Val, Morna and Jon of House Weirwood

[kissdbyfire]

On 1/27/2022 at 2:54 PM, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

I don't know what a Wildling warrior witch's function really is,

Sounds like a skill set that might come in handy in some situations. Like helping someone heal from… oh I don’t know, but let’s say stab wounds.

Edited January 11, 2023 by kissdbyfire

[sweetsunray]

On 1/27/2022 at 4:47 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

 

While most Westerosi houses are Agnatic-Cognatic(male preferred over female) or perhaps even Agnatic(male only) in few cases with some Dornish practicing True Cognatic(eldest inherits regardless of sex), since in all three instances we see the Weirwood CoA it is borne by women, this lost house is most likely an enatic(female only succession), or enatic-cognatic(female preferred over male) one.

With Lyanna, Morna and Val all bearing the same arms, they are likely from that same, possibly lost, house making Lyanna's son Jon likely related to Morna as well as Val.

 

I would mention House Mormont having been founded (or gain importance and power) under a woman's rule and they're repeating it. They use a little lie to mask it for the rest of the North and Westeros: they claim bears father their children. They have the lady with the axe, child and bearskin at their hall. Maege claims her daughters were fathered by a bear. Dacey has no known children. Alysane has a son and daughter and also claims they were fathered by a bear. There are no known husbands. There is no evidence they are widowed either. And while skinchanging is a thing on Planetos, skinchanging a bear while it's mating with another bear would not make the skinchanger preggers all of a sudden. But it works. No man is wedding them and making them lose their house name. And nobody even thinks of calling Maege's daughters or Alysanne's children "bastards". They all get to be named Mormonts and are recognized as such.

Hmmm, what pelt was Val wearing again? A snowbear pelt.

[Darth Sidious]

The black and white symbol is death. From the House of Black & White, House Of The Undying, etc. A union of Jon the Black and Val the White can mean the death of Westeros. I don’t think we will see this union unless Val too becomes a wight. 

[Corvo the Crow]

8 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Sounds like a skill set that might come in handy in some situations. Like helping someone heal from… oh I don’t know, but let’s say stab wounds. /cdn-cgi/mirage/d061fbc8a99b74d9127f1b0a19a8d29641ec2a7e3541937299ee1540bc7d0bf1/1280/https://asoiaf.westeros.org/uploads/emoticons/default_smoking.gif

Morna swears to be Jon’s man or woman, whatever he prefers.
 

Quote

Howd Wanderer swore his oath upon his sword, as nicked and pitted a piece of iron as Jon had ever seen. Devyn Sealskinner presented him with a sealskin hat, Harle the Huntsman with a bear-claw necklace. The warrior witch Morna removed her weirwood mask just long enough to kiss his gloved hand and swear to be his man or his woman, whichever he preferred. And on and on and on.

But what function would a woman serve to the head of an order known to have sworn to celibacy? None, right? Nope, we see women in the series, wildlings especially, fill many roles besides bearing children. Healers for one. 
 

Quote

The black wool cloak of a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch," said the King-beyond-the-Wall. "One day on a ranging we brought down a fine big elk. We were skinning it when the smell of blood drew a shadow-cat out of its lair. I drove it off, but not before it shredded my cloak to ribbons. Do you see? Here, here, and here?" He chuckled. "It shredded my arm and back as well, and I bled worse than the elk. My brothers feared I might die before they got me back to Maester Mullin at the Shadow Tower, so they carried me to a wildling village where we knew an old wisewoman did some healing. She was dead, as it happened, but her daughter saw to me. Cleaned my wounds, sewed me up, and fed me porridge and potions until I was strong enough to ride again. And she sewed up the rents in my cloak as well, with some scarlet silk from Asshai that her grandmother had pulled from the wreck of a cog washed up on the Frozen Shore. It was the greatest treasure she had, and her gift to me." He swept the cloak back over his shoulders. "But at the Shadow Tower, I was given a new wool cloak from stores, black and black, and trimmed with black, to go with my black breeches and black boots, my black doublet and black mail. The new cloak had no frays nor rips nor tears . . . and most of all, no red. The men of the Night's Watch dressed in black, Ser Denys Mallister reminded me sternly, as if I had forgotten. My old cloak was fit for burning now, he said.

 

 

[Corvo the Crow]

A small thing that occured to me, besides Lyanna being his mother, another proof of Jon's connection to this matrilineal house would be... Ghost, his albino direwolf whose coloring is that of a weirwoods. Which makes me wonder if Brynden Bloodraven was also connected to this house of First (Wo)Men through his mother.

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

A small thing that occured to me, besides Lyanna being his mother, another proof of Jon's connection to this matrilineal house would be... Ghost, his albino direwolf whose coloring is that of a weirwoods. Which makes me wonder if Brynden Bloodraven was also connected to this house of First (Wo)Men through his mother.

“Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre’s. He had a weirwood’s eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they’d found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.”

Well, more importantly than being a Targ bastard, Bloodraven  is a Blackwood bastard. 

[Corvo the Crow]

9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Well, more importantly than being a Targ bastard, Bloodraven  is a Blackwood bastard. 

I was going to add that quote as well because I believe Mel is Bloodraven's daughter, but ended up not doing it because it's a wholly different discussion, but if she is indeed Bloodraven's daughter and Bloodraven is connected to this house, then it could lead to something interesting.

[kissdbyfire]

10 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I was going to add that quote as well because I believe Mel is Bloodraven's daughter, but ended up not doing it because it's a wholly different discussion, but if she is indeed Bloodraven's daughter and Bloodraven is connected to this house, then it could lead to something interesting.

I don’t believe she is… in fact, I very much doubt she is. There are no clues or hints whatsoever to support it. IMHO this is one of those things where readers think of a desired or “cool” outcome, then work backwards to try to prove it. 

[Corvo the Crow]

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t believe she is… in fact, I very much doubt she is. There are no clues or hints whatsoever to support it. IMHO this is one of those things where readers think of a desired or “cool” outcome, then work backwards to try to prove it. 

Heartshaped faces, for starters, are only mentioned a few times and Shiera, known lover of Bloodraven, is one of those very few people. Albinos are also another example, hair dyes exist in planetos, but colored lenses doesn't. Magic is another, Shiera is believed to have dabbled in the arts... 

[kissdbyfire]

12 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Heartshaped faces, for starters, are only mentioned a few times and Shiera, known lover of Bloodraven, is one of those very few people. Albinos are also another example, hair dyes exist in planetos, but colored lenses doesn't. Magic is another, Shiera is believed to have dabbled in the arts... 

who’s the albino besides BR? 

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

who’s the albino besides BR? 

Yeah I think unless BR had a child with another Albino the chances of inheriting would be super slim because the lady would have to be carrying the right recessive genes or there would have to be a chance mutation.

[LongRider]

On 1/11/2023 at 2:43 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Sounds like a skill set that might come in handy in some situations. Like helping someone heal from… oh I don’t know, but let’s say stab wounds.

Set a bit of precedence, wouldn't it?  

edt: Mance, wounded, not cut by knives but cut by shadowcat claws.  Wounds very similar to to stab wounds, plus, from the amount of red silk needed to patch his cloak, more of them and apparently deeper too.  Also healed nicely by a wise woman's daughter.     

Edited February 26, 2023 by LongRider

[Corvo the Crow]

22 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

who’s the albino besides BR? 

Melisandre. Red hair doesn't mean much as it can be dyed.

 

19 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yeah I think unless BR had a child with another Albino the chances of inheriting would be super slim because the lady would have to be carrying the right recessive genes or there would have to be a chance mutation.

BR had to get a set from both his parents, so if he has children with Shiera a possible carrier, inbred as these children are, there's a chance of them being albino.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Corvo the Crow said:

BR had to get a set from both his parents

It could have been due to a chance mutation though. There is no way to tell either way.

Just now, Corvo the Crow said:

he has children with Shiera a possible carrier, inbred as these children are, there's a chance of them being albino.

If Shiera is a carrier. But we don't know, and we also don't know whether BR inherited or it was just a chance mutation. If it is the latter then there is only a really small chance, if it is the former it is more likely but not guaranteed and still a relatively low chance. But even if it was, we have no way of telling whether Melisandre is their child. She doesn't have the albino appearance, her skin is not incredibly pale, her eyes are fiery red not the pink red of albinism, and her hair is red - she could be dying it but that just doesn't seem likely or there would have been a hint in her POV chapter or elsewhere. And her whole appearance could be due to a glamour anyway so...

[Corvo the Crow]

23 minutes ago, LongRider said:

edt: Mance, wounded, not cut by knives but cut by shadowcat claws.  Wounds very similar to to stab wounds, plus, from the amount of red silk needed to patch his cloak, more of them and apparently deeper too.  Also healed nicely by a wise woman's daughter.     

Which begs the question, why doesn't wildlings use shadowcat claws as weapons since they seem to do a real number on chainmail, a piece of clothing every ranger would be wearing going out ranging.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

It could have been due to a chance mutation though. There is no way to tell either way.

7 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

But being a recessive trait, it requires not one but two copies one copy not being inherited alone is a low chance, two and Bloodraven may as well have won the lottery. So even if one is a new mutation, there's a chance that he got his copy that was inherited from his father, who he shares with Shiera. 

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Corvo the Crow said:

But being a recessive trait, it requires not one but two copies one copy not being inherited alone is a low chance, two and Bloodraven may as well have won the lottery. So even if one is a new mutation, there's a chance that he got his copy that was inherited from his father, who he shares with Shiera. 

Yes but since Shiera is not albino she can be at most a carrier which, assuming it is controlled by one gene, would give at best 1/4 odds that a child would also be albino. But I think it might be controlled by multiple genes anyway.

[kissdbyfire]

17 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

It could have been due to a chance mutation though. There is no way to tell either way.

Exactly. 

23 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Melisandre. Red hair doesn't mean much as it can be dyed.

Since when is Mel an albino? 

[kissdbyfire]

@Corvo the Crow, no snark but I’m sticking to what I said up thread in this case:

IMHO this is one of those things where readers think of a desired or “cool” outcome, then work backwards to try to prove it

[Curled Finger]

Been reading this all day.  Yep, be afraid.  I admit I don't get a lot of this white woods witches stuff, but I wouldn't so there is that.  I do remember Martin saying there were inversions in ASOIAF, the good guys wear black and the bad guys wear white, meaning the Nights Watch vs the Kingsguard, but it niggles.  I have read a lot of ideas about Val being this or that and fine.  Healers will come in most handy with all that has just and is about to happen at Castle Black.  Of course, there is that repulsion Val has for Shireen that is concerning and perhaps she knows something the rest of us don't.  

I have read before about the Mormonts and Wildlings and the Mormonts and Skinchangers.  Sort of the same thing sort of.  The Mormonts are all mystery themselves and shouldn't be discounted from the list of magical families though I will be damned if I can say exactly why.   Jeor's passion for the watch coupled with Maege's return of Longclaw perhaps?  Something most hinky there.  Talking ravens?  Dreams?  Wights reanimating seeming to target the good LC?  Fierce loyalty to the Starks?  I don't know what it is, but something is very different with House Mormont.  

Sorry for the interruption.  Don't understand it all, but sure having a good time trying to.