Curled Finger Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 1 hour ago, LynnS said: Broken swords could also be considered swords without hilts. If Jon is his sword Longclaw with its direwolf hilt; then the sword is now broken with body and soul separated. I'm not sure his body can be resurrected without binding the soul which is safely housed within Ghost for the present. I don't think Mel or the Others can raise him at this point. It's not clear to me what happened to Varamyr's body when he died the true death. Thistle wasn't the only wight that was raised. Almost my exact thought in my initial post. Yours makes me wonder what exactly Brienne and Oathkeeper are as touched upon a little later. OK makes Brienne a better fighter, just as Jon credits LC for making him a better fighter. In my very narrow tunnel Jon and Brienne are the hilts for the magic of those swords just as I anticipate Jorah and Jamie to be for the swords I expect them to wield. I am tripping over the classifications or delineations between the magic of ice and the Children as our goodsisters, @sweetsunray and @kissdbyfire have kindly explained. If I can really get them separated in my head canon the VS swords are real fire magic and dang it, they should be, we have certainly read it enough. What's with my refusal to accept this wholly? Dragonsteel. Specifically COTF supplied dragonsteel. That would be the same as dragonglass (classification), not ice magic and my brain hurts. Hrm...earth magic didn't do the trick the first time around? LynnS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 I don't know if it's been mentioned before, apologies if it has and I've just not seen it, but when Jon is watching the Wildlings cross the wall, one of the treasures is a jewelled sword hilt - a hilt without a sword, its counterpart sword without a hilt presumably lost Beyond the Wall (in pieces if it's Waymar's sword). Quote One man surrendered a shirt of silver scales that had surely been made for some great lord. Another produced a broken sword with three sapphires in the hilt. Evolett, White Night, Curled Finger and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: Almost my exact thought in my initial post. Yours makes me wonder what exactly Brienne and Oathkeeper are as touched upon a little later. OK makes Brienne a better fighter, just as Jon credits LC for making him a better fighter. In my very narrow tunnel Jon and Brienne are the hilts for the magic of those swords just as I anticipate Jorah and Jamie to be for the swords I expect them to wield. I am tripping over the classifications or delineations between the magic of ice and the Children as our goodsisters, @sweetsunray and @kissdbyfire have kindly explained. If I can really get them separated in my head canon the VS swords are real fire magic and dang it, they should be, we have certainly read it enough. What's with my refusal to accept this wholly? Dragonsteel. Specifically COTF supplied dragonsteel. That would be the same as dragonglass (classification), not ice magic and my brain hurts. Hrm...earth magic didn't do the trick the first time around? Green will use fire and ice up to a level: wildfire as used during the Battle of Blackwater Bay is "green fire". It battles a red fire faction with green fire and beats it. Its color green and the adjective of wild makes me classify it amongst the green faction. And the Lannisters have some "green" aspects - their eye color, Jaime's weird dream, ... But they have been leaning too far in the fire with Cersei. Much of the fire comes from Rohane Webber - a green fiery dragonfly with black-red spotted spider. Roose Bolton leans too heavily into ice, and it's "rotten". He cannot stand the iron fire and energy in his own red blood even, and has it leeched. Roose and Cersei are characters that still belong in the natural green faction, but they are leaning one way too heavily. I think dragonsteel, VS and obsidian works, because the fire is captured or in stasis. It cannot rage out of control. If VS is formed by carbonization with bones of dragonriders, then this is a more natural process. In the case of Ice - it's a VS fire sword but reframed with the ice name: together they balance each other out. Obsidian is a natural process of petrification of volcanic power, and volcanoes are also part of nature. In the nickname "frozen fire" we once again have a balance of both cold and flame. Together it is neither of those two. In a sense green uses fire and ice in a mirror against the extreme: green fire against the red fire, an ice Wall against the Others. It's like Serwyn of the Mirror Shield holding a mirror shield towards a dragon and managing to kill the dragon because of it. Green turns the weapons of either ice or fire against itself. ETA: BTW we also see the blue / green / fierce fire too amongst dragons. Rhaena Targaryen had a blue dragon, and she started the tradition of putting dragons eggs in the cribbs. This in a way prevented Balerion from bonding with anyone after Maegor's death. The greens of the dance of the dragons with green Vhagar as their behemoth dragon wiped out the superior dragon numbers of the blacks. And the experience resulted in Aegon III despising dragons, not wanting anything to do with them and having the remaining ones killed. The last dragon was a small "green" dragon. Rhaegal is another wild green dragon. He's fierce, but mostly in a defensive way and I regard him as the one least willing to have a rider or be controlled. He would be happiest if he could just fly free somewhere where there are no people, not bonded to anyone... a free dragon in the wild, like the wild dragons that once lived in Westeros before. The black-red dragon is the dragon to conquer with, who goes for biggest. Edited January 23, 2023 by sweetsunray Craving Peaches 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said: Green will use fire and ice up to a level: wildfire as used during the Battle of Blackwater Bay is "green fire". It battles a red fire faction with green fire and beats it. Its color green and the adjective of wild makes me classify it amongst the green faction. And the Lannisters have some "green" aspects - their eye color, Jaime's weird dream, ... But they have been leaning too far in the fire with Cersei. Much of the fire comes from Rohane Webber - a green fiery dragonfly with black-red spotted spider. Roose Bolton leans too heavily into ice, and it's "rotten". He cannot stand the iron fire and energy in his own red blood even, and has it leeched. Roose and Cersei are characters that still belong in the natural green faction, but they are leaning one way too heavily. I think dragonsteel, VS and obsidian works, because the fire is captured or in stasis. It cannot rage out of control. If VS is formed by carbonization with bones of dragonriders, then this is a more natural process. In the case of Ice - it's a VS fire sword but reframed with the ice name: together they balance each other out. Obsidian is a natural process of petrification of volcanic power, and volcanoes are also part of nature. In the nickname "frozen fire" we once again have a balance of both cold and flame. Together it is neither of those two. In a sense green uses fire and ice in a mirror against the extreme: green fire against the red fire, an ice Wall against the Others. It's like Serwyn of the Mirror Shield holding a mirror shield towards a dragon and managing to kill the dragon because of it. Green turns the weapons of either ice or fire against itself. I swear I am so close to there with you. You know I plod! Everything I have done I have tried to color within the lines, that is the text at hand and we know the text is purposefully wrong. I refer to timeline here. Along this timeline, the Long Night happened long before the Valyrians, much less their steel. I can take Ironborn metals with obsidian. Why not, it says that's what the Ironborn did when everyone else was still using bronze? Nothing says any particular metals or mixed metals wouldn't be magical under COTF power, right? If we can leave Valyrian out of it I can go there. We know dragons were being ridden even then, before Valyrians. As I understand what you offer here, the green or COTF earth magic is a sort of neutralizer against either fire or ice? sweetsunray 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: As I understand what you offer here, the green or COTF earth magic is a sort of neutralizer against either fire or ice? Yes, turning the weapons of the ice or fire enemy against them. Edited January 23, 2023 by sweetsunray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 8 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: I don't know if it's been mentioned before, apologies if it has and I've just not seen it, but when Jon is watching the Wildlings cross the wall, one of the treasures is a jewelled sword hilt - a hilt without a sword, its counterpart sword without a hilt presumably lost Beyond the Wall (in pieces if it's Waymar's sword). Nice catch! I looked at the wiki and it confirmed Waymar's hilt was covered in jewels. Craving Peaches and Curled Finger 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 Just now, sweetsunray said: Yes I can dig it. Oh No. I feel a sword topic coming on... sweetsunray 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 6 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: I can dig it. Oh No. I feel a sword topic coming on... You can see of course how in that scheme, Jon himself is a huge secret weapon if R + L = J, for the old gods/green/nature/CotF team. He is like obsidian or harnessed carbonized steel of dragonblood, but in human form. He can be wielded against the ice enemy, the Others, as well as black-red dragons: an ice dragon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 1 minute ago, sweetsunray said: You can see of course how in that scheme, Jon himself is a huge secret weapon if R + L = J, for the old gods/green/nature/CotF team. He is like obsidian or harnessed carbonized steel of dragonblood, but in human form. He can be wielded against the ice enemy, the Others, as well as black-red dragons: an ice dragon. Absolutely. I am trying to apply this thinking to the names of the swords now and the characters I believe will get them. Interesting line of thought. Thanks so much for your never ending patience with me. sweetsunray 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phylum of Alexandria Posted January 23, 2023 Author Share Posted January 23, 2023 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: As I understand what you offer here, the green or COTF earth magic is a sort of neutralizer against either fire or ice? Yeah, I think of them as relating to balance and counterbalance for habitation. I find it striking that the weirwoods themselves are not colored green. Their leaves are red, like blood and fire. But that's against white, a cold color. When we first see one, it's in Winterfell, presumably growing right by the hot springs there. Like the direwolves, they help to communicate the idea of warmth against the cold. So maybe the weirwoods further South, say, on the God's Eye, look different. Edited January 23, 2023 by Phylum of Alexandria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 1 minute ago, Phylum of Alexandria said: Yeah, I think of them as relating to balance and counterbalance for habitation. I find it striking that the weirwoods themselves are not colored green. Their leaves are red, like blood and fire. But that's against white, a cold color. When we first see one, it's in Winterfell, presumably growing right by the hot springs there. Like the direwolves, they help to communicate the idea of warmth against the cold. So maybe the weirwoods further South, say, on the Quiet Isle, look different. Yah I just never really separated earth and ice magic here. Should have paid more attention to heimal's lessons on elemental magic. Since you bring up the Quiet Isle (I don't think the weirwoods appear any different for all it's worth)...Elder Brother mentions all manner of items washing up on the shores. Among them rusted helms and shining swords. He doesn't mention broken weapons or hilts alone, but might be something to investigate there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 6 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: Absolutely. I am trying to apply this thinking to the names of the swords now and the characters I believe will get them. Interesting line of thought. Thanks so much for your never ending patience with me. Brienne becomes a multi ice& fire sword wielder: Tarth is the sapphire isle with blue veined marble used in the Eyrie that is too cold and barren to winter. But she joins a group of outlaws that use fire and worhsip rh'llor (for now). And she carries the green faction shield of Duncan with a tree. Curled Finger 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 (edited) Quick question: Quiet Isle or Isle of Faces in the God’s Eye? Edited January 23, 2023 by kissdbyfire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: Yah I just never really separated earth and ice magic here. Should have paid more attention to heimal's lessons on elemental magic. Since you bring up the Quiet Isle (I don't think the weirwoods appear any different for all it's worth)...Elder Brother mentions all manner of items washing up on the shores. Among them rusted helms and shining swords. He doesn't mention broken weapons or hilts alone, but might be something to investigate there. Rubies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 (edited) 1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said: Quick question: Quiet Isle or God’s Eye? It's the Quiet Isle he's referring to. It's also mentioned the finding of six rubies. SSR the rubies. Edited January 23, 2023 by LongRider sweetsunray 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phylum of Alexandria Posted January 23, 2023 Author Share Posted January 23, 2023 (edited) 2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: Quick question: Quiet Isle or God’s Eye? I think that was for me. I meant the Isle of Faces, at the God's Eye. Thanks. Edited January 23, 2023 by Phylum of Alexandria kissdbyfire 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 1 minute ago, LongRider said: It's the Quiet Isle he's referring to. It's also mentioned the finding of six rubies. I think he was talking about the weirwoods? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said: I think that was for me. I meant God's Eye. Thanks. I'm getting confusededed! Yes he was, but until he posted again, I didn't realize it. Edited January 23, 2023 by LongRider Phylum of Alexandria and kissdbyfire 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phylum of Alexandria Posted January 23, 2023 Author Share Posted January 23, 2023 Just now, LongRider said: I'm getting confusededed! Yeah sorry. Long day, I'm tired. A quiet isle sounds nice right now. LongRider 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 Real good gang. I am hopelessly confused now. Gotta go find some rusty rubies on the Gods Eye! Phylum of Alexandria, LongRider and kissdbyfire 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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