Heresy 242 Jon Stark

[LongRider]

58 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

As for what BR wants: I really vacillate on him. In the novellas, he's clearly the guy who's willing to do terrible things for the good of the realm. To basically sacrifice himself. But he and the Children seem really creepy--and remind me of the Undying.

Interesting that you see the CoF similar to the Undying, I don't see that but would like hear why you think so.  See the CoF as creepy, well yes, with half-dead little greenseers in their little thrones and BR telling Bran that the CoF can have 2nd lifes in the ravens for 'long years.'  And what is the CoF agjenda?  It's as hidden as they are.  (to me anyway.)   Signing off for the night.  Perhaps more tomorrow.     

[LynnS]

Joe Magician has some interesting ideas about the nature and origin of the Others.  That they can exist in more than one state:  as a cold mist or white shadow with teeth; as described by Tormund; or in a solid state made of ice and cold and snow.  That it's in their power to transform from one state to the other.   Sam breaks the spell when he plinks Ser Puddles with obsidian but after melting, he turns back into a mist.  So it's uncertain if Sam has actually put and end to Ser Puddles for good.  We know there is a transfer of heat as the obsidian is too cold to handle, so I wonder if something of the Other is trapped permanently in the stone.  This might account for why we have only seen six or seven so far.

He also speculates that the original Others were the Warg Kings and they account for Old Nan's story of the Others mating with women and producing half-human children, passing on the warg/skinchanging gene.  He thinks they had equivalent abilities to GSeers and they were recruited by the COTF when the Andals arrived and started slaughtering the children again.  They were given the form and powers of White Walker to fight on behalf of the COTF and filled with hate and vengeance.. 

We get into timelines issues but this sounds a good working theory to me, since the Warg Kings were eliminated, all their men were killed and their women taken.  Hence, the Starks then became the new Warg Kings/Kings of Winter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3sX3tCiOb8

 

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Joe Magician has some interesting ideas about the nature and origin of the Others.  That they can exist in more than one state:  as a cold mist or white shadow with teeth; as described by Tormund; or in a solid state made of ice and cold and snow.  That it's in their power to transform from one state to the other.   Sam breaks the spell when he plinks Ser Puddles with obsidian but after melting, he turns back into a mist.  So it's uncertain if Sam has actually put and end to Ser Puddles for good.  We know there is a transfer of heat as the obsidian is too cold to handle, so I wonder if something of the Other is trapped permanently in the stone.  This might account for why we have only seen six or seven so far.

He also speculates that the original Others were the Warg Kings and they account for Old Nan's story of the Others mating with women and producing half-human children, passing on the warg/skinchanging gene.  He thinks they had equivalent abilities to GSeers and they were recruited by the COTF when the Andals arrived and started slaughtering the children again.  They were given the form and powers of White Walker to fight on behalf of the COTF and filled with hate and vengeance.. 

We get into timelines issues but this sounds a good working theory to me, since the Warg Kings were eliminated, all their men were killed and their women taken.  Hence, the Starks then became the new Warg Kings/Kings of Winter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3sX3tCiOb8

 

This of course is pretty much what I've been arguing for a long time now and emphasises the importance of getting somebody on the inside. Bran is obviously in a position to learn but I don't see him doing it on his own. Rather I see it as a collective return of the Starks to their roots - beginning with Jon

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

I take your point--Varamyr is clearly significant. Shows a side of what Bran could have become. Could still become.

But really seems like Martin has been showing the various ways "second life" works for a while now: Others and Wights in Game. More Others and the Undying in Clash. Beric and Coldhands in Storm.

Then, in Dance, we get a whole bunch: Varamyr, Stoneheart, Coldhands again, and Bran: seeing souls in animals, climbing around in Hodor, seeing the Children "plugged in" to trees. Given that, seems like Varamyr's prologue could  be a warning for Bran.

Plus, there's Jon's long-recurring dream, which we hear about in Game: being called against his will into the crypt and seeing the Kings of Winter rise. Jon only sees this part of the dream AFTER they find Othor and Flowers. That seems like the dream is tied to the finding of the wights. An answer to the wights: raise the Starks, waiting in their completely unique crypt. And in that dream, Jon makes no mention of the old kings looking like ice-beasties. No matter how freaked out Jon is by the nightmare, really seems like he'd remember if the Kings looked like ice. If the people he's waking are Others.

Right--but this seems like it's tied to the lessons we are seeing Bran learn (or not learn) about second life, morality, etc. 

And, again: Varamyr is not a Stark. Not related to all those strangely crypted bodies in Winterfell. There is something unique about Stark dead. Varamyr cannot go back to his body. But we know both Beric and Stoneheart can--it is workable. So, what if that body is a Stark?

And, given your point about Jon's whopping inexperience compared to Varamyr, really think it's more likely Bran would make himself an ice body (or be tempted to). Bran, not Jon, has dreamed of being Symeon Star Eyes--likely an Other. Bran, not Jon, looks to use/create bodies that are not his own. Bran, not Jon, has practice.

If anyone's going to make an ice body in the series, showing us how to do it, my money would be on Bran--not newbie Jon. That would be just as radical--and make a lot more sense, given Bran's interest in Symeon and his talent/practice.

Why kill Jon? To have him raise the dead of Winterfell. Like he's been dreaming of since Game. 

Bran's making an ice body would show us all the things you suggest. Be just as radical--and fit with his character and earlier ideas.

But Jon's dreams, when they come, what he sees and doesn't see (no Ice People in the crypts)--really, really seems like Jon is more likely to be a different kind of undead altogether. A unique one--like Coldhands. Not a wight. Not an Other (they aren't unique). Something much more rare. And very Stark.

I don't think the dream [dreams?] literally foreshadow raising the dead kings in Winterfell. Rather its not a matter of him being rejected by them, but his fighting against joining them. R+L=J may be true but the importance of it is that Jon is the son of Lya Stark 

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

This of course is pretty much what I've been arguing for a long time now and emphasises the importance of getting somebody on the inside. Bran is obviously in a position to learn but I don't see him doing it on his own. Rather I see it as a collective return of the Starks to their roots - beginning with Jon

Yes, absolutely.  Joe Magician doesn't go as far as  extending an association between the Starks and White Walkers..  That might be too heretical.    It rubs up against the notion that Jon is a firey dragon, rather than an icy dragon.

[Sly Wren]

11 hours ago, LongRider said:

Interesting that you see the CoF similar to the Undying, I don't see that but would like hear why you think so.

Been so long since I re-read that section. But off the top of my reckless head:

The trees of the Undying (the shade of the evening trees) remind me of the weirwoods. The house of the Undying is all shadows and death--not unlike the cave: darkness, bones, the almost zombie-fied Children. They feed Dany the Shade--the Children give Bran that paste. 

Maybe they aren't the "same"--but they seem to echo each other.

11 hours ago, LongRider said:

See the CoF as creepy, well yes, with half-dead little greenseers in their little thrones and BR telling Bran that the CoF can have 2nd lifes in the ravens for 'long years.'  And what is the CoF agjenda?  It's as hidden as they are.  (to me anyway.)   Signing off for the night.  Perhaps more tomorrow.     

I got theories. I got fears. Got no certainties. 

[LongRider]

8 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

The trees of the Undying (the shade of the evening trees) remind me of the weirwoods. The house of the Undying is all shadows and death--not unlike the cave: darkness, bones, the almost zombie-fied Children. They feed Dany the Shade--the Children give Bran that paste. 

Thanks for the answer, there are similarities.

 

[Sly Wren]

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

Joe Magician has some interesting ideas about the nature and origin of the Others. 

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

This of course is pretty much what I've been arguing for a long time now and emphasises the importance of getting somebody on the inside. Bran is obviously in a position to learn but I don't see him doing it on his own. Rather I see it as a collective return of the Starks to their roots - beginning with Jon

With you both on the state of the Others--a very workable theory.

And I also see it as a collective: to get back to the Last Hero (before he fell--IMHO). They taught Brandon a "song"--how that helps. What that will lead to: we are still guessing unless we get Winds.

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I don't think the dream [dreams?] literally foreshadow raising the dead kings in Winterfell. Rather its not a matter of him being rejected by them, but his fighting against joining them.

But--why not be about raising the dead? The whole series calls us to realize the Westerosi dead can rise. The life is not fully gone. I agree that he's fighting against going in because "he's not a Stark."

But when he finally agrees, goes in and goes all the way down--what's the result? The Old Kings rise. Not his recent family. The original family. Because he's one of them. Because they are waiting for him. To do what?

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

R+L=J may be true but the importance of it is that Jon is the son of Lya Stark 

Absolutely. And an "old hand at justice" according to Bran in the first chapter of Game. The chapter that contrasts the Justice of a Stark vs. the Cruelty of the Others in the Prologue. 

Right from the start, Martin contrasted that justice with the Others. Contrasted Ned and Jon with the Others. Later, contrasts Dany's horrifying embrace of the Dragon with Jon's re-embracing his duty (vs. desire to join Robb). Really don't think that's setting Jon up to join the Others.

Jon sees himself reflected in the Wall. Sees the Sword of the Morning with the Wall. Yes, he thinks of the cold of the ice dragon--but he embraces duty and the defense of men. The Sword (of the Morning) and the Mirror Shield of the Wall. 

I have a hard time squaring all that with Jon becoming an Other--especially when, as you noted, he's such a newbie at skin changing.

Instead, he's an "old hand at justice."  Stark justice. Just Maid justice (that story about Galladon and how Brienne used the sword has to be there for a reason). Really think that where he's going.

But Bran--he definitely could be the next Symeon.

Edited July 28, 2022 by Sly Wren
Misplaced line.

[Black Crow]

9 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Absolutely. And an "old hand at justice" according to Bran in the first chapter of Game. The chapter that contrasts the Justice of a Stark vs. the Cruelty of the Others in the Prologue. 

Right from the start, Martin contrasted that justice with the Others. Contrasted Ned and Jon with the Others. Later, contrasts Dany's horrifying embrace of the Dragon with Jon's re-embracing his duty (vs. desire to join Robb). Really don't think that's setting Jon up to join the Others.

Ah well, while I see Jon becoming an Other, that isn't necessarily the same as "joining" the Others.

Remember Osha; Winter's got no  King

That is perhaps the trouble and the solution. It may not be a matter of defeating/destroying the Others in a big battle, but giving them the king [Jon Stark] that they need

[LongRider]

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

But--why not be about raising the dead? The whole series calls us to realize the Westerosi dead can rise. The life is not fully gone.

Being dead may not be what it used to be, but as an undead, they don't have the full agency of a living being. As for a wargs 2nd life, we are told, their spirit slowly fades until only the beast remains.   

Behind the wall, the undead are controlled for another's purpose.  The wights are controlled the Others, and CH is the errand boy of the CoF.  In Westeros, undead existence varies, Beric continued with the BWB and complained his memories of life were fading.   LS did not come back as a benign reverent but as an angry spirit seeking only revenge. 

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Right from the start, Martin contrasted that justice with the Others. Contrasted Ned and Jon with the Others. Later, contrasts Dany's horrifying embrace of the Dragon with Jon's re-embracing his duty (vs. desire to join Robb). Really don't think that's setting Jon up to join the Others.

I don't see Jon joining the Others, he has identified his purpose of protecting the realms of men and he can't do that as an undead.  What I can see as a possibility, Jon the man who knows his purpose and is willing to go against tradition to fulfill his vows, and more.

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Bran is obviously in a position to learn but I don't see him doing it on his own. Rather I see it as a collective return of the Starks to their roots

I don't see the Others as the roots of the Starks.  

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by LongRider

[Black Crow]

29 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Being dead may not be what it used to be, but as an undead, they don't have the full agency of a living being. As for a wargs 2nd life, we are told, their spirit slowly fades until only the beast remains...

I don't see Jon joining the Others, he has identified his purpose of protecting the realms of men and he can't do that as an undead.  What I can see as a possibility, Jon the man who knows his purpose and is willing to go against tradition to fulfill his vows, and more.

I don't see the Others as the roots of the Starks.  

GRRM: 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.”

[LongRider]

4 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

GRRM: 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.”

Right, nor did I say that. 

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

That is perhaps the trouble and the solution. It may not be a matter of defeating/destroying the Others in a big battle, but giving them the king [Jon Stark] that they need

That may be Bran's future "Now you see why you must live." Bran may see, but it was hidden from the readers.  Bran also does not need to be dead to do this.

 

[Black Crow]

As I said [or tried to say] earlier, I think there may be a a significant and widespread but obscure misunderstanding regarding the Others, to wit an assumption that the Others are a hostile race and that lots of them are on the point of invading the south.

I'm suggesting that there are only a few of them and that they were once men

Jon, I'm suggesting has a part to play, but alongside other Starks, including Bran

 

Adding: in Tolkein terms, I'm suggesting the Others are not Orcs but Nazgul

Edited July 28, 2022 by Black Crow

[alienarea]

Some random thoughts, not necessarily connectet.

- if Jon were to be brought back by the Others, they must have passed through the wall with the wildlings as mist or snow.

- if Jon moves into another body, maybe Benjen's?

- Jon is a Stark, but maybe a Targaryen, too. Can ice rise fire? Or would he come back as a squid?

 

 

[Black Crow]

I think the point here is that if R+L=J is true, the significance is not that Jon is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and destined for the Iron Throne, but is the son of Lya Stark, "a son of Winterfell" like that son of Bael the Bard

 

But for now, good night all and we'll continue this particular heresy tomorrow

Edited July 28, 2022 by Black Crow

[Frey family reunion]

We don't have any reason to believe that ice magic can do anything other than animate the dead.  It seems that fire magic is what allows for an actual resurrection to happen.  Which is probably why GRRM brings Melisandre to the Wall, and more importantly leaves her at the Wall even after Stannis departs.  She's either going to be the one who resurrects Jon a la Thoros and Beric, or, perhaps more likely, she's going be the sacrifice that allows Jon to be resurrected a la Beric and Lady Stoneheart.

Or the other possibility is that GRRM has scrapped his original plans on killing and resurrecting Jon.  Jon's storyline may be the one that GRRM had to go back and rewrite because his initial plans for Jon weren't working.

ETA:  Once again looking to the HBO series as a funhouse mirror for WOW, we have Jon being resurrected and coming to Winterfell from the north.  We also have another resurrected character, Beric, taking his brotherhood without banners and coming to Winterfell from the south.

My guess is since the show didn't create Lady Stoneheart, they used Beric in her stead.  I think in the books we're going to have Lady Stoneheart bring her bandits to Winterfell from the South to further her revenge plans against Roose and the Boltons.  Where she'll meet Jon and his Wildlings who will come from the North to have their own reckoning with Ramsay.  I think Cat and Jon have a conflict between them concerning Winterfell that they still need to resolve.

Edited July 28, 2022 by Frey family reunion

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

Or would he come back as a squid?

Best theory ever!    

[LynnS]

18 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

With you both on the state of the Others--a very workable theory.

And I also see it as a collective: to get back to the Last Hero (before he fell--IMHO). They taught Brandon a "song"--how that helps. What that will lead to: we are still guessing unless we get Winds.

Hello Sly Wren,

Sorry to take so long to reply.  I'm still adjusting to my recent move and enjoying my new home, exploring my new environs.  I have access to a salt water swimming pool!  I wouldn't exactly call it swimming, more like bouncing around.... who knew salt water was so ... floaty.

To the matter at hand...

Martin has certainly left open a lot of options.  I do like the road less travelled and the Prologue of ADWD is meant to be instructive about Jon's demise.  I don't think the big reveal is Jon's parentage.  He wasn't portrayed in the show as taking the Iron Throne regardless of RLJ and Melisandre didn't raise Jon from the dead using a firey kiss.  So what does that tell us about what D&D knew or didn't know or were at liberty to reveal?  This big questions involve the mystery of the Others and Jon/Bran are best positioned to reveal that information.  

It's also interesting that the Night King is portrayed in the show as being able to track and locate Bran my 'marking' him with touch; when in fact, it is Tree-Bran who marks Ghost-Jon with a touch at the Skirling Pass in Dance.  So I'm expecting that Bran will be able to communicate with Ghost-Jon and will have some involvement in how he is raised from the dead; if he is in fact dead.  Jon, Arya and Rickon are his instruments/agents.  

Bran ex

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"All," Lord Brynden said. "It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven … but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but men forget, and so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never shared their skin."

Old Nan had told him the same story once, Bran remembered, but when he asked Robb if it was true, his brother laughed and asked him if he believed in grumkins too. He wished Robb were with them now. I'd tell him I could fly, but he wouldn't believe, so I'd have to show him. I bet that he could learn to fly too, him and Arya and Sansa, even baby Rickon and Jon Snow. We could all be ravens and live in Maester Luwin's rookery.

 

 Before you can fly, you have to be able to see, the third eye has to be opened:

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Jon VII

It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.

He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.

Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

 

'Eyes' plural.  Jon's third eye and the eyes he's using  - Ghosts's eyes.

So I'm thinking an encounter with Bran is the next beat.

 

 

 

 

  

[Matthew.]

15 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

My guess is since the show didn't create Lady Stoneheart, they used Beric in her stead.  I think in the books we're going to have Lady Stoneheart bring her bandits to Winterfell from the South to further her revenge plans against Roose and the Boltons.  Where she'll meet Jon and his Wildlings who will come from the North to have their own reckoning with Ramsay.  I think Cat and Jon have a conflict between them concerning Winterfell that they still need to resolve.

This is an interesting take, especially since GRRM has given multiple interviews in which he cites the importance of Stoneheart--whatever her future role is, it seems certain to escalate beyond simply roving the Riverlands and hanging Freys, and if Stoneheart is a revenant carrying out Catelyn's grudges, Jon does represent one potential point of conflict.

GRRM did an interview with Esquire China after season 7 in which he was asked about differences between the show and the books, and he said the change he "most wished" that the show had not made was the removal of Stoneheart.

In terms of plot changes (as opposed to more fundamental issues with the writing, such as bad dialogue) I'm not sure that the removal of Stoneheart would top most reader's lists as the change they're most disappointed by, so it's interesting to me that she tops GRRM's list.

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

This is an interesting take, especially since GRRM has given multiple interviews in which he cites the importance of Stoneheart--whatever her future role is, it seems certain to escalate beyond simply roving the Riverlands and hanging Freys, and if Stoneheart is a revenant carrying out Catelyn's grudges, Jon does represent one potential point of conflict.

GRRM did an interview with Esquire China after season 7 in which he was asked about differences between the show and the books, and he said the change he "most wished" that the show had not made was the removal of Stoneheart.

In terms of plot changes (as opposed to more fundamental issues with the writing, such as bad dialogue) I'm not sure that the removal of Stoneheart would top most reader's lists as the change they're most disappointed by, so it's interesting to me that she tops GRRM's list.

As we've discussed already writing out characters and transferring dialogue and actions to another is pretty inevitable when adapting a story for stage or screen. GRRM doesn't have to worry about casting, scheduling and paying actors in the way that show-runners do. The trouble here is that not only is the story unfinished, but the Mummers bought into a false narrative

We know its a false narrative because having embraced R+L+J, they didn't then know to achieve an ending in which Jon Snow didn't ascend the Iron Throne or save mankind as Azor Ahai, and the trouble then was that they missed the significance of Catelyn Stoneheart's likely intervention.

Exactly how that conflict will develop I don't know but I can certainly see her fear/hatred of Jon and the threat he represents to her own children's claim to Winterfell being significant - especially if he represents the "old" Starks