Jump to content

What is going to happen between Brienne, Jaime and Lady Stoneheart?


Odej
 Share

Recommended Posts

55 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Why? Other than her BWB goons enforcing her crazy vengeance filled vendetta for... reasons... what threat level does she bring to the table? 

With the disappearance of certain BWB members since Beric's death or whatever you want to call it, it's not outlandish to say there's dissent in the ranks since it's strayed from it's original purpose. All it would take is her men deciding that doing things like hanging innocent kids like Pod is wrong.

Not only that, Jaime said the Freys should do like Arthur did against the Kingswood Brotherhood and get the smallfolks to turn against the Brotherhood. I think this is what will finish the brotherhood.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Just because you can't imagine it, doesn't mean it can't be regardless of your opinion. 

I mean, I don't disagree that it can be. It certainly can, I'm not the one writing the books.

It'll be ludicrous because Martin has written himself into a corner. 

Yes, there have already been disagreements between the BWB and those who disliked the new route had already parted ways, no it doesn't make sense that the people who plan to kidnap a children and are about to kill him if their terms are not met suddenly have a change of heart, no it doesn't make sense that a literal embodiment of vengeance of hatred can be talked out of killing Jaime when the last thing she heard while her firstborn was dying was "Jaime Lannister sends his regards". All in all, yeah, if he lives he lives. Kinda bullshit tho.

 

Edited by frenin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Egged said:

Not only that, Jaime said the Freys should do like Arthur did against the Kingswood Brotherhood and get the smallfolks to turn against the Brotherhood. I think this is what will finish the brotherhood.

I never considered that parallel. Which the more I think about it, the more it would be fitting for Jaime's character arc. Going back to his roots as it were, back before he was jaded. Some of his internal dialogue definitely seemed to be hinting that he wanted to recapture some of that youthful idealism and romanticism. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Egged said:

Not only that, Jaime said the Freys should do like Arthur did against the Kingswood Brotherhood and get the smallfolks to turn against the Brotherhood. I think this is what will finish the brotherhood.

Good luck with that, with the Freys being hated and despised by nearly everyone in the Riverlands and in the rest of the Seven Kingdoms following their betrayal and the abominable things they did during the Red Wedding, not counting that the vast majority of them were assholes already before.

They aren't going to get the smallfolk's respect and love over the BWB anytime soon.

Edited by Terrorthatflapsinthenight9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Odej said:

Lady Stoneheart gave to Brienne a tough choice: she should take Jaime to face Stoneheart's justice or Brienne, Podrick and Ser Hyle would be hanged. At the end of ADWD, Brienne finds Jaime and tells him she found Sansa Stark, but Jaime must go along with Brienne to rescue Sansa or the Hound will kill her.

Brienne is a kind, loyal and honorable girl. A true knight. It's not like her to do such thing, but she's doing it to save Podrick. But sending Jaime unblinking to his death doesn't seem like something Brienne would do either.

Will Jaime figure out she is lying? Will she tell him? She keeps the lie, Jaime will face Stone and then? What do you speculate about it?

They have at least a day's ride ahead of them, and Brienne's story is so full of holes that it is inconceivable that Jaime won't figure it out. One lie begets another, so Brienne will have to lie and lie and lie until one lie rips up another.

How did you find Sansa? Where did she go after the wedding? How did the Hound get her? What does the Hound want with me? Sure, she could just say I don't know, I don't know, but that starts to fall flat as well. Jaime will want to know everything that happened to her since they parted in KL, and he knows (or thinks he knows) that the Hound has been raiding in and around Harrenhal, so what's he doing in Pennytree, a good hundred leagues away?

So I think that by the time they reach Stoneheart, Brienne will have come clean with her story and they will have hatched a plan -- or it will be a repeat of their trip to KL and they'll never get there at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, Egged said:

Not only that, Jaime said the Freys should do like Arthur did against the Kingswood Brotherhood and get the smallfolks to turn against the Brotherhood. I think this is what will finish the brotherhood.

Shining hero Arthur Dayne, whose deeds were song in all corners of the Realm and is beloved and admired even in death vs a family whose very own name has already passed to folklore as synonymous of betrayal, murder and deception...

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anyway this is a lose-lose situation for Brienne, if she doesn't deliver Jaime to Lady Stoneheart Podrick will die and she will break her oath to Catelyn, and if she really delivers Jaime he will most likely die unless they manage to make a deal with LS or if she ends up helping him escape but that could cause her to die in his or Podrick's stead. 

And the two don't have a chance of winning against the BWB, especially with Jaime still being far from having become as good with his left hand than he was with his right.

And whatever the result of these two's encounter with Lady Stoneheart is, it's very unlikely to end LSH's story as she still has many scores to settle with the Freys, especially with the Late Weasel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Are you thinking more Celine Dion, or Huey Lewis & the News? ;)

 

Lol!

Maybe not that far! Just something beautiful like this time Brienne being the one who saves Jaime, maybe even at the perceived cost of her own honor. Jaime's story does seem to have a recurring theme of keeping to your oaths doesn't always mean doing the right thing. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that the only character who's at risk of not surviving the encounter is Brienne, even though things look dark for Jamie right now. Jamie and Stoneheart have too many loose threads in my mind to get cut off here. Might the cow get sacrificed? That's what gets done to them, isn't it?  I think that the unjust death of Brienne would have a huge impact on Jamie (especially if it was under the auspices of Stoneheart's 'justice') and I think that he's the most relevant character of the 3. Brienne might really only be in the story for Jamie's sake anyway so we might have been coming to this point for some time.

Any readers or watchers of LML might see a lot of interesting elements coming together in this meeting. That's what I was kind of nodding at when I callously referred to Brienne as 'the cow'. Trust me, I love Brienne.

Would Jamie die here?  My instinct is no, but I didn't believe they'd ever kill Ned either.

Podrick... I wonder if the fate of Podrick Payne will impact the relationship between Tyrion and Jamie in another book or two when they finally get a chance to finish the conversation from inside the walls. What that fate may be I'm at a complete loss to guess at beyond he's either dead or not... ok in this story that's kind of a false dichotomy. Pod could potentially clear Tyrion of Joffrey's killing though before the end, or Jamie might do something unnecessarily heroic to save Pod that could affect Tyrion when he hears of it... (but then Brienne's got to live to tell the tale...)

 

TLDR

I have no idea

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I never considered that parallel. Which the more I think about it, the more it would be fitting for Jaime's character arc. Going back to his roots as it were, back before he was jaded. Some of his internal dialogue definitely seemed to be hinting that he wanted to recapture some of that youthful idealism and romanticism. 

Quote

Jaime found Ser Ilyn honing his greatsword. "It's time," he told the man. The headsman rose and followed, his cracked leather boots scraping against the steep stone steps as they went down the stair. A small courtyard opened off the armory. Jaime found two shields there, two halfhelms, and a pair of blunted tourney swords. He offered one to Payne and took the other in his left hand as he slid his right through the loops of the shield. His golden fingers were curved enough to hook, but could not grasp, so his hold upon the shield was loose. "You were a knight once, ser," Jaime said. "So was I. Let us see what we are now."

Ilyn coming to Pod's rescue.

Edited by Egged
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

I think that the only character who's at risk of not surviving the encounter is Brienne, even though things look dark for Jamie right now. Jamie and Stoneheart have too many loose threads in my mind to get cut off here.

Odd logic, since last time I checked, Stoneheart has been dead, and a zombie, since STORM.  Yet she continues to pursue her "loose ends".

9 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

I think that the unjust death of Brienne would have a huge impact on Jamie

Would zombie Brienne slaying (and zombifying) the kingslayer, count as a huge impact?

9 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Brienne might really only be in the story for Jamie's sake anyway so we might have been coming to this point for some time.

I think her story arc primarily relates to Sandor.

9 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Trust me, I love Brienne.

You may have to console yourself with the idea that in the afterlife, Brienne has become more beautiful, as foreshadowed by Jaime's weirwood dream.  And the dead continue to appear in dreams and visions.

But zombie Brienne is not really Brienne, just as Stoneheart is not really Catelyn.  Zombie Brienne will be hideous.

9 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Would Jamie die here?  My instinct is no, but I didn't believe they'd ever kill Ned either.

At least Ned did not come back as a zombie.  I think Jaime will not be so lucky.

9 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Podrick... I wonder if the fate of Podrick Payne will impact the relationship between Tyrion and Jamie in another book or two when they finally get a chance to finish the conversation from inside the walls. What that fate may be I'm at a complete loss to guess at beyond he's either dead or not...

I think he is dead.  He will continue to be relevant, in that when a mystery knight appears with a mystery squire, readers may think it is Brienne and Pod, when it is actually Sandor and Ned Dayne.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

They have at least a day's ride ahead of them,

Not any more.   Jaime went for a day's ride, and now has been missing for weeks.  Whatever happened, happened.  And we missed it.

15 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

and Brienne's story is so full of holes that it is inconceivable that Jaime won't figure it out. One lie begets another, so Brienne will have to lie and lie and lie until one lie rips up another.

How did you find Sansa? Where did she go after the wedding? How did the Hound get her? What does the Hound want with me? Sure, she could just say I don't know, I don't know, but that starts to fall flat as well. Jaime will want to know everything that happened to her since they parted in KL, and he knows (or thinks he knows) that the Hound has been raiding in and around Harrenhal, so what's he doing in Pennytree, a good hundred leagues away?

Before any of that can happen, something like this will happen (I mean, has happened), as foreshadowed in one of Brienne's fever death dreams:

"Lord Renly was ahead of her, her sweet smiling king. He was leading her horse through the trees. Brienne called out to tell him how much she loved him, but when he turned to scowl at her, she saw that he was not Renly after all. Renly never scowled. He always had a smile for me, she thought . . . except . . .  "Cold," her king said, puzzled, and a shadow moved without a man to cast it, and her sweet lord's blood came washing through the green steel of his gorget to drench her hands."

Renly who is not Renly is of course Jaime, leading her horse though the trees as they go allegedly to find Sandor.   The shadow that slays him is her own "shadow" -- the wight she has become.

15 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

So I think that by the time they reach Stoneheart, Brienne will have come clean with her story and they will have hatched a plan -- or it will be a repeat of their trip to KL and they'll never get there at all.

They are not going to Stoneheart.  That would mean breaking her oath and killing Jaime anyway.  Either she breaks her oath, and saves Jaime by not going to Stoneheart.  Or she keeps her oath and slays Jaime herself.  Her mission is "take the sword and slay the kingslayer" not "take the rope and tie up the kingslayer and bring him to me.

Which will she do?

"She touched the hilt of her sword, the sword that he had given her. Oathkeeper."

Yup!  She's going to do it.  Sorry guys.  I know you're all in denial. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ser Jaime hasn't harmed any Stark except for Bran, whom he crippled.  But does Lady Stoneheart know?  In the TV show Bran has been possessed by the Three-Eyed Crow and just ignores this fact, but I think that is too hopeful/positive for GRRM (at least I hope).  Since then, Ser Jaime has been a loyal double agent for the Starks by sending and aiding Lady Brienne in her quest to find and save Sansa and Arya Stark.

Lady Brienne also doesn't know Ser Jaime crippled Bran Stark.  Also Lady Brienne has been loyal to her oath of service to Lady Catelyn Stark, and by default, Lady Stoneheart.

My guess is Lady Stoneheart will order Lady Brienne freed and give her or accompany her on her quest to the north to save Sansa and Arya (neither should know that Arya is in assassin training in Essos now).  This should be OK unless Bran returns from beyond the Wall before the White Walkers breach it...

So if Lady Stoneheart meets Bran before the White Walkers invade the North, I would suspect they would hold off on vengeance until after the White Walkers are beaten.  If before, I think they will use Lady Brienne to lure Ser Jaime to them, but I suspect Ser Jaime, being changed since he lost his sword hand, would offer his services to Bran, who would accept in order to have a permanent bodyguard.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, SerDerrick said:

Ser Jaime hasn't harmed any Stark except for Bran, whom he crippled.  But does Lady Stoneheart know?

Yes, she does. Catelyn already suspected that Cersei and Jaime had something to do with Bran's fall. In ACOK, she confronts Jaime and he confesses.

27 minutes ago, SerDerrick said:

Lady Brienne also doesn't know Ser Jaime crippled Bran Stark. 

She knows it. Brienne was on guard duty while Catelyn interrogated Jaime and listened the talk. In ASOS she throws it in Jaime's face.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Not really. I mean how many people can that happen to before it loses its weight? A zombie Jamie could break the tale.

I've read quite a few effective tales where the undead continue to multiply, swelling their ranks with the living, and returning changed, horrible and different.    I understand that some people don't want to read that kind of story.  But I have to wonder, why did  they ever read past the prologue of AGOT?

I find your "Not Jaime!  Anyone but Jaime!" reaction curious, not the least because so many on these forums seem to agree with it.  I doubt it is a perspective that many original book readers of AGOT could have anticipated sympathizing with.

Which may be part of GRRM's problem at this point.  The middle portion of the story has become so diffuse that many of the original fans have lost patience and drifted away, and so many of the few who remain think that Brienne and Jaime are now the stars of the show.

Certainly, GRRM has had trouble coping with the middle portion of his story.  One can still find, on certain websites, many critical reviews from fans who felt that GRRM was losing the plot and trying the patience.  Perhaps, on some level, the story is "broken" to some extent no matter what GRRM does.  But YMMV.  

Personally, I do not think that Jaime's death and zombiehood will break the story.  It is his continued presence as a POV character that threatens to break the story.  And I think that, now, is finally over.  Jaime, like Stoneheart, will never get another POV chapter.  

Edited by Mister Smikes
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Not really. I mean how many people can that happen to before it loses its weight? A zombie Jamie could break the tale.

It's kinda already happened too many times with Stoneheart. Martin's already ruined one character for no gain in Catelyn. One would hope that this talk of a progression of zombies will remain exclusive to places like fanfiction.net. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

It's kinda already happened too many times with Stoneheart. Martin's already ruined one character for no gain in Catelyn. One would hope that this talk of a progression of zombies will remain exclusive to places like fanfiction.net. 

Why, then, promise such things in the prologue?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...