dany and her unborn child was brought in.  My guess is that's when the transfers would have occurred.  

Eh, we know the dragons were awake in the eggs long before the tent ceremony. Dany was getting vivid dreams way back in the Great Grass Sea, and she felt heat from them when no one else could. So I don't see how we can trace the origin of the dragons to this ceremony.

Plus, the math doesn't add up. Only death can pay for life. So in the tent we had two deaths, the horse and Rhaego. And these paid for Drogo and all three dragons?

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

There is no mention in the text of Rhaego's remains being in the pyre or of Rhaego's remains at all after Jorah/MMD describe them to Dany. There is no reaction or acknowledgement from Dany of having ever seen the remains despite being in the pyre herself and we being in her POV. Throughout the series she never recalls having seen the remains. You're welcome to your theory but I don't want people reading your posts and misunderstanding what is in the text.

Lol, thank you for thinking that I have that much influence of what people think.

There is no mention in the text of Lyanna ever giving birth to Jon. There is no reaction or acknowledgement from Ned or anyone else that Jon is the son of Lyanna, or Rhaegar, despite being with her when she died and we being in his POV when he is remembering all of these events.

Before Storm, there was also no mention in the text of anyone but Cersei being responsible for Jon Arryn's death, and we have had words from Pycelle saying "she wanted him dead" because "he knew about . . . about . . ."

So to begin with, absence of evidence is never evidence of absence. And when dealing with Martin, even the presence of evidence cannot be relied upon to dismiss a theory.

 

[John Suburbs]

18 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The point at which Viserions egg moves is after her miscarriage to Rhaego. You are right in lining those up in a way. Idk if you're right or not, but I can see why you think that. 

Since Rhaego and Drogo were the last to die, and died about the same time. With Viserys dying earlier, you could say Viserion is Viserys, and Rhaegel and Drogon who were not stirring yet as far as we are told are Rhaego and Drogon who died about the same time. So Rhaegel and Drogon could have stirred together in the pyre, after Viserys had already stirred within Viserion. 

Im not sure it matter much though who is in which egg. Maybe

No, I disagree. Dany was having dragon dreams and feeling heat from the eggs when no one else could long before the tent ceremony when she lost Rhaego. I don't remember the egg moving. Is that in the next chapter, when she smothers Drogo?

Rhaego and Drogo and MMD were the last to die. Viserion died months before. And sorry, but I just can't swallow the idea that any death at any time can pay for a life, especially a dragon's life. If that were the case, people would be able to do all kinds of magic because their great grandma died 50 years ago. The whole system collapses.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

6 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

The third time and she felt strong. The Child of Three, Azor Ahai. King Aerys II dies, King Viserys III dies, she inherits Westeros. Always in threes.  

Im not sure what you're saying here, but yea, Dany is tied to the 3 mythology. I tend to think she's Nissa Nissa though, not Azor Ahai. Nissa rhymes with Meesa. Corruption of the legend perhaps?

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

No, I disagree. Dany was having dragon dreams and feeling heat from the eggs when no one else could long before the tent ceremony when she lost Rhaego. I don't remember the egg moving. Is that in the next chapter, when she smothers Drogo?

Rhaego and Drogo and MMD were the last to die. Viserion died months before. And sorry, but I just can't swallow the idea that any death at any time can pay for a life, especially a dragon's life. If that were the case, people would be able to do all kinds of magic because their great grandma died 50 years ago. The whole system collapses.

 

Well Viserys going into one of the Eggs is irrelevant of Mirri. Varymyr six skins shows us that. Visery's could've fled on his own into the eggs. That doesn't mean it hatch still though. Varymyr isn't hatching eggs, he's finding his second life