Ottoman: Mehmet vs Vlad

[SeanF]

This is a great Netflix series, depicting the fight between Mehmet II and Vlad Tepes.

It’s mostly historical fiction, but interspersed with commentary from Charles Dance and various academics.

What is nominally a conflict between Muslim and Christian is actually a conflict between Caesar and Pompey, or Alexander and Darius.  Mehmet very much sees himself as heir to the Caesars.

It’s like a Guy Gavriel Kay story brought to television.

[BigFatCoward]

Was the ottoman empire depicted as flat or hilly? 

[Zorral]

45 minutes ago, SeanF said:

a conflict between Caesar and Pompey, or Alexander and Darius.  Mehmet very much sees himself as heir to the Caesars.

In other words they both were dicks. 

It was Mehmet's grandson, Suleiman the Magnificent, who really believed he was the rightful heir to the title of Roman Emperor. He was furious that the Habsburg Charles V got named Holy Roman Emperor, thus remaining a friendly ally of Francis I, who also spent a lot of money clandestinely to be so named by the pope, but lost out. His friendly relationship with the Ottomans didn't help him any either.

I am about half way through this 'documentary', which is far below the quality the best of the series, which was the history of the samurai.  They really revel in the impalements too. 

P.S. I am much looking forward to the two new histories of the Ottomans that are among this year's Christmas gifts -- plus another new history of the Mongolian invasions of Central Asia, and an older one (2011), of the cultural and political history of Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkey, and Iran!

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, Zorral said:

In other words they both were dicks. 

It was Mehmet's grandson, Suleiman the Magnificent, who really believed he was the rightful heir to the title of Roman Emperor. He was furious that the Habsburg Charles V got named Holy Roman Emperor, thus remaining a friendly ally of Francis I, who also spent a lot of money clandestinely to be so named by the pope, but lost out. His friendly relationship with the Ottomans didn't help him any either.

I am about half way through this 'documentary', which is far below the quality the best of the series, which was the history of the samurai.  They really revel in the impalements too. 

Well, I’ve found it thoroughly enjoyable, so far.

There’s a reason why Vlad was nicknamed “Tepes”.

[Zorral]

7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

There’s a reason why Vlad was nicknamed “Tepes”.

Yes, there was, evidently.  Ugh.  He was as good with horror as the most severe Mongol general. At least, as he's depicted here.  But again, there's little to no nuance or real context going on here, as they try so hard to make this a personal conflict as opposed to an imperial, expansionist, invasionist one of conquest and resistance.

[SeanF]

14 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Yes, there was, evidently.  Ugh.  He was as good with horror as the most severe Mongol general. At least, as he's depicted here.  But again, there's little to no nuance or real context going on here, as they try so hard to make this a personal conflict as opposed to an imperial, expansionist, invasionist one of conquest and resistance.

A fair point, though I think for conquerors at this point in history (like Timur, Babur, most Turkish Sultans) it was about personal glory, rather than winning colonies on behalf of a mother country.

As a Turkish production, it does gloss over that Mehmet was every bit as brutal as Vlad.

[Corvinus85]

I didn't know about this series until yesterday. I see season 1 was about the conquest of Constantinople. It does look like Turkish propaganda to me.

[SeanF]

4 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

I didn't know about this series until yesterday. I see season 1 was about the conquest of Constantinople. It does look like Turkish propaganda to me.

Well, Mehmet II is a national hero, as Vlad Tepes is for Romanians.

[Heartofice]

6 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

I didn't know about this series until yesterday. I see season 1 was about the conquest of Constantinople. It does look like Turkish propaganda to me.

I remember watching a bit of the first episode when they did Constantinople but I didn’t really see them talk about the sort of state the Byzantine ‘empire’ was at by this point, I mean did they even mention the Crusader armies that did most of the damage or how poor the emperor was by this point? It all felt very much like propaganda so I just turned it off.

I also hate this style of documentary, which mixes in talking heads with amateur dramatics. 

[Zorral]

Well, Vlad Tepes really was as awful as depicted.  After all his own people killed him, once he was released from Hungarian King Mattias Corvinus's multi-year house arrest.  It only took them 2 years to rid themselves of him.

He's so bad one rather roots for the Sultan's forces, who are so righteously shocked at the devastation and cruelties he commits -- though they were more than capable of doing the same, and did.  But under generally more strategic-for-the-future taxation, than Prince Vlad. Something not mentioned is at this time the majority of the people in the Ottoman Empire were not Muslim but other religions.  So he needed not to offend the average person too much and also to preserved the agricultural workers and artisans of all kinds.  At this time the empire was quite tolerant.

There is no mention of how systematically the Turks and their 'vassals' (incorrect term used by westerners all the time -- something like 'client' would be more accurate) slaved all the territories they invaded and controlled.  Part of the tribute that Vlad stopped paying was 1000 boys to be turned over to the janissaries, to be gelded, converted and turned into soldiers.  There's no mention either that even prior to Mehmet (or Mehmed, depending on who spelling one follows) the Conqueror, how much wealth the European states such as Genoa and Pisa and Venice were reaping from participating in the Ottomans' slaving and selling.

Nor is there mention that the reason Mehmet II had such great artillery and cannon is because all these European cannon engineers and workers came to work for him, bringing their Italian and Hungarian expertise with them. He paid very well. It is true though, that he really understood these matters and was personally interested in them even beyond how well they served him in his wars.

 

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@Zorral

I'm pretty sure neither the Janissaries nor the Mamluks were gilded unlike GRRM's Unsullied but my memory could be playing tricks on me. (I'm pedantic when it comes to matters of history.)

[Corvinus85]

The kids taken to be Janissaries were merely circumcized, not gelded. 

[The Sunland Lord]

Janissaries were circumcized and converted to Islam forcefully by the Ottomans. 

What I mean is that's how they became Janissaries. They were picked by the Ottoman officials among the non-Turkish population and usually they were the ones the Ottomans thought most able fighters.

[Zorral]

2 hours ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

@Zorral

I'm pretty sure neither the Janissaries nor the Mamluks were gilded unlike GRRM's Unsullied but my memory could be playing tricks on me. (I'm pedantic when it comes to matters of history.)

You are all right and I am all wrong. For no reason at all when I wrote that I was recalling memoirs written by a captured child, who was sold to the Ottomans, who gives an account of his gelding, which, unlike many, he survived and became a court eunuch.  But not all the eunuchs were entirely gelded either -- just the testicles removed, and not so infrequently, not even that much, just ensuring the boy would not be able to father children.  Or so he said.

I apologize for writing so very hastily and making such a major error -- especially since I really do know better!  

But kids were sold in their tens of thousands into slavery to become janissaries.  They may have been paid, and often, and ever increasingly so, well-paid, until finally in most cases they were the tail that wagged the sultan.  They were a big part of the ossification of the Ottoman empire -- not the only element, and not all elements of the empire were ossified, but enough were.

 

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@Zorral

Its OK. We all make mistakes from time to time. If I remember correctly, the Janissaries became overmighty kingmakers after the sultan first let them marry and then go into trade.