Hero and Martyr: Bowen Marsh

[Raven Princling]

Oh, you've got to be kidding. Bowen Marsh is nothing, but a complete fool who would have the entire NW, and Westeros by extension, obliterated by White Walkers simply because of his stubbornness and prejudice. The day he gets his prideful head out of his arse and looks at the bigger picture is the day Jaime lays a dragon egg.

He opposed Wildlings on the Wall, clearly not understanding that the Wall NEEDS to be filled with fighters if the realm has any chance of fighting Others. And those are not myths- the Watch was attacked at Fist. The others are an actual threat and are marching South. With Westeros being in turmoil, the wildlings are needed for defense.  But Bowen is too stupid to look at the whole picture.

He opposes Satin becoming Jon's steward only because he is feminine and used to work in a brothel, although Satin has proved his skills more than once. And Night's Watch already consists of plenty murderers, rapists and so on, but it is Satin he is so opposed to.

He does not want to march against Boltons, although Ramsey made threats of obliterating the Watch (if the letter is true, but I think it is not). How was Jon supposed to react? It was a direct threat. The Watch clearly needs adjustments (wildlings arming the wall for example), because the dire situation requires it. 

Bowen probably thinks he is right but is too arrogant to get over his pride for the sake of bigger situation. He assassinates Jon, creating a bigger turmoil in the Watch during a time when Others are coming upon them. Also, Bowen is outnumbered by both Wildlings and Queensmen. By killing Jon, he signed off his own death sentence, displaying inability to think ahead once again.

Could Jon have done things better as LC? Absolutely. Was assassinating him a good decision? Absolutely not. 

[Craving Peaches]

42 minutes ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

You mistook Bowen Marsh for Jon Snow.

Unlike some people here, SeanF has reading comprehension skills, so I doubt that.

42 minutes ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Bowen was and is a very loyal and dedicated brother of the watch.

In your dreams.

42 minutes ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

A positive compliment like that cannot be applied to Jon.

Maybe not by someone with your level of irrational bias but the rest of us are perfectly capably of doing so.

42 minutes ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

It wasn't Marsh who allowed his feelings to get in the way of justice and murdered Janos Slynt.

And who did? Because we can see Jon's thoughts and so know that the lawful execution of Slynt was due to his repeated insubordination and plotting, all of which threatened to undermine the Watch in a time of crisis, not because of Jon's 'feelings'.

Has your hatred of Jon reached such a level that it interferes with your ability to comprehend written language?

[Nathan Stark]

18 hours ago, James West said:

Bowen Marsh is one of the most maligned characters in "A Song of ice and Fire."  The slander always come from a vocal segment of the fandom.  He  is a person who knowingly accepted future suffering or death to stop Jon Snow from causing further harm to the Night's Watch and Westeros.  We all seem to agree that bad things are coming his way.  He did nothing wrong and can end up a martyr.  He will not have enough men to stop the Wildlings from leaving the castle and riding to war against Roose Bolton.  

The last book scene with Bowen Marsh had the loyal steward and the other brave brothers of the Night's Watch in tears as they ended the reign of who is perhaps the worst lord commander in the history of the Night's Watch.  The assassination was a reaction to Jon's speech at the Shield Hall.  The arrival of the Pink Letter exposed Jon's surreptitious activities against Lord Roose Bolton and Westeros.  Jon's revelation and admission were damning evidence against him.  He further told the gathered crowd of his intentions to lead an army of Wildlings to attack Lord Roose.  

Bowen Marsh did what any loyal man of the watch would have done.  The assassination was not a pre-planned attack.  It was an impromptu decision made at the very last minute in order to stop a madman from leading a hastily formed army of barbarians on a raid against a noble house of Westeros.  It was not a conspiracy from the Lannisters.  Bowen was not trying to usurp Jon.  Bowen had been loyal to Jon up to the time of the latter's Shield Hall talk.

We must hope for a speedy election of a new lord commander at the wall.  Aliser is a good choice if he is still alive.  

Lol.

[Craving Peaches]

3 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

Lol.

I love how the phrase 'a vocal segment of the fandom' is used, as if they and their 'friends' aren't part of a vocal segment of the fandom dedicated to irrational Jon hatred.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I love how the phrase 'a vocal segment of the fandom' is used, as if they and their 'friends' aren't part of a vocal segment of the fandom dedicated to irrational Jon hatred.

Like it’s fine if you find Jon boring, but to say that he isn’t one of the most morally upstanding characters in the story is just plain wrong. He is probably the least selfish person in the story. And yes, that includes Daenerys.

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

Like it’s fine if you find Jon boring, but to say that he isn’t one of the most morally upstanding characters in the story is just plain wrong. He is probably the least selfish person in the story. And yes, that includes Daenerys.

I wouldn't even care if these people just admitted they don't like Jon for no reason, but then they go further than that by ignoring the text and trying to make Jon look bad by painting his adversaries as saints.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I wouldn't even care if these people just admitted they don't like Jon for no reason, but then they go further than that by ignoring the text and trying to make Jon look bad by painting his adversaries as saints.

I personally think Jon is a combination of Nissa Nissa and Lightbringer. And Dany is AAR. She is 100% the more heroic Farquhar type. “Some of you may die, but that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make” because she wants to sacrifice others for the greater good because she thinks that’s what needs to happen. Whereas Jon is 100% the type to sacrifice himself, his soul, his happiness, for the sake of the realm. I would not be shocked if Jon dies at the end sacrificing himself via Dany’s orders to end the threat of the Others.

[Nathan Stark]

18 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I love how the phrase 'a vocal segment of the fandom' is used, as if they and their 'friends' aren't part of a vocal segment of the fandom dedicated to irrational Jon hatred.

I'm still trying to figure out how these folks come out with the exact same talking points simutaneously. I imagine it must be a board room pitch meeting situation. "Okay, people. We're going to praise Bowen Marsh and write essays attacking Jon Snow. Let's get to work."

[Craving Peaches]

6 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

I'm still trying to figure out how these folks come out with the exact same talking points simutaneously.

I think the answer is that folks isn't in the plural.

[sifth]

10 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think the answer is that folks isn't in the plural.

That or they're just troll posts. I mean they're trying to vilify Jon "I'm trying to save as many people as I can" Snow.

At the same time, they often ignore that the Boltons are pretty much as evil as they come.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

1 minute ago, sifth said:

That or they're just troll posts. I mean they're trying to vilify Jon "I'm trying to save as many people as I can" Snow.

And they all try to make Daenerys out as this holier than thou, noble hero when if you actually read her chapters she can be extraordinarily selfish, arrogant, and downright cruel in some moments. People only think that because the only characters she has come into contact with are just purely evil scum with little redeeming qualities. 

[sifth]

6 minutes ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

And they all try to make Daenerys out as this holier than thou, noble hero when if you actually read her chapters she can be extraordinarily selfish, arrogant, and downright cruel in some moments. People only think that because the only characters she has come into contact with are just purely evil scum with little redeeming qualities. 

See I don't hate Dany either. Yea, she's selfish in ADWD, but her heart is always in the right place. Slavery is evil, the problem is she's not replacing the economy with anything and the result sadly is poverty. That and she's shown too much mercy on some of her enemies and the result is the Sons of the Harpy and the Yunkai army at her door step. I don't agree with much when it comes to Tywin's logic, but he is right about one thing, you have to fight your enemy until they're dead or they surrender. There are no middle grounds in war and never will be.

[Craving Peaches]

14 minutes ago, sifth said:

At the same time, they often ignore that the Boltons are pretty much as evil as they come.

The Boltons are the legitimate rulers of the North and Jon Snow had no right to take action against them. He should have sat there and waited for Ramsay to kill everyone.

[sifth]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The Boltons are the legitimate rulers of the North and Jon Snow had no right to take action against them. He should have sat there and waited for Ramsay to kill everyone.

Not to mention Jon is evil for trying to save the girl he believed to be his sister, from being raped by Ramsay. We can't forget how evil Jon is for trying to save an innocent young woman from Ramsay's extracurricular activities.

[Angel Eyes]

Just now, sifth said:

Not to mention Jon is evil for trying to save the girl he believed to be his sister, from being raped by Ramsay. We can't forget how evil Jon is for trying to save an innocent young woman from Ramsay's extracurricular activities.

Well, it would be like Martin to turn a nominally good action into one that screws over hundreds of thousands of people.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

7 minutes ago, sifth said:

See I don't hate Dany either. Yea, she's selfish in ADWD, but her heart is always in the right place. Slavery is evil, the problem is she's not replacing the economy with anything and the result sadly is poverty. That and she's shown too much mercy on some of her enemies and the result is the Sons of the Harpy and the Yunkai army at her door step. I don't agree with much when it comes to Tywin's logic, but he is right about one thing, you have to fight your enemy until they're dead or they surrender. There are no middle grounds in war and never will be.

I agree, for the most part I don’t think she is evil, but she also isn’t the paragon of righteousness either.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

3 minutes ago, sifth said:

Not to mention Jon is evil for trying to save the girl he believed to be his sister, from being raped by Ramsay. We can't forget how evil Jon is for trying to save an innocent young woman from Ramsay's extracurricular activities.

Honestly these Jon haters are either deliberately trolling for reactions or are quite frankly stupid.

[Craving Peaches]

26 minutes ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

Honestly these Jon haters are either deliberately trolling for reactions or are quite frankly stupid.

I don't understand the point. No one likes it but the person behind it all and no one finds it funny because it's so wearisome.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't understand the point. No one likes it but the person behind it all and no one finds it funny because it's so wearisome.

It’s like you said, if they just don’t like Jon’s chapters then it’s ok. It’s preference. Personally I don’t enjoy Daenerys’ chapters at all. I find them dull, and I don’t have to think too much while reading them. But I’m not gonna pretend that she is some epitome of evil or the Mad Queen. She is the person in the right in her story arc, but it’s not hard to be morally superior to slavers.

[SeanF]

9 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

 

You mistook Bowen Marsh for Jon Snow.  Bowen was and is a very loyal and dedicated brother of the watch.  A positive compliment like that cannot be applied to Jon.  It wasn't Marsh who allowed his feelings to get in the way of justice and murdered Janos Slynt.  Marsh was not party to sending Brother Mance Rayder on a treasonous mission to smuggle Arya out of Winterfell. 

In both cases, Jon was performing a public service.