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Is Ygritte a Sexual Predator?


Corvo the Crow
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24 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Aggressive, yeah

S Predator, not so much

You cannot construe something as 'aggressive flirting' (which would also qualify as predatory behavior, by the way) when she literally blackmails somebody into having sex and start a romantic relationship with them.

Just because the person in question is fifteen, constantly horny, and eventually receptive to her advances doesn't make it right. Neither does the fact that Jon doesn't view himself as a victim there.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You cannot construe something as 'aggressive flirting' (which would also qualify as predatory behavior, by the way) when she literally blackmails somebody into having sex and start a romantic relationship with them.

Just because the person in question is fifteen, constantly horny, and eventually receptive to her advances doesn't make it right. Neither does the fact that Jon doesn't view himself as a victim there.

Its not the 21st century, going by our modern morals all the characters would be evil af

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Jon is a spy, intending, at this point of the story, to betray the free folk, so he’s not really a victim.

His misgivings are based upon the vows he took, and the fact that he’ll probably have to kill Ygritte, at some point, if they become sexually involved.

So Ygritte is pressing Jon for sex, sex that Jon wants, but which he feels guilty about wanting.

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54 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Jon is a spy, intending, at this point of the story, to betray the free folk, so he’s not really a victim.

Good point!  It reminds me of that old Bob Seger song:  "I used her, she used me, neither one cared ... we were getting our share ..."

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10 hours ago, Aebram said:

In a culture where a man acquires a wife by stealing her from her family, the concept hardly even seems to apply.

There's also the point that, as Jon spares her life when he captures her, she considers he already stole her:

A Storm of Swords - Jon III

And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. "Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night."
"I never meant to steal you," he said. "I never knew you were a girl until my knife was at your throat."
 
From our pov she definitely pressures him for sex and he is conflicted because he is still a man of the NW and does not want to get too close to the enemy.  He definitely wants to, though, that's obvious.  The clincher is after the slaughter on The Fist is discovered and both The Magnar and Mance suspect Jon of being a spy but Ygritte vouches for him.
 
8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Just because the person in question is fifteen, constantly horny, and eventually receptive to her advances doesn't make it right. Neither does the fact that Jon doesn't view himself as a victim there.

The victim impact statement would be fascinating but it seems you would disregard all of it.  Where is the harm to Jon?

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3 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

There's also the point that, as Jon spares her life when he captures her, she considers he already stole her:

A Storm of Swords - Jon III

And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. "Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night."
"I never meant to steal you," he said. "I never knew you were a girl until my knife was at your throat."
 
From our pov she definitely pressures him for sex and he is conflicted because he is still a man of the NW and does not want to get too close to the enemy.  He definitely wants to, though, that's obvious.  The clincher is after the slaughter on The Fist is discovered and both The Magnar and Mance suspect Jon of being a spy but Ygritte vouches for him.
 

The victim impact statement would be fascinating but it seems you would disregard all of it.  Where is the harm to Jon?

Obviously, there’s a clash of cultural norms. By disarming Ygritte, and sparing her, Jon has already “wed” her, in the eyes of the Free Folk.

Edited by SeanF
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9 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Its not the 21st century, going by our modern morals all the characters would be evil af

But in this thread the OP implies we use modern standards to judge the character in question.

8 hours ago, SeanF said:

Jon is a spy, intending, at this point of the story, to betray the free folk, so he’s not really a victim.

His misgivings are based upon the vows he took, and the fact that he’ll probably have to kill Ygritte, at some point, if they become sexually involved.

So Ygritte is pressing Jon for sex, sex that Jon wants, but which he feels guilty about wanting.

Which is why the whole thing is ugly. Why Jon doesn't want sex doesn't matter - think about somebody harrassing a monk who actually does desire the person who is harrassing them - but still doesn't want to have sex with them because he wants to remain chaste. This would still be a textbook case of sexual harrassment.

Ygritte doesn't just constantly entice and harrass Jon by sleeping close to him when he clearly wants to be left alone ... she also lies about them having sex and that forces him to actually fuck her. He can either fuck her or risk to be killed by the wildlings.

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

Obviously, there’s a clash of cultural norms. By disarming Ygritte, and daring her, Jon has already “wed” her, in the eyes of the Free Folk.

They more or less use this as a ploy to further pressure Jon. There is no way at all that intention doesn't count in all that. Let's say I'm a wildling raider and I raid some village, capturing dozens of women. Does this mean I all 'married' them? That I now am stuck with them, have to care for them, feed them, clothe them, etc.?

Most likely not. And while polygamy is a thing among some wildlings, not all of them have lots of wives.

Jon disarmed Ygritte and then sent her away, no strings attached. They are good.

The funny thing there actually is that Jon doesn't really have a deeper or meaningful connection with Ygritte. Theirs is the perfect example for a romance or affair which works for a time almost completely on the basis of adolescent hormones running amok. Jon doesn't think Ygritte is pretty until after they start having sex - which fits with him being basically drunk on hormones.

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56 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But in this thread the OP implies we use modern standards to judge the character in question.

Which is why the whole thing is ugly. Why Jon doesn't want sex doesn't matter - think about somebody harrassing a monk who actually does desire the person who is harrassing them - but still doesn't want to have sex with them because he wants to remain chaste. This would still be a textbook case of sexual harrassment.

Ygritte doesn't just constantly entice and harrass Jon by sleeping close to him when he clearly wants to be left alone ... she also lies about them having sex and that forces him to actually fuck her. He can either fuck her or risk to be killed by the wildlings.

They more or less use this as a ploy to further pressure Jon. There is no way at all that intention doesn't count in all that. Let's say I'm a wildling raider and I raid some village, capturing dozens of women. Does this mean I all 'married' them? That I now am stuck with them, have to care for them, feed them, clothe them, etc.?

Most likely not. And while polygamy is a thing among some wildlings, not all of them have lots of wives.

Jon disarmed Ygritte and then sent her away, no strings attached. They are good.

The funny thing there actually is that Jon doesn't really have a deeper or meaningful connection with Ygritte. Theirs is the perfect example for a romance or affair which works for a time almost completely on the basis of adolescent hormones running amok. Jon doesn't think Ygritte is pretty until after they start having sex - which fits with him being basically drunk on hormones.

YMMV, but I think it does matter.  This isn't about harassing a monk who wants to remain chaste.  It's about harassing someone who (unknown to you) is already planning your death.  Jon does not specifically intend for Ygritte to die, but he is planning on betraying the wildlings to their deaths.

And, I interpret Ygritte's behaviour before Mance as mainly wishing to save Jon's life.  She expects him to give her sex, but she isn't blackmailing him at that point.

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20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The funny thing there actually is that Jon doesn't really have a deeper or meaningful connection with Ygritte. Theirs is the perfect example for a romance or affair which works for a time almost completely on the basis of adolescent hormones running amok. Jon doesn't think Ygritte is pretty until after they start having sex - which fits with him being basically drunk on hormones.

Not everyone falls in love at first sight.  People grow on one another.  As for Jon being drunk on teenage hormones or blinded by sex, his view of her changes long before they sleep together:

A Storm of Swords - Jon II

The wildlings seemed to think Ygritte a great beauty because of her hair; red hair was rare among the free folk, and those who had it were said to be kissed by fire, which was supposed to be lucky. Lucky it might be, and red it certainly was, but Ygritte's hair was such a tangle that Jon was tempted to ask her if she only brushed it at the changing of the seasons.
At a lord's court the girl would never have been considered anything but common, he knew. She had a round peasant face, a pug nose, and slightly crooked teeth, and her eyes were too far apart. Jon had noticed all that the first time he'd seen her, when his dirk had been at her throat. Lately, though, he was noticing some other things. When she grinned, the crooked teeth didn't seem to matter. And maybe her eyes were too far apart, but they were a pretty blue-grey color, and lively as any eyes he knew. Sometimes she sang in a low husky voice that stirred him. And sometimes by the cookfire when she sat hugging her knees with the flames waking echoes in her red hair, and looked at him, just smiling . . . well, that stirred some things as well.
But he was a man of the Night's Watch, he had taken a vow. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. He had said the words before the weirwood, before his father's gods. He could not unsay them . . .
 
There's your sexual predator.  A girl singing in a low husky voice and smiling at the man she is stirring things in.  He even regrets he can't, i.e. shouldn't, sleep with her.
 
19 hours ago, SeanF said:

YMMV, but I think it does matter.  This isn't about harassing a monk who wants to remain chaste.  It's about harassing someone who (unknown to you) is already planning your death.  Jon does not specifically intend for Ygritte to die, but he is planning on betraying the wildlings to their deaths.

Exactly, e.g. later on in the caves:

A Storm of Swords - Jon V

"Yes." His voice was thick. "First we'll live."
She grinned at that, showing Jon the crooked teeth that he had somehow come to love. Wildling to the bone, he thought again, with a sick sad feeling in the pit of his stomach. He flexed the fingers of his sword hand, and wondered what Ygritte would do if she knew his heart. Would she betray him if he sat her down and told her that he was still Ned Stark's son and a man of the Night's Watch?
 
Or at Greyguard:

A Storm of Swords - Jon V

If the Magnar takes Castle Black unawares, it will be red slaughter, boys butchered in their beds before they know they are under attack. Jon had to warn them, but how? He was never sent out to forage or hunt, nor allowed to stand a watch alone. And he feared for Ygritte as well. He could not take her, but if he left her, would the Magnar make her answer for his treachery? Two hearts that beat as one . . .
They shared the same sleeping skins every night, and he went to sleep with her head against his chest and her red hair tickling his chin. The smell of her had become a part of him. Her crooked teeth, the feel of her breast when he cupped it in his hand, the taste of her mouth . . . they were his joy and his despair. Many a night he lay with Ygritte warm beside him, wondering if his lord father had felt this confused about his mother, whoever she had been. Ygritte set the trap and Mance Rayder pushed me into it.
 
Of course he cares for her and the knowledge that he will betray her and likely cause her death troubles him deeply.
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