Hero and Martyr: Bowen Marsh

[TheLastWolf]

On 12/15/2022 at 10:26 AM, James West said:

Bowen Marsh is one of the most maligned characters in "A Song of ice and Fire."  The slander always come from a vocal segment of the fandom.  He  is a person who knowingly accepted future suffering or death to stop Jon Snow from causing further harm to the Night's Watch and Westeros.  We all seem to agree that bad things are coming his way.  He did nothing wrong and can end up a martyr.  He will not have enough men to stop the Wildlings from leaving the castle and riding to war against Roose Bolton.  

The last book scene with Bowen Marsh had the loyal steward and the other brave brothers of the Night's Watch in tears as they ended the reign of who is perhaps the worst lord commander in the history of the Night's Watch.  The assassination was a reaction to Jon's speech at the Shield Hall.  The arrival of the Pink Letter exposed Jon's surreptitious activities against Lord Roose Bolton and Westeros.  Jon's revelation and admission were damning evidence against him.  He further told the gathered crowd of his intentions to lead an army of Wildlings to attack Lord Roose.  

Bowen Marsh did what any loyal man of the watch would have done.  The assassination was not a pre-planned attack.  It was an impromptu decision made at the very last minute in order to stop a madman from leading a hastily formed army of barbarians on a raid against a noble house of Westeros.  It was not a conspiracy from the Lannisters.  Bowen was not trying to usurp Jon.  Bowen had been loyal to Jon up to the time of the latter's Shield Hall talk.

We must hope for a speedy election of a new lord commander at the wall.  Aliser is a good choice if he is still alive.  

When's the next season of the poor boltons?

[SeanF]

14 hours ago, Chaircat Meow said:

Bowen and his fellow tyrannicides did make a sacrifice at the end. They stabbed Jon after he left a hall full of wildings he’d aroused to follow him to war: they knew they’d likely end up dead.

In no circumstances could a member of the Night's Watch allow his commander to march against the North with a wildling army while at the same time ordering the Night's Watch to bring back even more wildlings from beyond the wall (under the command of a wildling).

Yes the opposition to resettling the wall with wildlings was blinkered and conservative but you can see why they thought they’d been proved right at the end.

And presentation matters here. If Jon had argued, as he could have, that Ramsay was an insane monster and would destroy them all, watchmen and wildings alike, if he came to Castle Black and this would imperil the defences of the Seven Kingdoms then you could more reasonably accuse Bowen of irrationality.

But Jon made no effort to defend himself against the accusations the Boltons made (which he read out for all to hear) and presented his plan as a personal vendetta, appealing only to wildlings. He knew what he doing was indefensible behaviour in a Lord Commander but assumed Bowen and co would not have the guts to stop him. But they did.

Jon would have better off ditching the Nights Watch when Stannis offered him Winterfell. Although I appreciate he had religious qualms.

Nights Watch neutrality is a ship that sailed, the moment Stannis came to the Wall.  Jon is a player of the Game of Thrones, whether he likes it or not.

So is Marsh.  He simply supports the opposing faction to Jon.

[SeanF]

14 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Wun Wun will make pomegranate juice.

Melisandre will feed him to R’hllor’s fires.

[Chaircat Meow]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Nights Watch neutrality is a ship that sailed, the moment Stannis came to the Wall.  Jon is a player of the Game of Thrones, whether he likes it or not.

So is Marsh.  He simply supports the opposing faction to Jon.

At the time Bowen actually went Brutus it wasn't clear to anyone there was even another faction to side with. The Pink Letter said Stannis was dead. Jon's speech probably gave people the impression he thought its contents were true or half true.

The only question was whether to allow the Lord Commander to start his own war with the North using forces it had been the sworn duty of the NW to keep at bay for 1000s of years. 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Nights Watch neutrality is a ship that sailed, the moment Stannis came to the Wall.  Jon is a player of the Game of Thrones, whether he likes it or not.

So is Marsh.  He simply supports the opposing faction to Jon.

And Bowen Marsh himself broke neutrality when he supported Janos Slynt's candidacy for Lord Commander position, despite knowing how corrupt and incompetent he is, to please the Lannisters. 

[Rondo]

Jon was the villain in that dynamic.  He was the leader and did a piss poor job of communicating and convincing his officers of the reasons why the wildlings were allowed to enter Westeros.  Marsh remained loyal and dutiful through all of Jon's shortcomings as a leader and tried to work with Jon.  But Jon really went too far when he ordered Mance Rayder to locate his sister and bring her back to the wall.  It was too late to protest and remove Jon from power after the gathering because he already got the wildlings to support his plan to attack House Bolton.  Assassination was the only way to stop him.  Marsh is not the traditional hero.  He still broke the law but he did the world a favor and saved the NW from Jon Snow.  I would compare what Bowen Marsh did to what Jaime Lannister did to Aerys.  They were serving men who had gone irrational.  Jaime Lannister should have saved Aerys and asked for a trial by combat.  Bowen could not save Jon because Jon had become unreasonable and too irrational.  

The fans who like Jon are harsh on Bowen Marsh. It's anger directed at the wrong person in my opinion.  They should look at Jon with an open mind and see the harm he was doing to the NW out of his devotion to Arya.  

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 12/15/2022 at 2:08 AM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Alliser Thorne can't even properly train recruits, and people believe he can lead the Night's Watch 

On 12/14/2022 at 11:56 PM, James West said:

Bowen Marsh is one of the most maligned characters in "A Song of ice and Fire."  The slander always come from a vocal segment of the fandom.  He  is a person who knowingly accepted future suffering or death to stop Jon Snow from causing further harm to the Night's Watch and Westeros.  We all seem to agree that bad things are coming his way.  He did nothing wrong and can end up a martyr.  He will not have enough men to stop the Wildlings from leaving the castle and riding to war against Roose Bolton.  

The last book scene with Bowen Marsh had the loyal steward and the other brave brothers of the Night's Watch in tears as they ended the reign of who is perhaps the worst lord commander in the history of the Night's Watch.  The assassination was a reaction to Jon's speech at the Shield Hall.  The arrival of the Pink Letter exposed Jon's surreptitious activities against Lord Roose Bolton and Westeros.  Jon's revelation and admission were damning evidence against him.  He further told the gathered crowd of his intentions to lead an army of Wildlings to attack Lord Roose.  

Bowen Marsh did what any loyal man of the watch would have done.  The assassination was not a pre-planned attack.  It was an impromptu decision made at the very last minute in order to stop a madman from leading a hastily formed army of barbarians on a raid against a noble house of Westeros.  It was not a conspiracy from the Lannisters.  Bowen was not trying to usurp Jon.  Bowen had been loyal to Jon up to the time of the latter's Shield Hall talk.

We must hope for a speedy election of a new lord commander at the wall.  Aliser is a good choice if he is still alive.  

BM will get more support because he rid them of Jon. Thorne may lack the patience to train recruits but that was more of a problem with motivation. Thorne was unjustly sent to the Wall when he should have been a hero for staying loyal to the Targaryen monarchy.  
 

Bowen deserves credit because he got up the nerve to do something about Jon. The men of the Wall can’t allow a lord commander to attack the warden of the north and his family.  

[Craving Peaches]

39 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

a hero for staying loyal to the Targaryen monarchy.  

Yes, such a hero for staying loyal to a cruel tyrant who raped his wife and was going to kill half a million people.

[Aldarion]

OK, so in normal circumstances, Bowen Marsh may have been correct. I mean, Wildlings do invade the south, they do rape, burn and pillage, and no sane Lord Commander would allow them to pass the Wall uncontested, much less willingly let them through.

But thing is, these are not normal circumstances. Still, I am kinda on the fence about whether what he did was a bad decision rather than uninformed one.

You see, what Bowen sees is Jon Snow breaking wovs and his duty: he gets friendly with Stannis, he sends men (Mance) to get Arya back - thus showing that he is not honoring Night Watch wows of abandoning the family ties. And all of this means that, not only is Jon Snow breaking his wows, but he is also endangering the Watch - should Stannis lose, then what? And it is not like they didn't try to talk it out: members of the Watch opposed to Jon's actions have repeatedly brought their concerns to them.

And Jon Snow, being about as good at verbal communication as I am, tells them "shut the fuck up, get real, the dead are the real enemy". And while that answer is technically correct, it is the wrong thing to do in that situation. Now, I am not sure explaining stuff to them will have helped - but Jon did not really try to begin with. He never tried to address their concerns, does not even make a show of listening to his men - in fact, we are explicitly shown that he isolates himself from his men, and refuses several invitations to dine in the hall with friends. He just repeats "the dead are the true enemy", and that's it. And he sends away all the people who could have helped - especially Master Aemon, who wasn't fit for the journey in any case - and leaves himself surrounded with enemies and idiots. While essentially signalling that "I am the boss and I don't give a shit about what any of you say". That might work if he were a feudal lord, but he is not.

So Bowen Marsh has no reason to trust Jon Snow and all the reason to mistrust the Wildlings. And when Jon Snow decides to essentially forsake his wovs and involve the Night's Watch in the wars of the kingdom... yeah, I can definitely understand and to an extent even agree with Bowen. From his perspective, he is indeed doing Night's Watch a service.

He just so happens to be wrong.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

47 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

 

Wrong

[Wm Portnoy]

On 12/14/2022 at 11:56 PM, James West said:

Bowen Marsh is one of the most maligned characters in "A Song of ice and Fire."  The slander always come from a vocal segment of the fandom.  He  is a person who knowingly accepted future suffering or death to stop Jon Snow from causing further harm to the Night's Watch and Westeros.  We all seem to agree that bad things are coming his way.  He did nothing wrong and can end up a martyr.  He will not have enough men to stop the Wildlings from leaving the castle and riding to war against Roose Bolton.  

The last book scene with Bowen Marsh had the loyal steward and the other brave brothers of the Night's Watch in tears as they ended the reign of who is perhaps the worst lord commander in the history of the Night's Watch.  The assassination was a reaction to Jon's speech at the Shield Hall.  The arrival of the Pink Letter exposed Jon's surreptitious activities against Lord Roose Bolton and Westeros.  Jon's revelation and admission were damning evidence against him.  He further told the gathered crowd of his intentions to lead an army of Wildlings to attack Lord Roose.  

Bowen Marsh did what any loyal man of the watch would have done.  The assassination was not a pre-planned attack.  It was an impromptu decision made at the very last minute in order to stop a madman from leading a hastily formed army of barbarians on a raid against a noble house of Westeros.  It was not a conspiracy from the Lannisters.  Bowen was not trying to usurp Jon.  Bowen had been loyal to Jon up to the time of the latter's Shield Hall talk.

We must hope for a speedy election of a new lord commander at the wall.  Aliser is a good choice if he is still alive.  

He's a hero to us because we read those chapters and saw an incompetent Jon Snow damaging the Night's Watch.  Marsh's heroism will go unrecognized.  Unfortunately.  But Bowen didn't do it for recognition.  Like he said when he pushed the knife into Jon, "for the watch."  Bowen was making a sacrifice to protect Westeros and the watch from Jon.  He murdered his commander and will lose his honor.  A lifetime of loyal service to the watch will be tarnished because his fool of a commander can't get his mind away from the Starks he left behind.  Bowen sacrificed his own honor "for the watch."  He took Jon down "for the watch."  His friends also sacrificed their honors "for the watch."  The only person in that circle who was acting against the interest of the watch and violating his oaths was Jon Snow.  George Martin gave him a quick easy way out of the troubles he created at the watch.  Bowen Marsh and his friends will be killed.  Bowen guaranteed. His death may come from the free folk going on a mutiny if he will be so foolish as to attempt to stop them from leaving.  It may come from Zombie Jon who will choke him like Zombie Weymar choked his man.  It's sad for all of them because Jon went nuts for Arya.  Saddest of all for the poor crannogman who has been serving the watch for a long time. 

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Wm Portnoy said:

It may come from Zombie Jon who will choke him like Zombie Weymar choked his man. 

Good.

1 minute ago, Wm Portnoy said:

It's sad for all of them because Jon went nuts for Arya.

No he didn't. This statement is incorrect on multiple levels.

[Wm Portnoy]

@Craving Peaches  How is it good for Bowen Marsh to get killed at this critical time?  I don't think it is good.  Nothing good will come of it. 

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, Wm Portnoy said:

How is it good for Bowen Marsh to get killed at this critical time?  I don't think it is good.  Nothing good will come of it. 

So he can't destabilise the Watch any further and help the Others more through his shortsightedness and bigotry.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

54 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

OK, so in normal circumstances, Bowen Marsh may have been correct. I mean, Wildlings do invade the south, they do rape, burn and pillage, and no sane Lord Commander would allow them to pass the Wall uncontested, much less willingly let them through.

But thing is, these are not normal circumstances. Still, I am kinda on the fence about whether what he did was a bad decision rather than uninformed one.

You see, what Bowen sees is Jon Snow breaking wovs and his duty: he gets friendly with Stannis, he sends men (Mance) to get Arya back - thus showing that he is not honoring Night Watch wows of abandoning the family ties. And all of this means that, not only is Jon Snow breaking his wows, but he is also endangering the Watch - should Stannis lose, then what? And it is not like they didn't try to talk it out: members of the Watch opposed to Jon's actions have repeatedly brought their concerns to them.

And Jon Snow, being about as good at verbal communication as I am, tells them "shut the fuck up, get real, the dead are the real enemy". And while that answer is technically correct, it is the wrong thing to do in that situation. Now, I am not sure explaining stuff to them will have helped - but Jon did not really try to begin with. He never tried to address their concerns, does not even make a show of listening to his men - in fact, we are explicitly shown that he isolates himself from his men, and refuses several invitations to dine in the hall with friends. He just repeats "the dead are the true enemy", and that's it. And he sends away all the people who could have helped - especially Master Aemon, who wasn't fit for the journey in any case - and leaves himself surrounded with enemies and idiots. While essentially signalling that "I am the boss and I don't give a shit about what any of you say". That might work if he were a feudal lord, but he is not.

So Bowen Marsh has no reason to trust Jon Snow and all the reason to mistrust the Wildlings. And when Jon Snow decides to essentially forsake his wovs and involve the Night's Watch in the wars of the kingdom... yeah, I can definitely understand and to an extent even agree with Bowen. From his perspective, he is indeed doing Night's Watch a service.

He just so happens to be wrong.

Bowen's problem is that while he does indeed have some valid points when he criticizes and is wary of Jon, and he has a point about the food logistics problems, he himself proposes no better alternative to Jon's plans and ideas, and he can't see that the situation has changed too much for the Night's Watch to cling to its old policies, and that indeed the Night's Watch vows never said anything about the wildlings since it was made to fight the Others.

The Night's Watch couldn't afford to be neutral anymore after Stannis saved them from the Wildlings, while the Lannister regime didn't give a shit and even wanted to interfere in the Watch's affairs and even attacked NW members, while Robb Stark couldn't do anything to help them, and that the Watch can't oppose Stannis' decisions anyway.

The worst is that he himself broke his neutrality vow, when he supported Janos Slynt to become Lord Commander to appease the Lannisters, despite their transgressions toward the Watch and the fact that Slynt was corrupt, cowardly and incompetent and that his rule would most surely have been a disaster for the NW. Not counting that he also has no plan on how to face the Boltons' wrath.

[Wm Portnoy]

6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

So he can't destabilise the Watch any further and help the Others more through his shortsightedness and bigotry.

Oh man, you are slandering and smearing the Crannogman.  None of that is true.  It is no wonder he gets sympathy.  The defamation of his character from some in the readership is overwhelming.  The dude was in tears.  He was crying real tears.  A grown man brought to tears by the moment.  He didn't want to hurt his commander.  No hate was there inside.  Just a man saving the order he served and the people they serve. 

It's not bigotry if his experience with the W were always confrontational.  He was bringing his experience to the table.  He was proven right now.  The W are gonna attack. 

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Wm Portnoy said:

None of that is true.

Bowen Marsh doesn't want to let the Wildlings through because they are wildlings. He would rather leave tens of thousands of men, women and children to die and strengthen the greatest threat the Watch had ever seen. His bigotry towards the Wildlings is such that he would rather the armies of the Others were strengthened than try to cooperate with them.

Even if they disliked the Wildlings, most people would see letting them through as a preferable alternative to giving the Others tens of thousands of fresh troops. Nothing the Wildlings do could be as bad as that. But not Bowen. He's that much of a bigot.

[Craving Peaches]

5 minutes ago, Wm Portnoy said:

Oh man, you are slandering and smearing the Crannogman.  None of that is true.

But it is true. So by definition it isn't slander.

[LongRider]

21 minutes ago, Wm Portnoy said:

Oh man, you are slandering and smearing the Crannogman. 

I didn’t realize Howland Reed was at Castle Black!  Where in the text is he mentioned??  Howland Reed would never harm Eddard Stark’s son. 

[Rondo]

On 12/14/2022 at 11:56 PM, James West said:

Bowen Marsh is one of the most maligned characters in "A Song of ice and Fire."  The slander always come from a vocal segment of the fandom.  He  is a person who knowingly accepted future suffering or death to stop Jon Snow from causing further harm to the Night's Watch and Westeros.  We all seem to agree that bad things are coming his way.  He did nothing wrong and can end up a martyr.  He will not have enough men to stop the Wildlings from leaving the castle and riding to war against Roose Bolton.  

The last book scene with Bowen Marsh had the loyal steward and the other brave brothers of the Night's Watch in tears as they ended the reign of who is perhaps the worst lord commander in the history of the Night's Watch.  The assassination was a reaction to Jon's speech at the Shield Hall.  The arrival of the Pink Letter exposed Jon's surreptitious activities against Lord Roose Bolton and Westeros.  Jon's revelation and admission were damning evidence against him.  He further told the gathered crowd of his intentions to lead an army of Wildlings to attack Lord Roose.  

Bowen Marsh did what any loyal man of the watch would have done.  The assassination was not a pre-planned attack.  It was an impromptu decision made at the very last minute in order to stop a madman from leading a hastily formed army of barbarians on a raid against a noble house of Westeros.  It was not a conspiracy from the Lannisters.  Bowen was not trying to usurp Jon.  Bowen had been loyal to Jon up to the time of the latter's Shield Hall talk.

We must hope for a speedy election of a new lord commander at the wall.  Aliser is a good choice if he is still alive.  

Courage and boldness do not come naturally for Lord Bowen Marsh but he rose to the occasion and executed the Order's insane Lord Commander Snow.  Everything Jon did, doing, and about to do looked like the actions of a madman.  No other lord commander would have dared to start war with the families they were sworn to protect.  Jon went mad for Arya and got the watch into a situation which could have led to its end.  Bowen will go down as a criminal to the outside world but it was worth it to stop Jon Snow.  The brothers who were there will know it was right to give Jon the pointy end of the knife.