What Happened at Summerhall

[AlaskanSandman]

However, in 239 AC, while traveling in the riverlands, Duncan encountered and fell in love with and married a "strange, lovely, and mysterious" peasant woman known as Jenny of Oldstones.^[5]

 

In 259 AC, Prince Duncan died in the Tragedy at Summerhall along with his father, King Aegon V Targaryen, his namesake Ser Duncan the Tall, and several other members of the royal court.^[10][3][11]

239-259.        20 years they were married with no children?

 

@Ran

Has GRRM ever mentioned anything with Jenny and Duncan having children, stillborn or otherwise? Or is this a non issue? Or something we'll have to wait and see about? I understand somethings didn't make the books that aren't really secrets, while other things are. 

[AlaskanSandman]

12 hours ago, Megorova said:

The birth of Mel's shadow-demons took life-force out of Stannis. And they were merely shadows, born to kill a specific person and then to ceaze existing. And Stannis was very ill afterwards, drained. So for the birth of a magical being that also will be a real human, what is required is a tremendous amount of life-force. For example - Shiera's birth killed both of her parents, Mel's birth took years of life out of her mother.

Though there is no textual evidences, those are just my assumptions. Not about Stannis, just about Shiera and Mel.

I forgot, I had considered this and talked about this years ago. Varys is the child of Duncan and Jenny of Old Stones. This is why he was castrated. For his kings blood. He is of the right age to have been born around the same time as Rhaegar. The Castration may have been at Summerhal, or sometime after.  Or this is at least the theory I had come to. With Melisandre being the child of Bloodraven and Shiear Seastar, and much older than Varys or Rhaegar. 

This is why Varys has a shaved head and looks like an Egg. An Aegon. Like Aegon the V was Egg. With his deep voice though, its possible that Varys still has the Pillar and the Stones though. Unless they took them after he had already hit puberty. 

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, Megorova said:

Yes. We'll see later whether my assumptions were correct or wrong.

ADWD, Dany I -

She was wearing those too small for he slippers for HOURS, and bearing with pain and discomfort that they caused her. That shows that she's DUMB.

Nah, I would be gobsmacked if any of this is even remotely true, but best of luck to you.

And slippers? After all she has done -- staring down her brother and Drogo's bloodriders, birthing dragons, taking down Astapor and Meereen -- she becomes utterly stupid just for wearing a pair of slippers? Heck, you might have made a slight case for her trusting MMD or not anticipating the fallout from her momentous actions, but slippers?

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Dany woke from her fever dream after the tent incident without Rhaego in her womb. The funeral pyre came after and Rhaego's body is not ever said to be or ever implied to be in the funeral pyre. Rhaego was not in the funeral pyre.

Again, are you sure? Dany specifically states the dragon's lives were paid for by Drogo, MMD and Rhaego. So even if there was nothing left to burn, his life is what paid for a dragon. And honestly, that's the only thing that makes sense because it is the value of the sacrifice that triggers the magic, like in the AA/NN story. What greater sacrifice could she make than the son who was to be the Stallion Who Mounts the World?

Ned never once brings up the thought that Jon is Lyanna's son, despite lengthy unbidden memories of her, the ToJ and all the rest. And nowhere else is this ever said or even implied in the text. Ergo, it's not possible?

[Megorova]

10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

However, in 239 AC, while traveling in the riverlands, Duncan encountered and fell in love with and married a "strange, lovely, and mysterious" peasant woman known as Jenny of Oldstones.^[5]

Look at the exact phrasing in the book:

Quote

Aegon’s eldest son Duncan, Prince of Dragonstone and heir to the throne, was the first to defy him. Though betrothed to a daughter of House Baratheon of Storm’s End, Duncan became enamored of a strange, lovely, and mysterious girl who called herself Jenny of Oldstones in 239 AC, whilst traveling in the riverlands. Though she dwelt half-wild amidst ruins and claimed descent from the long-vanished kings of the First Men, the smallfolk of surrounding villages mocked such tales, insisting that she was only some half-mad peasant girl, and perhaps even a witch.

...

Even when the High Septon, Grand Maester, and small council joined together to insist King Aegon force his son to choose between the Iron Throne and this wild woman of the woods, Duncan would not budge.

...

Jenny of Oldstones—Lady Jenny, as she was called by courtesy—was eventually accepted at court, and throughout the Seven Kingdoms the smallfolk held her especially dear. She and her prince, forever after known as the Prince of Dragonflies, were a favorite subject of singers for many years.

Jenny of Oldstones was a girl, not a woman, when she and Duncan met.

And the next phrasing, in which she was referred to as a "wild woman of the woods", not necessary reflect Jenny's age. It could be the same kind of thing as the Freemen from Dune. A girl Chani is one of the Freemen, despite not even being a man. FreeMEN. So Jenny could have been 9 years old, and still was referred to as a wild woman of the woods. It's also the same kind of thing as the Children of the Forest - they are forever the Children, no matter what their age is. And apparently there is no phrases like "a wild girl of the woods", or "a wild maiden of the woods", there's only - "a wild woman of the woods", and thus this phrase could be referred to any "wild" female, no matter what her age is. So just because the Councils called Jenny a wild woman of the woods, it doesn't mean that she was an adult. Furthermore, a virginal female is referred to as a maiden, and I don't think that Duncan would have became interested in a female that has already been someone's "bed partner". So Jenny obviously was a maiden/a virgin, and still she was referred to as "a wild woman of the woods". So her being called a woman, in this context, means absolutely nothing in relation to her age. Thus we can just ignore this part, and then the only remaining part is the one where Jenny was TWICE referred to as a "girl".

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Varys is the child of Duncan and Jenny of Old Stones. This is why he was castrated. For his kings blood. He is of the right age to have been born around the same time as Rhaegar. The Castration may have been at Summerhal, or sometime after.  Or this is at least the theory I had come to. With Melisandre being the child of Bloodraven and Shiear Seastar, and much older than Varys or Rhaegar. 

I have a theory that Varys is indeed a son of Jenny. Though his father is not Duncan, it's Maelys the Monstrous. And Illyrio's wife - Serra, is Varys' older twin-sister (so Varys is the Valonqar - a younger sibling). The Blackfyres and the Faceless Men conspired together and caused the burning of Summerhall, and then Maelys kidnapped Jenny, for her magical blood. Because possibly there was a prophecy according to which Jenny's child was destined to become a Kingmaker. Varys thinks that he is the Kingmaker, but the real Kingmaker is Melisandre. And she will crown the true King of the 7K - Aegon VII Targaryen (Jon Snow). Here is that theory:

Swan Song part 9/16. The Red Widow & The Spider

I actually wrote a theory - "Swan Song" in sexteen parts, that ties together all loose ends left by GRRM in the first five books and TWOIAF, F&B, and D&E novels.

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

This is why Varys has a shaved head and looks like an Egg. An Aegon. Like Aegon the V was Egg.

If my theory is correct, then Egg is Varys' step-grandfather. I don't know whether there is such a thing What I mean is that Egg is Duncan the Small's father, and Duncan married with Jenny; and then after Duncan's death, Jenny was forced to marry with Maelys, and then were born Serra and Varys - Maelys' posthumous children (they were born already after Maelys died in the War of the Ninepenny Kings). So Egg is sort of a step-grandfather to Serra and Varys. Also Varys' actual grandfather (the maternal one - the father of Jenny) is Duncan the Tall, and in my opinion Dunk's parents were Daemon I Blackfyre and princess Daenerys Targaryen. I wrote about it in the 5th part of the Swan Song - The Real cause of the First Blackfyre Rebellion (the links to all parts of SS are in my signature).

So Varys is not Egg's descendant, despite that similarity between them. Instead Varys' grandfather is Egg's best friend - Duncan the Tall.

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Varys is the child of Duncan and Jenny of Old Stones. This is why he was castrated. For his kings blood.

If my theory is correct then both of Varys' parents were partial Targaryens.

Aegon IV + Daena the Defiant = Daemon I Blackfyre + Rohanne of Tyrosh = 7 sons and at least 2 daughters = ....... = Maelys Blackfyre.

Daemon I Blackfyre + Daenerys Targaryen = Duncan the Tall + Rohanne Webber-Lannister = Jenny of Oldstones.

Jenny + Duncan the Small = Melisandre.

Maelys + Jenny = Serra and Varys - twins.

[There was a lot of twins amongst dragonseeds from those generations and until now (the latest pair were Robert Baratheon's children, born by a serving woman from Casterly Rock), ~12 or 13 pairs in total, including Maelys himself - his small head is his Siamese twin. And Jenny's father - Dunk, had half-siblings who were twins - Daemon's firstborn sons - Aegon and Aemon). So Dunk had a half-brother named Aegon, and his best friend - Egg, also was named Aegon.]

So on his father's side Varys is a descendant of King Aegon IV and princess Daena, and on his mother's side he is a descendant of Daemon and Daenerys, both of whom were children of King Aegon IV. So yes, Varys has a LOT of the King's blood.

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

He is of the right age to have been born around the same time as Rhaegar.

Varys was born in late 260-early 261, he was conceived by Maelys already after the burning of Summerhall, and prior to the War of the Ninepenny Kings. So it's Melisandre who is exactly same age as Rhaegar - they were born on the same day (or was it a night?), while the castle burned. And Varys is a bit younger, between 9 and 18 months younger than Rhaegar and Mel, so - nearly 40 in 300 AC.

I think that Varys could be a Scorpio (his sign of Zodiac) - born between October 23 and November 22, so the 10th or 11th Moon of the year 260 AC. Or maybe he was conceived in April (of 260), and thus was born in January (of 261), same as Rhaegar's Aegon and Barristan's fAegon, that were conceived on the Fool's Day - on the 1st April of 281 (when the wrong comet, not the Promised Prince's omen, was seen in the skyes above King's Landing and Kingswood, where were conceived on the same night Aegon and fAegon, who were then born in January of 281). So Rhaegar and Varys were fools when they believed that their Aegon is the destined Prince, and Maelys was also a fool when he thought that his child with Jenny, possibly conceived in April of 260, will become the Kingmaker.

If Varys was a son of Jenny and Duncan the Small, then there would have been no connection between Varys and the Golden Company, and no reason for Varys to support fAegon, who is a secret Blackfyre (that's why Golden Company is supporting fAegon, and previously had refused to support Dany's brother - Viserys).

How did Serra ended up as a pleasure slave in Lys, and Varys ended up as a slave, and then was castrated, is explained in that same thread - SS-Part 9/16.

I came up with a theory that connects everything, in chronological order, with no loose ends left. That theory encompasses the Blackfyres and their Rebellions, the Golden Company, Dunk&Egg, Melisandre, the Ghost of High Heart, Jenny of Oldstones, Varys' origin and his motives, Littlefinger and his obsession with the Tully-girls and Sansa, Azor Ahai, the Three-Eyed Crow, the Faceless Men and what is their part in what's going on (that part is written in the Iron Shell threads), the Stallion that Mounts the World, the three heads of the dragon, Brienne, Hodor, the Hound, the Mountain, Tattered Prince, Pretty Meris, Old Nan's real identity, Dawn Sword of Daynes/Azor Ahai's Lightbringer, what happened at the Tower of Joy, what happened to Ashara Dayne, the Knight of the Laughing Tree and what happened at Harrenhal, why Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, what is the meaning of Dany's visions in the House of the Undying, what is the role of Euron Greyjoy and Quaithe, Mirri Maz Duur, how is maester Marwyn connected to what is going on, well EVERYTHING I'm pretty sure that my theories are correct, though it still will be funny if/when they will be confirmed by GRRM in the following books.

[Megorova]

31 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Dany specifically states the dragon's lives were paid for by Drogo, MMD and Rhaego. So even if there was nothing left to burn, his life is what paid for a dragon. And honestly, that's the only thing that makes sense because it is the value of the sacrifice that triggers the magic, like in the AA/NN story. What greater sacrifice could she make than the son who was to be the Stallion Who Mounts the World?

Please, read this:

Swan Song part 11/16. The Stallion that mounts the world

And while reading it, also, please, hold back your scepticism. Don't just scoff at everything that is written there. Could you keep your mind open, and just read the OP of that thread, without immediately negating what you will be reading there? Just read until the end, while perceiving it as a data-input, not as something that you need to rebuff or disagree with. Just READ it. Will you?

What is written there, that's what makes sense, and is supported by the text of AGOT Dany IX.

[chrisdaw]

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Again, are you sure?

I am sure the text never says or alludes to Rhaego's body being in the pyre.

[Frey family reunion]

49 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

I am sure the text never says or alludes to Rhaego's body being in the pyre.

I think the key moment for Rhaego’s (and probably Drogo’s) contribution to Dany’s egg hatching, occurs in the tent when Mirri performs her blood magic.  From what I recall, the eggs are in the tent as well.  So when Dany’s brought into the tent in the middle of the ritual, that’s when Rhaego’s spirit would have been transferred to the eggs starting the process that culminates on the pyre.

[chrisdaw]

1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think the key moment for Rhaego’s (and probably Drogo’s) contribution to Dany’s egg hatching, occurs in the tent when Mirri performs her blood magic.  From what I recall, the eggs are in the tent as well.  So when Dany’s brought into the tent in the middle of the ritual, that’s when Rhaego’s spirit would have been transferred to the eggs starting the process that culminates on the pyre.

Yes and it is shown multiple ways, including the wake the dragon fever dream and Dany's immediate reaction after. Still in the tent but after MMD's "event";

Quote

 

The tent was drenched in shadow, still and close. Flakes of ash drifted upward from a brazier, and Dany followed them with her eyes through the smoke hole above. Flying, she thought. I had wings, I was flying. But it was only a dream. "Help me," she whispered, struggling to rise. "Bring me …" Her voice was raw as a wound, and she could not think what she wanted. Why did she hurt so much? It was as if her body had been torn to pieces and remade from the scraps. "I want …"

"Yes, Khaleesi." Quick as that Jhiqui was gone, bolting from the tent, shouting. Dany needed … something … someone … what? It was important, she knew. It was the only thing in the world that mattered. She rolled onto her side and got an elbow under her, fighting the blanket tangled about her legs. It was so hard to move. The world swam dizzily. I have to …

They found her on the carpet, crawling toward her dragon eggs. Ser Jorah Mormont lifted her in his arms and carried her back to her sleeping silks, while she struggled feebly against him. Over his shoulder she saw her three handmaids, Jhogo with his little wisp of mustache, and the flat broad face of Mirri Maz Duur. "I must," she tried to tell them, "I have to …"

 

The flakes of flying ash are like the souls of Drogo and Rhaego (and Dany but her's came back to her body and she lived), they "flew". The eggs are the only things in the world that matter but she can't quite remember why (because she's feverish and weak, and because it'd be a massive spoiler), but it's because they've now got Drogo's (after the tent he's in his vegetive state, which is the state of a skin changer that "slipped their skin") and Rhaego's souls. I would assume when she says she "must" and "have to" she's thinking she has to hatch the eggs, essentially bring Drogo and Rhaego back to life, "free" them in a sense.

But this is all a digression. The child sacrifice is required, probably in the womb to establish the blood bond with the mother's blood line. Without it, none of this gets off the ground, people may die and their souls enter the eggs but the eggs don't have fire, don't have life. Perhaps because a child in the womb or newborn is in the same state of the lifecycle as an egg that their sacrifice is required? Not sure, anyway, Rhaegar didn't die so no fire to wake dragons, had he died there would have been dragons, Rhaego died so Dany got dragons. The child sacrifice (or coincidental unplanned death) is necessary, it is a magical mechanism that sets this shit off.

[Frey family reunion]

2 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Rhaegar didn't die so no fire to wake dragons, had he died there would have been dragons

I'm not sure about this.  Even if Rhaegar was sacrificed, it may not have been sufficient.  I think the missing component was someone like Dany, who had the necessary, umm, blood required to hatch the dragons.  I think there is a reason that she's put with the eggs for such an extended period of time.  I think Dany might be a unicorn here, and someone who's absence contributed to all of the Targaryens past failures.

[chrisdaw]

12 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I'm not sure about this.  Even if Rhaegar was sacrificed, it may not have been sufficient.  I think the missing component was someone like Dany, who had the necessary, umm, blood required to hatch the dragons.  I think there is a reason that she's put with the eggs for such an extended period of time.  I think Dany might be a unicorn here, and someone who's absence contributed to all of the Targaryens past failures.

Dragons and Valyrian riding families preceded Dany.

[Frey family reunion]

4 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Dragons and Valyrian riding families preceded Dany.

Yea, they did, but they weren't the same Targaryen bloodline after the Dance.  Post-Dance the Targaryen royal family was the product of a Targaryen who couldn't hatch a dragon and the daughter of a Lysian banker.  I think it's a bit lazy just to look at the last name and assume that they'd have the same innate magic as their inbred dragonriding ancestors.  

[chrisdaw]

13 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yea, they did, but they weren't the same Targaryen bloodline after the Dance.  Post-Dance the Targaryen royal family was the product of a Targaryen who couldn't hatch a dragon and the daughter of a Lysian banker.  I think it's a bit lazy just to look at the last name and assume that they'd have the same innate magic as their inbred dragonriding ancestors.  

Yeah ok I disagree. To what degree the blood matters is open ended but I have no doubt the blood of the child matters more so than any other and Rhaegar would make for a better sacrifice than Rhaego.

[Brother Seamus]

i think the op's hypothesis is sound.

human sacrifice is a lynchpin to the magic/supernatural elements of the story and to the resolution of the various big mysteries in the story.

[AlaskanSandman]

10 hours ago, Megorova said:

Look at the exact phrasing in the book:

Jenny of Oldstones was a girl, not a woman, when she and Duncan met.

And the next phrasing, in which she was referred to as a "wild woman of the woods", not necessary reflect Jenny's age. It could be the same kind of thing as the Freemen from Dune. A girl Chani is one of the Freemen, despite not even being a man. FreeMEN. So Jenny could have been 9 years old, and still was referred to as a wild woman of the woods. It's also the same kind of thing as the Children of the Forest - they are forever the Children, no matter what their age is. And apparently there is no phrases like "a wild girl of the woods", or "a wild maiden of the woods", there's only - "a wild woman of the woods", and thus this phrase could be referred to any "wild" female, no matter what her age is. So just because the Councils called Jenny a wild woman of the woods, it doesn't mean that she was an adult. Furthermore, a virginal female is referred to as a maiden, and I don't think that Duncan would have became interested in a female that has already been someone's "bed partner". So Jenny obviously was a maiden/a virgin, and still she was referred to as "a wild woman of the woods". So her being called a woman, in this context, means absolutely nothing in relation to her age. Thus we can just ignore this part, and then the only remaining part is the one where Jenny was TWICE referred to as a "girl".

I have a theory that Varys is indeed a son of Jenny. Though his father is not Duncan, it's Maelys the Monstrous. And Illyrio's wife - Serra, is Varys' older twin-sister (so Varys is the Valonqar - a younger sibling). The Blackfyres and the Faceless Men conspired together and caused the burning of Summerhall, and then Maelys kidnapped Jenny, for her magical blood. Because possibly there was a prophecy according to which Jenny's child was destined to become a Kingmaker. Varys thinks that he is the Kingmaker, but the real Kingmaker is Melisandre. And she will crown the true King of the 7K - Aegon VII Targaryen (Jon Snow). Here is that theory:

Swan Song part 9/16. The Red Widow & The Spider

I actually wrote a theory - "Swan Song" in sexteen parts, that ties together all loose ends left by GRRM in the first five books and TWOIAF, F&B, and D&E novels.

If my theory is correct, then Egg is Varys' step-grandfather. I don't know whether there is such a thing What I mean is that Egg is Duncan the Small's father, and Duncan married with Jenny; and then after Duncan's death, Jenny was forced to marry with Maelys, and then were born Serra and Varys - Maelys' posthumous children (they were born already after Maelys died in the War of the Ninepenny Kings). So Egg is sort of a step-grandfather to Serra and Varys. Also Varys' actual grandfather (the maternal one - the father of Jenny) is Duncan the Tall, and in my opinion Dunk's parents were Daemon I Blackfyre and princess Daenerys Targaryen. I wrote about it in the 5th part of the Swan Song - The Real cause of the First Blackfyre Rebellion (the links to all parts of SS are in my signature).

So Varys is not Egg's descendant, despite that similarity between them. Instead Varys' grandfather is Egg's best friend - Duncan the Tall.

If my theory is correct then both of Varys' parents were partial Targaryens.

Aegon IV + Daena the Defiant = Daemon I Blackfyre + Rohanne of Tyrosh = 7 sons and at least 2 daughters = ....... = Maelys Blackfyre.

Daemon I Blackfyre + Daenerys Targaryen = Duncan the Tall + Rohanne Webber-Lannister = Jenny of Oldstones.

Jenny + Duncan the Small = Melisandre.

Maelys + Jenny = Serra and Varys - twins.

[There was a lot of twins amongst dragonseeds from those generations and until now (the latest pair were Robert Baratheon's children, born by a serving woman from Casterly Rock), ~12 or 13 pairs in total, including Maelys himself - his small head is his Siamese twin. And Jenny's father - Dunk, had half-siblings who were twins - Daemon's firstborn sons - Aegon and Aemon). So Dunk had a half-brother named Aegon, and his best friend - Egg, also was named Aegon.]

So on his father's side Varys is a descendant of King Aegon IV and princess Daena, and on his mother's side he is a descendant of Daemon and Daenerys, both of whom were children of King Aegon IV. So yes, Varys has a LOT of the King's blood.

Varys was born in late 260-early 261, he was conceived by Maelys already after the burning of Summerhall, and prior to the War of the Ninepenny Kings. So it's Melisandre who is exactly same age as Rhaegar - they were born on the same day (or was it a night?), while the castle burned. And Varys is a bit younger, between 9 and 18 months younger than Rhaegar and Mel, so - nearly 40 in 300 AC.

I think that Varys could be a Scorpio (his sign of Zodiac) - born between October 23 and November 22, so the 10th or 11th Moon of the year 260 AC. Or maybe he was conceived in April (of 260), and thus was born in January (of 261), same as Rhaegar's Aegon and Barristan's fAegon, that were conceived on the Fool's Day - on the 1st April of 281 (when the wrong comet, not the Promised Prince's omen, was seen in the skyes above King's Landing and Kingswood, where were conceived on the same night Aegon and fAegon, who were then born in January of 281). So Rhaegar and Varys were fools when they believed that their Aegon is the destined Prince, and Maelys was also a fool when he thought that his child with Jenny, possibly conceived in April of 260, will become the Kingmaker.

If Varys was a son of Jenny and Duncan the Small, then there would have been no connection between Varys and the Golden Company, and no reason for Varys to support fAegon, who is a secret Blackfyre (that's why Golden Company is supporting fAegon, and previously had refused to support Dany's brother - Viserys).

How did Serra ended up as a pleasure slave in Lys, and Varys ended up as a slave, and then was castrated, is explained in that same thread - SS-Part 9/16.

I came up with a theory that connects everything, in chronological order, with no loose ends left. That theory encompasses the Blackfyres and their Rebellions, the Golden Company, Dunk&Egg, Melisandre, the Ghost of High Heart, Jenny of Oldstones, Varys' origin and his motives, Littlefinger and his obsession with the Tully-girls and Sansa, Azor Ahai, the Three-Eyed Crow, the Faceless Men and what is their part in what's going on (that part is written in the Iron Shell threads), the Stallion that Mounts the World, the three heads of the dragon, Brienne, Hodor, the Hound, the Mountain, Tattered Prince, Pretty Meris, Old Nan's real identity, Dawn Sword of Daynes/Azor Ahai's Lightbringer, what happened at the Tower of Joy, what happened to Ashara Dayne, the Knight of the Laughing Tree and what happened at Harrenhal, why Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, what is the meaning of Dany's visions in the House of the Undying, what is the role of Euron Greyjoy and Quaithe, Mirri Maz Duur, how is maester Marwyn connected to what is going on, well EVERYTHING I'm pretty sure that my theories are correct, though it still will be funny if/when they will be confirmed by GRRM in the following books.

I def don't have a theory for everyone yet haha Im curious who Lewyn Martell's paramour was and whats up with Dark Star

[John Suburbs]

23 hours ago, Megorova said:

Please, read this:

Swan Song part 11/16. The Stallion that mounts the world

And while reading it, also, please, hold back your scepticism. Don't just scoff at everything that is written there. Could you keep your mind open, and just read the OP of that thread, without immediately negating what you will be reading there? Just read until the end, while perceiving it as a data-input, not as something that you need to rebuff or disagree with. Just READ it. Will you?

What is written there, that's what makes sense, and is supported by the text of AGOT Dany IX.

Sorry, but no. We've seen how this kind of magic works. Death pays for life, and it has to be a meaningful death, a meaningful sacrifice, to get a big reward. Horses don't pay for dragons. Unborn children who were supposed to be the khal of khals do. Case closed.

[John Suburbs]

18 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

I am sure the text never says or alludes to Rhaego's body being in the pyre.

No, that is not true. Dany says her unborn son paid for dragon's lives. That's allusion one. The Nissa Nissa tale establishes that great magical gifts come from great sacrifices. That's allusion two. What greater sacrifice could she have made in order to get three dragons?

And the text doesnt state and/or lacks all kinds of allusions to things that are either widely accepted or subsequently turn out to be true: RLJ, the Arryn murder, the Westerling conspiracy . . .   So sorry, but to say this can't be true just because the text doesn't flat out state it is nonsense.

[AlaskanSandman]

Dany burns her husband, and her self in a pyre but throws her baby in the dirt or a grass field. Seems likely.

 

A life for a life is the only way the eggs are hatching. If it was just a bloodline thing, the Targs should never be hatching dragons as its alluded that their blood is pretty diminished from the get go. On top of it, Aenys isn't likely Aegon's kid. If either of kis kids were legit, it was Maegor. They stopped wedding Velaryon's and started wedding Martell's, Hightowers, and such. 

Most people seem to think Daenerys is the Child of Aerys and Rhaella. So would have the exact same blood as them. They should be able to hatch dragons too. They should have eggs from Summerhall too to hatch. 

[Frey family reunion]

18 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I'm not sure about this.  Even if Rhaegar was sacrificed, it may not have been sufficient.  I think the missing component was someone like Dany, who had the necessary, umm, blood required to hatch the dragons.  I think there is a reason that she's put with the eggs for such an extended period of time.  I think Dany might be a unicorn here, and someone who's absence contributed to all of the Targaryens past failures.

If it's a simple blood magic ritual, then Asshai should be in the business of hatching dragon eggs, left and right.  But there is no indication, that's the case.  So I think it has to come down to someone imprinting on the eggs with the necessary innate magic, to help make them hatch.  

So I agree, that blood magic is a necessary component since you're having to hatch apparently nonviable eggs, but without Momma dragon, it's still not enough.

So the question remains, why would the descendants of Viserys II and Larra Rogare be able to hatch a dragon?  No one has ever made an argument that convinces me, that there should be anything special within this bloodline.  Even the Velaryons should have a step up on the post Dance Targaryens, since they were descended from a dragon rider.  You could even argue that the Blackfyre descendants might have a step up from the royal Targaryens, because they were descended from the daughter of Aegon III, who unlike his brother, was able to hatch and ride a dragon.

Which makes me think that Illyrio's comment that Dany was different from Viserys, in that she was of the bloodline of Aegon the Conqueror, might be more telling than we realize.  I'm not sure he was just referencing the natures of their characters.

[Megorova]

32 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

So the question remains, why would the descendants of Viserys II and Larra Rogare be able to hatch a dragon?  No one has ever made an argument that convinces me, that there should be anything special within this bloodline.

Because both Larra and Viserys were descendants of Azor Ahai. Larra's mother was Johanna Swann, and House Swann was founded by a son of Azor Ahai's fifth wife - the Tiger-woman, who was a widow of the Bloodstone Emperor - a guy who caused the First Long Night, and was Azor's maternal uncle. All Valyrians, including Targaryens, were descendants of Azor Ahai and his first wife (Nissa Nissa was the fourth wife, and her son founded House Dayne). Azor Ahai and thru him all of his descendants were aliens, because the Emperors of the Great Empire of the Dawn, including Azor's mother - the Amethyst Empress, were descendants of the God-on-Earth, who was likely a character from GRRM's sci-fi series "Tuf Voyaging" - Haviland Tuf. And those supposedly ancient people, that gave dragons to the first Valyrian Dragonlords (Azor's 40 sons, born by his first wife), were aliens, same as the God-on-Earth and the Seven Gods. Tuf brought dragons to Planetos on his spaceship - the Ark. Or rather he had no intentions of bringing them there, it's just that they broke free from the genetical engeneering lab, in which Tuf created them. So when they got out of the ship, they broke it - that's that Dothraki legend, about second moon in the sky, that got too close to the sun, cracked like an egg, and the dragons poured forth. Some time after those dragons came to Planetos, they all died, because Tuf was creating them for a different environment. He was going to bring them to that planet, which hired him to make for them those creatures. And instead they escaped from his ship, ended up on Planetos, and then died. Though prior they died, they layed eggs. Then Haviland descended from his ship, pretended to the primitive locals that he is a God, which is the same thing as he did in "Call him Moses" novel. Then he ruled over those people for 10.000 years (the Ark modified Tuf's DNA, and made him nearly immortal), and the Emperors of the Great Empire are his descendants, including Azor Ahai, the Targaryens, and Larra Rogare thru her Swann-mother. So when the aliens came to the first Valyrians, and brought them dragons, those "new" dragons were genetically modified, so that they were able to survive on Planetos, unlike the previous batch. And these dragons were encripted by a blood-code, that connected them specifically to the genes of Azor's 40 sons, born by his first wife (Azor had 44 sons in total, not 40 (same as the first King of the Andals, to whom aliens - the Seven Gods, gave an artificially created woman (Made in Ark), to produce 44 sons for Hugor). The other 4 were founders of House Hightower, Corbray, Dayne, and Swann). So the Targaryens are able to bond only with the Targaryen dragons, and the other Valyrian Houses also were able to form a bond only with "their" dragons. So because both Larra and Viserys were descendants of Azor's children, their own descendants will be able to hatch dragons, and to bond with them. Dany's three dragons hatched from the eggs that Elissa Farman stole from the Targaryens, so Dany and other people, who are at least partially Taragryens by blood, will be able to become dragonriders of Rhaegal and Viserion.