A Sword Without a Hilt

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

It is telling here that purely human characters seem to have no sway or real ways with magic.  Interesting indeed! 

I'm also wondering about the sacrifices. CotF used sacrifices to do big magical events but it doesn't look like they were doing them all the time. Dragons of course don't perform them. Craster sacrifices to the Others but I'm not sure whether the Others themselves perform sacrifices. Most humans seem to need sacrifices to do anything magic related beyond passive stuff and illusions.

Edit: the Others may be performing sacrifices. But I'm not sure whether this is required for their magical power.

Edited January 22, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Craving Peaches]

11 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And then finally there are the CotF, who have been hunted for thousands of years into near extinction, exactly because of the powers they have.

Hmm... definitely some food for thought in your post. Indeed the magic is dangerous as it makes them a target for humans. To clarify my original point, both Stannis and Melisandre seem 'damaged'/harmed from the magic they used. But when the dragons breath fire and the Others raise wights it doesn't seem to damage them. What I was trying to say is that it looks like only the humans hurt themselves directly through using magic. Which could suggest that humans and magic using don't mix well, or that humans are using the wrong 'type' of magic and it is not compatible with them. Going back to the red blue green 'factions', it seems to be the 'green' that is most compatible with humans. I would not say skinchanging and greenseeing have no negative side effects but when you compare it with the 'red' magic Melisandre uses it seems to go better with humans.

Edited January 22, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Curled Finger]

Just now, Craving Peaches said:

I'm also wondering about the sacrifices. CotF used sacrifices to do big magical events but it doesn't look like they were doing them all the time. Dragons of course don't perform them. Craster sacrifices to the Others but I'm not sure whether the Others themselves perform sacrifices. Most humans seem to need sacrifices to do anything magic related beyond passive stuff and illusions.

I was reading @Mourning Starpost above then yours and it got me thinking about just humans.  We know the Starks and Targs are magical.  Then I got to thinking about Lannisters and Tullys and others.  Like Brienne, maybe Jamie and Jorah.  (I beg your pardon beforehand, my whole big interest in this thing is the swords!) They seem like very human normal non magical people.  But Brienne tells us flat out that Oathkeeper makes her a better fighter.  Jon, magic prince of the realm, says the same thing despite having magical experiences.  I don't think Brienne is magical in any way, nor Jamie nor Jorah, but I think coming in contact with these magical swords will bring magic to their groove, their fight, their dances if you will.  It took sacrifice to make these blades.  My friend @hiemal has some wicked ideas that the blades themselves may actually eat the souls of their wielders.  

It's safe to say the COTF sacrificed to the weirwood as we know the 1st Men did later.   I think the sacrifices were more than ceremonial or simply for a big thing.   I'm thinking this was an everyday thing because of how brutal the tales from history are.  Bran only gets a very few visions in the cave and 1 depicts what sure looks like a sacrifice.  Sure it could be Stark centric but it tells me that sacrifice is important to the trees, to the relationship between men and these trees at any rate.  Thinking back on Mourning Star's post, maybe sacrifice is exactly what's missing in the magic.  

[Phylum of Alexandria]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Perhaps magic is only a sword without a hilt for humans? Dragons, Others and the Children of the Forest don't seemed to be 'harmed' from using magic in the way humans are. This could be because humans have a degree of 'incompatibility' with magic, or it could be that humans are not channelling or using magic in the way they are 'supposed' to, while the magical creatures are.

Perhaps that will prove to be true, though I don't think dragons should be included in the Hilt group. They came from human crossbreeding programs. Perhaps the damage of firewyrms is limited to their specific terrains, but when crossed with flying wyverns, you get flying weapons of mass destruction. 

Team Blue is a mystery, but I get the feeling if global conditions were different they would be much more aggressive about claiming territory and resources. Hence why the Long Night was marked by their raiding Westeros: the ceaseless darkness provided them with a new bonanza. 

Maybe that would be true of Team Red if there was some cataclysm that led to long-term scorching heat that they could thrive in? I dunno, the teams all seem to be self-interested in perpetuating what works for them, but the conditions are incompatible across teams. 

But maybe humans amped up the drama and instability, particularly with their wars against the CotF, and their magical wars with one another.

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Craster sacrifices to the Others

Interestingly, Craster was puffed up with his own importance for being right with the gods, he missed he was being wrong with the NW and some of them killed him.  Opps, guess his sacrifices didn't cover everything, 

[Evolett]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Going back to the red blue green 'factions', it seems to be the 'green' that is most compatible with humans. I would not say skinchanging and greenseeing have no negative side effects but when you compare it with the 'red' magic Melisandre uses it seems to go better with humans.

From what we can glean from the novels, skinchanging does have dire effects (pun intended), especially personally, for the untaught skinchanger. Jojen's warnings regarding spending too much time in the familiar animal are illustrated by Varamyr's account of killing his little brother Bump while skinchanging his dog. Varamyr was only a child at the time but had obviously been skinchanging the family dogs for quite a while. Killing his brother shows how beastlike he had become even at that young age. His father's decision to place him in the care of an experienced skinchanger was wise. From Haggon we also learn how skinchanging other animals affects the human. There are other considerations as well, also demostrated through Bran's POVs. A skinchanger who is actively warging his wolf leaves his body behind, his consciousness elsewhere. The body is basically helpless, does not take up nourishment, cannot defend itself from enemies - yes, is even in danger of being taken over by another skinchanger. And we haven't yet taken the effects of humans who are victims of skinchanging, like Hoder, into account. We see the price Bloodraven pays for his greenseeing powes. 

Fire magic also takes a great toll. Thoros grows thin on the road but he also wastes away. The lord's kiss ritual he performs over and over again consumes him as well as Beric. He did not think he would survive raising Beric a seventh time. Stannis is also subject to this wasting process after Mel takes his seed for shadows. And Mel herself describes the toll it took on her, the agony, the pain involved in conducting her magic. Remember "Mance's" burning. It wouldn't surprise me that Mel uses a glamour to cover up the visible bodily scarring and wasting she has suffered because of her practice. I don't think it's only to disguise her age. She's probably absolutely hideous underneath and I would say the same goes for Quaithe. 

No, I don't think there's any middle ground. The cost is very high, both for the magician and society. 

 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Evolett

[Corvo the Crow]

Some swords without hilts:

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Her brother was several years younger and bore no weapons. All his garb was green, even to the leather of his boots, and when he came closer Bran saw that his eyes were the color of moss, though his teeth looked as white as anyone else's. Both Reeds were slight of build, slender as swords and scarcely taller than Bran himself. They went to one knee before the dais.

 

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The candle was unpleasantly bright. There was something queer about it. The flame did not flicker, even when Archmaester Marwyn closed the door so hard that papers blew off a nearby table. The light did something strange to colors too. Whites were bright as fresh-fallen snow, yellow shone like gold, reds turned to flame, but the shadows were so black they looked like holes in the world. Sam found himself staring. The candle itself was three feet tall and slender as a sword, ridged and twisted, glittering black. "Is that . . . ?"

". . . obsidian," said the other man in the room, a pale, fleshy, pasty-faced young fellow with round shoulders, soft hands, close-set eyes, and food stains on his robes.

 

Quote

He bowed deeply and took a moment to glance around the hall. Lady Arryn had summoned her knights and retainers to hear his confession, as he had hoped. He saw Ser Brynden Tully's craggy face and Lord Nestor Royce's bluff one. Beside Nestor stood a younger man with fierce black sidewhiskers who could only be his heir, Ser Albar. Most of the principal houses of the Vale were represented. Tyrion noted Ser Lyn Corbray, slender as a sword, Lord Hunter with his gouty legs, the widowed Lady Waynwood surrounded by her sons. Others sported sigils he did not know; broken lance, green viper, burning tower, winged chalice.

Worth noting is two of the three(not Meera so far as we know) in the first two quotes are actually related to magic, while in the third quote, the guy himself is dangerous, just like magic, a sword without a hilt, and actually owns a sword that can be considered magical.

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His words did little to soothe her fears. Lyn Corbray had slain almost as many men in duels as he had in battle. He had won his spurs during Robert's Rebellion, she knew, fighting first against Lord Jon Arryn at the gates of Gulltown, and later beneath his banners on the Trident, where he had cut down Prince Lewyn of Dorne, a white knight of the Kingsguard. Petyr said that Prince Lewyn had been sorely wounded by the time the tide of battle swept him to his final dance with Lady Forlorn, but added, "That's not a point you'll want to raise with Corbray, though. Those who do are soon given the chance to ask Martell himself the truth of it, down in the halls of hell." If even half of what she had heard from Lord Robert's guards was true, Lyn Corbray was more dangerous than all six of the Lords Declarant put together. "Why is he coming?" she asked. "I thought the Corbrays were for you."

"Lord Lyonel Corbray is well disposed toward my rule," said Petyr, "but his brother goes his own way. On the Trident, when their father fell wounded, it was Lyn who snatched up Lady Forlorn and slew the man who'd cut him down. Whilst Lyonel was carrying the old man back to the maesters in the rear, Lyn led his charge against the Dornishmen threatening Robert's left, broke their lines to pieces, and slew Lewyn Martell. So when old Lord Corbray died, he bestowed the Lady upon his younger son. Lyonel got his lands, his title, his castle, and all his coin, yet still feels he was cheated of his birthright, whilst Ser Lyn . . . well, he loves Lyonel as much as he loves me. He wanted Lysa's hand for himself."

 

[sweetsunray]

I disagree completely with the sacrificing by CotF and First Men before weirwoods for numerous reasons but also magical ones. Especially for the CotF the claims over this are quite dubious.

In some claims there's definite propaganda insertion from Andals, for example about the Neck. Anything that had to do with the Neck to halt enemy forces means Andals, not First Men. This is evident because of the Pact and the Riverlands forests having been left untouched by men until the Andals. There's no way FM had conquered as far as the Neck without destroying forest in the RL before the Pact. The location of the Pact supports and points to the FM not having conquered the RL yet. A pact and peace talks happen in "neutral" zones, not in the middle of enemy territory. And the agreement was that FM could have the clear areas, while the forests would be CotF domain. Hence the RL groves and forests were saved, until the arrival and conquering of the RL by the Andals. The Andals were definitely halted at the Neck, at Moat Cailin, and no doubt knowledge by its habitants how to use dams to flood an area and drown them (it's what halted the German march during WWI at the Ijzer in my country). They could not stomach the defeat and definitely did not want the FM they had conquered to second guess the Andals. Together with the Citadel that had converted and tales of the Dawn age animosity between FM and CotF, Andals then inserted hate propaganda against the CotF, including their own humiliating defeat at the Neck, but claiming it were the FM that were halted by those evil devils of CotF instead of the Andals, even though it makes absolutely no sense geographically.

Secondly, the actual known examples point to executions except for the one that Bran sees in the long ago times of history, but it's not clear it's not an execution either. During a genocidal war against the CotF it seems far more likely that the CotF killed POWs before weirwoods in a tribunal sense, than just "human sacrifice". They killed the men who murdered their own, their children, burned the greenseers beneath their trees, burned their tree villages. It's their Nurenberg so to speak.

Thirdly, because of the impact. When someone dies, their souls go back into nature. And certainly when done in front of a weirwood, that soul goes directly into the weirwood. We know what it's like for Arya to meld with a face of a dead person. In that case it's the memory of that person just before death. But an entire soul in a weirwood means a greenseer would experience that person's whole life. It evokes empathy within the greenseer for that life. So say they mass executed the humans who've been murdering your villages and people, and in most of the memories of those souls the greenseers would have had a massive influx experience of the lives of those captured First Men - the destruction they did, but also their joyous moments, the loving moments etc. If such a mass execution occurred, it would have occurred only once, where the CotF's greenseers would at some point order a halt to it, overcome with the recognition that First Men might be enemies, but also creatures with feelings and souls and a right to live. In other words, such a CotF Nurenberg of FM prisoners who committed genocidal crimes against the CotF, resulted in a call by the greenseers to seek a peace with the FM.

[sweetsunray]

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

It took sacrifice to make these blades. 

The secret imo to making VS:

Steel requires a carbonization process of iron. Carbonization can be done with charcoal, peat, coal and bones. The bones of dragons have a high level of iron within, but they don't burn (logical: the dragons wouldn't live long otherwise). But dragonrider bones? They do burn. As it was custom to burn dragonriders on a pyre, and warriors tend to be buried with their favourite personal weapon, the smiths and magicians in Valyria discovered early on that a certain steel was formed that was sharper and lighter. This secret was preserved, because you didn't want the word out that you could make Valyrian Steel by burning a dragonrider together with an iron or normal steel sword.

The "bones remember" and so the souls of dragonriders are likely indeed within the blades.

[Curled Finger]

@sweetsunray, heady stuff there!  And new to me about the COTF and 1st Men not sacrificing to the weirwoods, so just questions, because that's what i do.  You have laid out 2 beautiful explanations above and I am only familiar with the 2nd as it reminds me of the old days here where we had so much fun breaking down the constituents of steel and bone.  Thanks for that.  To your first statements, though, I am a little confused about sacrificing to the weirwoods.  Are you saying the sacrificing only took place to affect some great act of magic?  

In my reading of the tale I have found that sacrifice is the price of magic.  I admit I have not had a good reread in a year or so, shame on me.  This topic has me pondering magic as the sword without a hilt specifically in the wild north of Westeros.  I reckon the Pact is broken, offerings are not made, monsters are hungry and f*ck this, man will pay because of their lack of reverence and memory.  The lack of balance is sort of where my hat hangs.  Ice magic comes hither to demand its due.  Perhaps justice.    

Is it possible the weirwoods would be satisfied with whatever death fell at their bases happenstance?  The longer I try to reword what I think you said the clearer it is I did not understand.  Straighten a sister out again?  

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, Curled Finger said:

@sweetsunray, heady stuff there!  And new to me about the COTF and 1st Men not sacrificing to the weirwoods, so just questions, because that's what i do.  You have laid out 2 beautiful explanations above and I am only familiar with the 2nd as it reminds me of the old days here where we had so much fun breaking down the constituents of steel and bone.  Thanks for that.  To your first statements, though, I am a little confused about sacrificing to the weirwoods.  Are you saying the sacrificing only took place to affect some great act of magic?  

In my reading of the tale I have found that sacrifice is the price of magic.  I admit I have not had a good reread in a year or so, shame on me.  This topic has me pondering magic as the sword without a hilt specifically in the wild north of Westeros.  I reckon the Pact is broken, offerings are not made, monsters are hungry and f*ck this, man will pay because of their lack of reverence and memory.  The lack of balance is sort of where my hat hangs.  Ice magic comes hither to demand its due.  Perhaps justice.    

Is it possible the weirwoods would be satisfied with whatever death fell at their bases happenstance?  The longer I try to reword what I think you said the clearer it is I did not understand.  Straighten a sister out again?  

I don't think the weirwoods or FM or CotF commit human sacrifice in the way it's used.

A) I think FM and CotF brought criminals before a weirwood so a greenseer could judge whether they were innocent or not - a trial. If anyone can see the truth of someone they apprehended, it would be greenseers, no?

B ) The price of magic is sacrifice, but with the green faction it is voluntary "self-sacrifice", not sacrificing someone else for your personal gain.

C) Ice magic is a different faction for me, who is as much an enemy of greenseers and weirwoods as it is to men.

[Loose Bolt]

15 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'm also wondering about the sacrifices.

I suspect that all spells need blood and souls as a fuel to work. For instance if someone wanted to phone home or technical support he would have to castrate and burn testicles of some poor bastard to make that possible. Anything larger like storm or earthquake would demand human sacrifices to work.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

4 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

I suspect that all spells need blood and souls as a fuel to work. For instance if someone wanted to phone home or technical support he would have to castrate and burn testicles of some poor bastard to make that possible. Anything larger like storm or earthquake would demand human sacrifices to work.

Marwyn said that all Valyrian magic is rooted in fire and blood. I think the "fire" part of that equation is specific to that particular strain of magic, and blood is the common denominator across all strains.

Edited January 22, 2023 by Phylum of Alexandria

[kissdbyfire]

27 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I don't think the weirwoods or FM or CotF commit human sacrifice in the way it's used.

A) I think FM and CotF brought criminals before a weirwood so a greenseer could judge whether they were innocent or not - a trial. If anyone can see the truth of someone they apprehended, it would be greenseers, no?

Hence:

ACoK, Jon II

Jon said, "My lord father believed no man could tell a lie in front of a heart tree. The old gods know when men are lying."

 

27 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

B ) The price of magic is sacrifice, but with the green faction it is voluntary "self-sacrifice", not sacrificing someone else for your personal gain.

Agree. Lots of distortions because people. 

27 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

C) Ice magic is a different faction for me, who is as much an enemy of greenseers and weirwoods as it is to men.

Ice & fire wights, ice & fire shadows, balance is needed for life to go on. 

[LongRider]

12 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Some swords without hilts:

Excellent!

[Phylum of Alexandria]

13 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Some swords without hilts:

Quote

From Sam's POV, the Other he encounters is also described as "sword slim."

[Mourning Star]

23 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I don't think the weirwoods or FM or CotF commit human sacrifice in the way it's used.

I think there is a fair bit of textual evidence that directly contradicts this.

23 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

A) I think FM and CotF brought criminals before a weirwood so a greenseer could judge whether they were innocent or not - a trial. If anyone can see the truth of someone they apprehended, it would be greenseers, no?

I think trials happened, but I think we will see first hand how this can backfire, as the "Old Gods" appear to be the dead gone down into the trees, along with their biases and their hates. I don't think they are some source of objectivity or fairness. I think their "truth" is as subject to opinion as our own.

Also, I think this is part of why violating Guestright is such a sin, those souls would linger on in your Weirwood.

But, I don't think every sacrifice was a a trial either.

23 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

B ) The price of magic is sacrifice, but with the green faction it is voluntary "self-sacrifice", not sacrificing someone else for your personal gain.

I do not agree with this.

Criminals can still be sacrifices.

I don't see any reason to think "the greens faction", whoever they are, are any less self serving than any other group.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that not all singers agree and/or are the same "faction". In fact I think this is likely.

23 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

C) Ice magic is a different faction for me, who is as much an enemy of greenseers and weirwoods as it is to men.

I will be shocked if the children/weirwoods aren't directly linked to the return of the Others.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Mourning Star

[Mourning Star]

My favorite sword without a hilt quote:

"There was a knight once who couldn't see," Bran said stubbornly, as Ser Rodrik went on below. "Old Nan told me about him. He had a long staff with blades at both ends and he could spin it in his hands and chop two men at once."
"Symeon Star-Eyes," Luwin said as he marked numbers in a book. "When he lost his eyes, he put star sapphires in the empty sockets, or so the singers claim. Bran, that is only a story, like the tales of Florian the Fool. A fable from the Age of Heroes." The maester tsked. "You must put these dreams aside, they will only break your heart."

[sweetsunray]

28 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I think there is a fair bit of textual evidence that directly contradicts this.

I think that text is not really much evidence for anything.

28 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

but I think we will see first hand how this can backfire, as the "Old Gods" appear to be the dead gone down into the trees, along with their biases and their hates. I don't think they are some source of objectivity or fairness. I think their "truth" is as subject to opinion as our own.

There appear to be a fair amount of cotf greenseers, one last old human greenseer and a new one.

And iirc that young one managed to be very forgiving to a man he has every reason to hate and see killed - Theon. Instead he gave him his name back.

31 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I don't see any reason to think "the greens faction", whoever they are, are any less self serving than any other group.

They are serving the survival of the natural cycle, which can be ruthless. Or do you think nature and humanity should not defend itself?

32 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I will be shocked if the children/weirwoods aren't directly linked to the return of the Others.

And I would be shocked if they are

[LynnS]

Broken swords could also be considered swords without hilts.   If Jon is his sword Longclaw with its direwolf hilt; then the sword is now broken with body and soul separated.  I'm not sure his body can be resurrected without binding the soul which is safely housed within Ghost for the present.  I don't think Mel or the Others can raise him at this point.

It's not clear to me what happened to Varamyr's body when he died the true death.  Thistle wasn't the only wight that was raised. 

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by LynnS