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Aussies and NZers: Four seasons in one protest


karaddin
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Since Pax put out the call for someone else to start the next thread, I thought I'd keep the trans-Tasman spirit going even in the band choice with another classic - one I could even tie into the thread title!

Quote
Smiling as the shit comes down
You can tell a man from what he has to say
Everything gets turned around
And I will risk my neck again, again
 
You can take me where you will
Up the creek and through the mill
Like all the things you can't explain
Four seasons in one day

AT - The presence of the protesters on my route to work would certainly have me reevaluating my route as well.

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I don't think it's going to be COVID or the cops that do in the protest, it's going to be the shits. Reports are saying that, since parliament grounds are not a camping ground, conditions there, esp with the pouring rain on the weekend, are becoming rather unsanitary and there may be a major outbreak of the screaming shits before long.

If it ends up being the shiga toxin form of E. coli that could be potentially fatal or cause long term disability, including in kids. I wouldn't wish that on any protest, but if it happens it will be self-inflicted misery. For which, of course, the government will provide free health care.

@karaddin +1 respect on the thread title.

Edited by The Anti-Targ
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I’m driving to a shop with my brother, and he’s filling me in about the latest in Covid news. If you’ve read the Covid threads you may know that my SiL has become an anti-vax conspiracy nut (too much time on the internet these last two years). As are many in the Eastern European communities. According to a friend of her’s Australia has set up re-education camps for people who don’t want to be vaccinated. At first they were supposed to be protective camps for aboriginal peoples, but that was just a cover story.

Can you guys confirm the details about this terrible action being undertaken by the Australian government?

This woman wasn’t misleading us, was she?

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Australia does like making camps for foreign and indigenous people. But from what I gather Australia has its own home grown anti-vax community comprised mostly of "real" Australians, so I have my doubts that the govt has done the camp thing for those types.

Perhaps she's getting confused with the anti-vax camp that the NZ govt has set up on Parliament's front lawn. You know that was cruel and unusual punishment because they forgot to give them a toilet block.

Isn't it fascinating that the internet has, in principle, given people more access to information than ever in human history, in order to be able to learn the truth about so many things, and yet people can still be fed lies and propaganda and be completely taken in by them.

Edited by The Anti-Targ
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WA now reporting well over 100 cases per day, with a 3 day doubling trend... they've bought themselves 12 days with the continued closure which tbh is far, far better than I thought they'd do. But at this point it doesn't serve much public health benefit anymore.

To resurrect the electric vehicle discussion last thread - we've just put our money where our mouth is and put down a deposit on a full electric Volvo. Expected delivery is October / November. Should be able to do 300km+ at 100km/hr on a full charge (more at lower speeds) and can charge 10-80% in approx 30mins. With the current chargers in place, here (Adelaide) to Melbourne should be doable in not much longer than a traditional car (unless you're the type that just drives for 8hrs nonstop - personally I need to stop to pee and eat), and that'll just get better as the network improves.

Latest analysis is that you're now ahead on a emissions/km basis charging from the grid (we won't be) in every state in Australia (of course much better here in SA, also in Tas), and that'll only accelerate as more coal is shut down and more renewables brought online. Realise of course we're in a very priviliged position to be able to front load our fuel / car maintenence costs over the life of the car, and pay a steep premium on top.

Edited by Impmk2
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On 2/16/2022 at 6:22 PM, The Marquis de Leech said:

Army tow-trucks seen heading to Wellington.

A shame if they... accidentally... wrecked a few cars in the process.

According to a Rosemary Mcleod article the protesters are having catered food brought it daily. She asks, who is paying for that? And if it is more than just fish and chips I too wonder who is footing the bill for what is probably amounting to thousands of dollars each day. It is reasonable to assume there are monied interests supporting the protests for political purposes that have nothing at all to do with being opposed to mandates.

Sir Russell Coutts is also going to join the protest, and his reasoning is about the tired old talking point of "ever increasing erosion of human rights" and denigrating public health experts as "so-called experts". He's not anti-vax, so he's not a complete numpty, but it's clear he's not solely, or even perhaps mainly, motivated by COVID mandates.

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This is becoming quite serious now. The protest is growing rather than shrinking, and spreading around the country. A poll suggested 30% support throughout the country which is staggering, I thought it would be around 5-10% which is still too high to simply ignore. I would hope the level of staunch support is much lower but that is really worrying. People are subbing in for those who are heading home, basically it is becoming very entrenched.

I think the police have so far done a good job, offering free parking (and having it largely ignored) is a good way to win over the public. Sooner or later they are going to have to act on clearing the roads though. Unfortunately the politicians have already botched this up. Trevor Mallard's initial petty attacks have already been spoken about. Michael Woods speech which included...

Quote

"We feel for those people. But underneath all of that, there is a river of filth. 

"There is a river of violence and menace. There is a river of anti-Semitism. There is a river of Islamophobia. There is a river of threats to people who work in this place and our staff."

...is exactly what not to say. Do the politicians really believe these views are prevalent? This is just going to harden the resolve of all those who share some of the many different views involved in the protest but don't consider themselves intolerant. He also falls guilty of hypocrisy as he is criticising them for posting misleading information on social media.

Even Ardern lashes out at Seymore for considering talking to them, then the next day signs a document which is basically a copy and paste of what his own terms were.

Sooner or later Covid itself is going to run through the protest, we are getting up to around 50 known cases (real number will be much higher) a day in the Wellington region. Once it does this is going to turn into a mass spreading event many of whom are unvaccinated and clearly won't follow isolation protocols.

They really do need to come up with a proper plan, I only know it is going to be much harder now to end this than when it started.

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Many? I would say most are unvaccinated. Yes there are vaxed people in the crowd, and if the poll is to be believed a lot of vaxed people are supportive of the anti-mandate protest. Personally I would say look what's been happening in Denmark since 1 Feb before you decide to be a firm opponent of mandates and restrictions. It looked like the omicron wave might be over there coming up to the end of January, but it has stubbornly persisted in terms of cases, hospital admissions and death. Can the removal of almost all restrictions and controls be blamed? I dunno, but it doesn't seem to have helped. It certainly does not support a case for removing restrictions.

Oh yeah, and a few bad eggs and all that, the "vast majority" of protesters are peaceful etc. But a friend who is a postie who's run includes streets around parliament witnessed some middle age dudes harrassing a couple of highschool girls telling the girls to pull up their skirts. He gave them what for to shut them up. But really, so many anecdotes of harassment at different times by different people. If it's just a few bad eggs then they are very, very active bad eggs, and if the people who claim to speak for the protest are claiming peaceful action, then where it the self-policing to make those bad eggs persona non grata and send them packing?

Part of the all parties parliamentary statement:

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“There will be no dialogue with protesters currently occupying the Parliamentary precinct and surrounding areas until the protest returns to one within the law, including the clearing of all illegally parked vehicles that are blocking streets, the removal of unauthorised structures, and the cessation of the intimidation of Wellingtonians,” the statement said.

Parliament is not even calling for an end to the protest before discussion can be had. Just for all unlawful elements and harassment to cease. Protest itself remains lawful.

Edited by The Anti-Targ
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I'm not exactly super sympathetic to the protests, particularly when I think its pretty clear that there's astroturfing money behind these happening across the western world, but I do think handling them is a very delicate matter. And the health measures have pushed up against the boundaries of government power which is legitimate - the strongest justification for pushing up against the limits is when there is an actual clear public safety risk at play. That said I think at times the governments, at least in Aus, have gotten the measures wrong and crossed that line which just adds to the delicacy of the situation in handling protests. 

I don't want to be comfortable with the precedent of violating rights to shut down protests against government violating rights. I'd actually say thats probably one of the primary goals of the money behind this shit, the measures Trudeau passed this week allowing banks to freeze accounts without going through the courts for example is something I think is going to backfire spectacularly over the medium to long term.

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So far our govt hasn't passed any law that would violate an existing right for the protesters, and indeed none of the laws that the protesters are violating, which would be used to enforce a clear out have anything to do with COVID measures. the protester's vehicles are parked illegally, and camping on parliament grounds is not lawful, since parliament grounds are not a free camping area. People have a right to access parliament grounds during opening hours, they have no right to stay there overnight. And as far as i know harassing members of the public is in the very least being a public nuisance. I say enforce laws that have been on the books forever. That should not be a controversial position.

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I'm not too worried about that 30%. It's from a notoriously unreliable polling company, and if I had to hazard a guess, most public "support" is less about vaccine mandates and more about right-wingers wanting the protestors to embarrass Jacinda (plus a handful of the Extreme Left, who think that any anti-government protest must be supported, even if it's involving honest-to-god fascists). Meanwhile, of course, the vast majority of New Zealanders despise the bastards.

My biggest complaint right now lies with the Police, whom I'm starting to suspect of collaboration with the protestors. The ineptness of Andrew Coster is truly staggering.

 

 

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Indeed, how is it that they let things like showers be set up at bus stops right under their nose. All of that "infrastructure" is illegal and should not be allowed to go up, let alone be left in place to further entrench the protest.

And we now even have famous (in New Zealand) people posting those Nuremberg trial hangings as veiled threats to journalists who are critical of the protest and promoting vaccination. The threat of Nuremberg-style trials of politicians and media has been part of the conspiracy and anti-vax rhetoric for most of this pandemic.

Edited by The Anti-Targ
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If you watched any of the live feed from Ottawa, the amount of abuse directed at reporters was amazing. Protesters seem shameless these days. 50,000 people live in downtown Ottawa and people reported they were afraid to go outside because, you know, they wore masks, and had abuse hurled at them if they showed up near the protest zone.

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There is a litany of unlawful activity going on that if committed by individuals or small groups would see people fined or imprisoned, but somehow put together any large enough group and the system is powerless to do anything about it. Kinda shows the fragility of social order. If you break the right laws, in the right way, in the right numbers, and against the right people ain't much can be done to stop it.

Interesting how the leader of the opposition gave a big speech demanding mandates and restrictions start to get dropped immediately...

 

...after omicron has come off its peak. Which is exactly what the govt has signaled it would do anyway. Good to know they are all on the same page.

I think the govt should also make some vaccination targets, since this thing is going to be endemic vaccination is always going to be an important bulwark against seasonal flare ups. So I think a national target for the whole population of 85% (a number pulled out of my arse somewhat, but it is just under the % of the population that would be double jabbed if everyone (incl the 5-11s) who have been single vaxed gets their second jab. I would also wan to see at least 75% of the people who are eligible for the booster get one as well. We're at 53% boosted with substantial numbers getting boosted daily so it should get there pretty naturally. If we hit those numbers then I think there is a decent chance of omicron just having the one peak.

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Now we are getting stuff like this happening

This is completely out of line from the police officer and unfortunately it just makes the police look worse and the protesters look better. This will just galvanise them when I was getting the impression the more moderate base was starting to waver.

 

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