2023 College Football

[DireWolfSpirit]

Acting swiftly on tossing Tucker, that campus was not going to go through another round of sexual misconduct headlines clouding the program following the gymnastics scandal.

[Rhom]

16 hours ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Acting swiftly on tossing Tucker, that campus was not going to go through another round of sexual misconduct headlines clouding the program following the gymnastics scandal.

Sexually harassing the gal who came to talk to your team about sexual harassment was certainly a bold move.

[dbunting]

18 hours ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Acting swiftly on tossing Tucker, that campus was not going to go through another round of sexual misconduct headlines clouding the program following the gymnastics scandal.

Define swiftly. The investigation started in December and he wasn't suspended/fired until after it leaked that he was under investigation nine months later.  Report from findings wasn't even due until October and he was still coaching. They use the excuse of following the investigative process but when it leaks and people find out suddenly they are able to act swiftly.

[DireWolfSpirit]

On 9/11/2023 at 9:25 AM, dbunting said:

Define swiftly. The investigation started in December and he wasn't suspended/fired until after it leaked that he was under investigation nine months later.  Report from findings wasn't even due until October and he was still coaching. They use the excuse of following the investigative process but when it leaks and people find out suddenly they are able to act swiftly.

I would posit that acting before the investigation is concluded qualifies as swift.

What if a person was innocent and you fired them solely for an accusation?

There needs to be an investigation to determine what exactly occured doesnt there?

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

I would posit that acting before the investigation is concluded qualifies as swift.

What if a person was innocent and you fired them solely for an accusation?

There needs to be an investigation to determine what exactly occured doesnt there?

No, not really. Certainly not a criminal one.

[dbunting]

1 hour ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

I would posit that acting before the investigation is concluded qualifies as swift.

What if a person was innocent and you fired them solely for an accusation?

There needs to be an investigation to determine what exactly occured doesnt there?

But... they knew about this in Dec and only acted now because the story came out. They already knew the details in the story including him lying about some of it. They only acted now because the public found out.

[Freshwater Spartan]

As I understand it..

Only three people are supposed know the details of a ongoing title ix investigation. The accused, the accuser and the investigator. The athletic director Alan Haller  was informed that an investigation was happening in December. He was not informed of the details. This is how the process is supposed to work.

You can't suspend the Tucker in December because he might be innocent. Again you don't know any details. You also can't suspend because the accuser Brenda Tracy wanted to remain anonymous. Suspending Tucker would also raise inevitable questions that would lead to her identity being revealed. You let the investigator do their job.

In July Haller was informed that a hearing was set in October during State's bye week. You still can't suspend because you still don't know any details and you can't risk doxing the accuser. This opens the University up to a lawsuit from that end.

Only when Tracy confirmed details to the USA story can the University act to suspend Tucker because many of the details are now public knowledge.

As I see so far the administration has handled the case correctly. Suspending Tucker is the right call and they waited for the right time to do it.

Glad he is gone. He will never coach MSU again. The only variable left is how much of his 70 million plus contract he gets. 

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Freshwater Spartan said:

You can't suspend the Tucker in December because he might be innocent.

You absolutely can suspend him. Suspension of duties pending investigation is done is done all the time in things. It isn't even out of the ordinary in education. 

1 hour ago, Freshwater Spartan said:

Again you don't know any details. You also can't suspend because the accuser Brenda Tracy wanted to remain anonymous. Suspending Tucker would also raise inevitable questions that would lead to her identity being revealed. You let the investigator do their job.

This is somewhat more reasonable but you can also suspend him for no specific stated reason (the standard 'broke team rules' is reasonable here). The converse to this is that how many other people are put in danger because he isn't suspended?

 

[Freshwater Spartan]

46 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

You absolutely can suspend him. Suspension of duties pending investigation is done is done all the time in things. It isn't even out of the ordinary in education. 

This is somewhat more reasonable but you can also suspend him for no specific stated reason (the standard 'broke team rules' is reasonable here). The converse to this is that how many other people are put in danger because he isn't suspended?

 

You CAN suspend him but it doesn't mean you SHOULD. 

Pros of suspending him in December.... You get to feel self righteous.

Cons .....you now have opened yourself to wrongful termination lawsuits from the accused.  And you have opened your organization to a plethora of  lawsuits when the accuser inevitably gets uncovered. The whole point of the title IX process is to protect the accuser to make them feel safe to come forward with any harassment allegations.  This is how the process is supposed to work. 

Unlike many businesses and schools there is no world in which Tucker is suspended for breaking team rules and reporters not finding out why. MSU is one of the world's largest public universities and research institutions. MSU is high visibility. National and local press love a good MSU scandal. You suspend him Tracy absolutely gets uncovered in much quicker time than the almost 10 months it took. You send the message to future women that if they come forward protecting their identities is not a concern or high priority. Can't do that in post Nassar world.

As far as the other people in danger point...a couple of thoughts. This was not a criminal complaint.  There is no evidence that police were ever contacted and involved.   The independent investigator has to look into into the complaint. If the investigator uncovers evidence that others are in danger I am sure they are supposed to contact the  appropriate authorities.

Again the athletic director has none of this information in December. Only the investigator does. All he knows is a complaint has been filed. He learned all the details the same time everyone else did. No question he has listened to the lawyers through this whole process.

My only criticism is that they suspended him without pay. Seems a little premature before the October hearing and might open MSU to some future liability. It seems they wanted to send a message Tucker is gone. A self righteous move if you will.

 

 

[Kalbear]

47 minutes ago, Freshwater Spartan said:

You CAN suspend him but it doesn't mean you SHOULD. 

Pros of suspending him in December.... You get to feel self righteous.

You also get to look like you're getting ahead of the issue, you're protecting potential other victims, and you're siding with women in general. 

47 minutes ago, Freshwater Spartan said:

Cons .....you now have opened yourself to wrongful termination lawsuits from the accused. 

Not for a suspension, no. Suspension is not termination. 

47 minutes ago, Freshwater Spartan said:

And you have opened your organization to a plethora of  lawsuits when the accuser inevitably gets uncovered. The whole point of the title IX process is to protect the accuser to make them feel safe to come forward with any harassment allegations.  This is how the process is supposed to work. 

Can you give an example of this actually occurring as you say?

47 minutes ago, Freshwater Spartan said:

Unlike many businesses and schools there is no world in which Tucker is suspended for breaking team rules and reporters not finding out why. MSU is one of the world's largest public universities and research institutions. MSU is high visibility. National and local press love a good MSU scandal. You suspend him Tracy absolutely gets uncovered in much quicker time than the almost 10 months it took. You send the message to future women that if they come forward protecting their identities is not a concern or high priority. Can't do that in post Nassar world.

You also send the message that they take these accusations seriously and will deal with them in a timely manner, instead of when they get invariably exposed. 

47 minutes ago, Freshwater Spartan said:

As far as the other people in danger point...a couple of thoughts. This was not a criminal complaint.  There is no evidence that police were ever contacted and involved.   The independent investigator has to look into into the complaint. If the investigator uncovers evidence that others are in danger I am sure they are supposed to contact the  appropriate authorities.

Sorry; are you saying that because it's not illegal to sexually harass someone that other people aren't in danger of it?

47 minutes ago, Freshwater Spartan said:

Again the athletic director has none of this information in December. Only the investigator does. All he knows is a complaint has been filed. He learned all the details the same time everyone else did. No question he has listened to the lawyers through this whole process.

Yes, famously the lawyers for the schools are clearly concerned about the accuser's rights.

47 minutes ago, Freshwater Spartan said:

My only criticism is that they suspended him without pay. Seems a little premature before the October hearing and might open MSU to some future liability. It seems they wanted to send a message Tucker is gone. A self righteous move if you will.

I'm shocked, SHOCKED to find out that a person with the username freshwater spartan is on the side of what MSU is doing. Remarkable. 

[Freshwater Spartan]

54 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

You also get to look like you're getting ahead of the issue, you're protecting potential other victims, and you're siding with women in general. 

Sure but if you make it difficult for victims to come forward in the future and make it more likely that harassment continues in the future have you really accomplished anything?  Looks cool though.

54 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

Not for a suspension, no. Suspension is not termination. 

 

He will be terminated. Due process will be looked at. Would Tucker win that argument? Don't know. But your job  if you're Haller is to dump him quickly and cheaply as possible.

 

Can you give an example of this actually occurring as you say?

Don't work for MSU. I have heard they have had issue suspending players and victims being harassed has a result. Similar shaming incidents were cited  as being a cause in allowing the Nassar disaster then go as long as it did. Probably not good enough for you. Just trying to explain the new trauma informed process that MSU adopted as a result of Nassar.

You also send the message that they take these accusations seriously and will deal with them in a timely manner, instead of when they get invariably exposed. 

Victims of trauma don't necessarily respond that way. They tend to feel ashamed and the last thing the want is closer scrutiny. I have had women friends at MSU that have gone through this.

Sorry; are you saying that because it's not illegal to sexually harass someone that other people aren't in danger of it?

All I am saying she (Tracy) didn't file a criminal police complaint. She filed a title IX complaint.  Were Tucker accused of a more violent crime, I am sure things would have been done differently.

Yes, famously the lawyers for the schools are clearly concerned about the accuser's rights.

I'm shocked, SHOCKED to find out that a person with the username freshwater spartan is on the side of what MSU is doing. Remarkable. 

Yep love my school. Glad Tucker is gone. Doesn't change the fact that Haller handled the situation by the book according MSU's trauma informed title IX process developed after the Nassar case.  I have tried to explain the reasoning why this process is set up the way it is. Won't claim its perfect.

A self righteous approach feels good but doesn't prevent sexual harassment, minimize liability or protect the privacy of individuals involved.  

Edit....sorry tech dumb. Didn't multi quote correctly. Some of my comments got mixed with yours. Also apologies if I came off flippant and terse. You're mad. I'm mad. Everyone's mad at Tucker and wants justice.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Freshwater Spartan

[Kalbear]

17 minutes ago, Freshwater Spartan said:

Sure but if you make it difficult for victims to come forward in the future and make it more likely that harassment continues in the future have you really accomplished anything?  Looks cool though.

How does it make it difficult for victims to come forward by actively doing something important about their accusation? 

I guess I'd put it this way: you can ask the victim what they want. From what I understand they went to the press because MSU wasn't going fast enough, she was clearly okay with being exposed publicly (because she personally went to USA Today and turned over 1200 pages of documents), and she certainly thinks that it wasn't far enough. 

17 minutes ago, Freshwater Spartan said:

Yep love my school. Glad Tucker is gone.

He's suspended without pay. He's not even fired yet. 

17 minutes ago, Freshwater Spartan said:

Doesn't change the fact that Haller handled the situation by the book according MSU's trauma informed title IX process developed after the Nassar case.  I have tried to explain the reasoning why this process is set up the way it is. Won't claim its perfect.

You're claiming there's no other way to do it, and that's clearly not the case. And in this specific case that's clearly not particularly correct either given that the person coming forward was 100% fine being on the record. 

Also, let's be clear here on what he's accused of - he's accused of jacking off while on the phone to a sexual assault survivor and advocate for victims. That might not be a crime, exactly, but it's certainly not a victimless behavior. 

17 minutes ago, Freshwater Spartan said:

A self righteous approach feels good but doesn't prevent sexual harassment, minimize liability or protect the privacy of individuals involved.  

It's not a self-righteous approach. It absolutely helps show actual caring about sexual harassment and will help prevent it; a long investigation that can be ignored certainly doesn't. 

But you're right - it does minimize liability. That is a big deal to MSU. That does not remotely mean that they acted quickly or acted well. I think it is especially clear that he was suspended without pay not because he's doing a hearing, not because of the investigation culminating - but because Tracy came out and reported it. If that hadn't happened? He'd still be coaching. Heck, the president of the university and the athletic director didn't even learn about what this was about until the article came out!

Edited September 14, 2023 by Kalnak the Magnificent

[Freshwater Spartan]

3 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

How does it make it difficult for victims to come forward by actively doing something important about their accusation? 

I guess I'd put it this way: you can ask the victim what they want. From what I understand they went to the press because MSU wasn't going fast enough, she was clearly okay with being exposed publicly (because she personally went to USA Today and turned over 1200 pages of documents), and she certainly thinks that it wasn't far enough. 

Brenda Tracy expressed a desire to remain anonymous as long as possible. Reporters began picking up the story. It was going to be published with or without her participating. She chose to give USA today verification and documents so that her story would get out first coherently rather than have many news outlets publish different accounts. It was her going public that allowed Haller to suspend Tucker. It was not her preferred course of action. She's pretty pissed and probably feels some shame, which isn't what you want to happen.

3 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

He's suspended without pay. He's not even fired yet. 

 

He gone. Make no mistake about it.  (ok technically you're right he is not fired.) But really he's fired.

3 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

You're claiming there's no other way to do it, and that's clearly not the case. And in this specific case that's clearly not particularly correct either given that the person coming forward was 100% fine being on the record. 

See above. She wanted a hearing privately first, not to make national headlines.

 

Also, let's be clear here on what he's accused of - he's accused of jacking off while on the phone to a sexual assault survivor and advocate for victims. That might not be a crime, exactly, but it's certainly not a victimless behavior. 

He's a scumbag for sure.

3 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

It's not a self-righteous approach. It absolutely helps show actual caring about sexual harassment and will help prevent it; a long investigation that can be ignored certainly doesn't. 

But you're right - it does minimize liability. That is a big deal to MSU. That does not remotely mean that they acted quickly or acted well. I think it is especially clear that he was suspended without pay not because he's doing a hearing, not because of the investigation culminating - but because Tracy came out and reported it. If that hadn't happened? He'd still be coaching. Heck, the president of the university and the athletic director didn't even learn about what this was about until the article came out!

MSU paid out some of the largest settlements in history for not taking victims and accusations seriously enough. This process is all about taking victims seriously and yes avoiding liability in the future.

Again Haller did not know Tracy's allegations until her hand was forced to publish. Once the hearing happens my understanding is that it will probably be a few more weeks before the decision is published.  In a different world, Tucker may have managed to coach most of the season before being shit-canned. Its one the silver lining  in the yet another awful embarrassment for my school. We got rid of him quicker.

 

Did better but some of my comments still got mixed I think

[dbunting]

The main thing I have an issue with in this situation is that sexual harassment has victims. By the process MSU has in place it allows a potential harasser to stay in a position of power and potentially harass more victims and / or continue harassing victims that may not have come forward yet.

There needs to be an investigation of course but the nature of the complaint should supersede policy. The President of MSU should be told what the accusation is and can then decide how to proceed, to blindly wait for a 10 month investigation seems ridiculous from the outside.  

[DireWolfSpirit]

Accusation = investigation = response to the known facts.

I think the correct and responsible course was followed. I grew up next to that University and the community is pissed off over this. Thier pissed off with the coach not  MSU's response, which is  viewed as the correct action for getting rid of the guy and likely trying to deny him as much of his contract as possible due to inappropriate conduct.

They want the coach publicly hung on a tree, the wrath is very real, but its not aimed at the University.

Edited September 16, 2023 by DireWolfSpirit

[dbunting]

8 hours ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Accusation = investigation = response to the known facts.

I think the correct and responsible course was followed. I grew up next to that University and the community is pissed off over this. Thier pissed off with the coach not  MSU's response, which is  viewed as the correct action for getting rid of the guy and likely trying to deny him as much of his contract as possible due to inappropriate conduct.

They want the coach publicly hung on a tree, the wrath is very real, but its not aimed at the University.

Considering his race, our countries history, and that he feels he is being rail roaded, this is probably not the best comment to type.

[Ramsay B.]

FSU tried their hardest to lose that game but BC was having none of it. Their 17th penalty secures it for the Noles. Defense looked shaky as hell, especially the DB’s.

ETA: The Cocks are game!

Edited September 16, 2023 by Ramsay B.

[DireWolfSpirit]

On 9/16/2023 at 7:09 AM, dbunting said:

Considering his race, our countries history, and that he feels he is being rail roaded, this is probably not the best comment to type.

It is nevertheless commentary that was made to me from people in that community. 

I didnt hear any mention of his race, I dont think discriminatory attitudes would be tolerated from MSU's trustees, 6 of the 8 are female and 2 are woman of color. My sense of it is that people are just very angry and let down by Tucker for his own poor behavior. Albeit some poorly worded expressions of that (disappointment with Tucker) seems to have been made.

[Rhom]

I stayed up until 2:30 AM watching that Colorado/CSU game.

Absolutely bonkers.  These next two weeks against Oregon and USC are going to build insane hype from the media machine.

[DireWolfSpirit]

The Coach Neon situation reminds me of the Penny Hardaway at Memphis and how hes been able to recruit so well.

Young ballplayers whether hoopers or gridiron are going to be persuaded to be a part of something former champions as players are building. They want in on the legend so to speak. Dont bet against Penny or Deon, they are winners and know the paths to success.

Edited September 18, 2023 by DireWolfSpirit