Petyr Baelish, the man with a plan

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Aebram said:

His hatred of House Stark probably started with the duel with Brandon, and was further inflamed by Ned marrying Cat. One might argue that these are not really valid "causes" for revenge, since the duel was Petyr's idea, and as far as we know, it was all conducted in accordance with the laws and traditions of Westeros. But valid or invalid, these are certainly things that could motivate a teenage boy to want revenge against an entire family.

The duel, as you said yourself, what his idea. Maybe he should have offed himself at 16 and spared Planetos of his evil creepiness, since the whole thing was his own fault. My point is, while I suppose he’s allowed to nurse his grievances all he wants (like a modern day rw politician), that doesn’t mean it’s the fault of the Starks or Tullys or whoever. 

[Aebram]

9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

The duel, as you said yourself, what his idea. Maybe he should have offed himself at 16 and spared Planetos of his evil creepiness, since the whole thing was his own fault. My point is, while I suppose he’s allowed to nurse his grievances all he wants (like a modern day rw politician), that doesn’t mean it’s the fault of the Starks or Tullys or whoever. 

I agree with that. Sorry if I misunderstood your point. I certainly didn't mean to support or justify the anti-Stark hatred.

[astarkchoice]

13 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

Peter Baelish, definitely has a plan. He is capable and cunning, yet narcissistic to his core.

He is no ones friend and everyone's enemy.

He simply uses whoever and whatever is at hand to further his plan. Which seems to be burning the world down.

Sansa taking him down is going to be good. 

Yes 

I suspect his plan gets cleverer and cleverer but is probably foiled by things he doesnt quite get like honour, love or duty in the face of self interest.

His main right hand muscle luthor brune seems infatuated with the stone girl who helps peoplw up the mountain, who sansa befriended ..this could bring petyr down OR  bronze royce seem the sort who would act for honour over profit etc

 

 

 

[Nevets]

7 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Yes 

I suspect his plan gets cleverer and cleverer but is probably foiled by things he doesnt quite get like honour, love or duty in the face of self interest.

His main right hand muscle luthor brune seems infatuated with the stone girl who helps peoplw up the mountain, who sansa befriended ..this could bring petyr down OR  bronze royce seem the sort who would act for honour over profit etc

 

 

 

I suspect that the person he misjudges the worst will be Sansa herself.  She is very much into ideas like honor, friendship, love, and duty.  I can easily see Petyr underestimating her devotion to these ideas and overextending himself, at which point Sansa gives him a nice little shove.

[SeanF]

43 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I suspect that the person he misjudges the worst will be Sansa herself.  She is very much into ideas like honor, friendship, love, and duty.  I can easily see Petyr underestimating her devotion to these ideas and overextending himself, at which point Sansa gives him a nice little shove.

I think the break will come when Petyr tries to get her to go too far in doing evil in his service.  At the moment, he's attempting to corrupt her gradually.

If and when Sweetrobin dies I could see him telling her she knew full well he was being poisoned, and that it's far too late now for her to draw back.  Or that, at any rate, the Vale lords will view her as a poisoner, and only he can protect her.

[astarkchoice]

16 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I suspect that the person he misjudges the worst will be Sansa herself.  She is very much into ideas like honor, friendship, love, and duty.  I can easily see Petyr underestimating her devotion to these ideas and overextending himself, at which point Sansa gives him a nice little shove.

Yep or maybe sweetrobin has overheard a key phrase  somewhere (or betttler yet kept the tears of lys around for sansa to use)

[sifth]

12 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

The duel, as you said yourself, what his idea. Maybe he should have offed himself at 16 and spared Planetos of his evil creepiness, since the whole thing was his own fault. My point is, while I suppose he’s allowed to nurse his grievances all he wants (like a modern day rw politician), that doesn’t mean it’s the fault of the Starks or Tullys or whoever. 

Hate is sort of like love in a way; no one fully understands it. Though in simplest terms the Starks took something he wanted and he can’t get over it. With the Tully’s they thought less of him and he’s spent the entirety of his adult life trying to prove them wrong. 

[kissdbyfire]

20 minutes ago, sifth said:

Hate is sort of like love in a way; no one fully understands it. Though in simplest terms the Starks took something he wanted and he can’t get over it. With the Tully’s they thought less of him and he’s spent the entirety of his adult life trying to prove them wrong. 

And again, that’s on him and not on the objects of his hatred or grievances. Also, please note who I was replying to at the start of this. 

[astarkchoice]

14 minutes ago, sifth said:

Hate is sort of like love in a way; no one fully understands it. Though in simplest terms the Starks took something he wanted and he can’t get over it. With the Tully’s they thought less of him and he’s spent the entirety of his adult life trying to prove them wrong. 

Yeah id say from his perspective its pretty harsh.

He is brought from his little patch of land to one of the wealthiest + powerful houses in the kingdom. Really gets to see how the elite of the elite live (and how  unfair  it is that they are  mostly dumb compared to him but  will all be able to rise higher!) 

Falls for cat  who is bethrothed to some huge northern savage and he gets drunk on the engagement party and in his drunkenn pov  cat comes and sleeps with him , thus  his mind made up now that she loves him too  so  he challenges brandon to a duel and loses badly !!  to rub salt in it cat seems now to be utterly blanking him and his buddy edmure acted as brandons squire while he was cutting lumps out of him. From his perspecrive cat must love him too shes just restricted by society an her family 

Then as he recovers lysa sleeps with him (from his pov their 1st time) and when fully healed hes kicked out by hoster (a guy hes probably seen as a 2nd dad)  now we dont know if lysa told petyr she was pregnant or if he ever got thr moon tea story til later but we do know hes sent from riverrun, hes tasted the high life and power and had it snatched away.....probably less cruel if hed never seen  the upper layers of society at all!!  The final insult is on brandons death he pours his heart out in a letter that gets no response..the love of his life is off to the north to never come back and hes in the fingers..

 

On reflection its no wonder hes the person he is with so much to be bitter of!

 

[sifth]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

And again, that’s on him and not on the objects of his hatred or grievances. Also, please note who I was replying to at the start of this. 

Sorry was just trying to help. Now that I see who you’re replying to, it makes much more sense. Silly me. 

[James Arryn]

9 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Yeah id say from his perspective its pretty harsh.

He is brought from his little patch of land to one of the wealthiest + powerful houses in the kingdom. Really gets to see how the elite of the elite live (and how  unfair  it is that they are  mostly dumb compared to him but  will all be able to rise higher!) 

Falls for cat  who is bethrothed to some huge northern savage and he gets drunk on the engagement party and in his drunkenn pov  cat comes and sleeps with him , thus  his mind made up now that she loves him too  so  he challenges brandon to a duel and loses badly !!  to rub salt in it cat seems now to be utterly blanking him and his buddy edmure acted as brandons squire while he was cutting lumps out of him. From his perspecrive cat must love him too shes just restricted by society an her family 

Then as he recovers lysa sleeps with him (from his pov their 1st time) and when fully healed hes kicked out by hoster (a guy hes probably seen as a 2nd dad)  now we dont know if lysa told petyr she was pregnant or if he ever got thr moon tea story til later but we do know hes sent from riverrun, hes tasted the high life and power and had it snatched away.....probably less cruel if hed never seen  the upper layers of society at all!!  The final insult is on brandons death he pours his heart out in a letter that gets no response..the love of his life is off to the north to never come back and hes in the fingers..

 

It’s all fairly Gatsby, no?

[Many-Faced Votary]

Gatsby? Hopefully that means that Littlefinger will die shot through the heart. 

[James Arryn]

15 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Gatsby? Hopefully that means that Littlefinger will die shot through the heart. 

Well, there’s that. But the whole ‘~ poor boy shown a glimpse of how the rich live, personifying that in an unobtainable woman, bitter rejection, then directing his entire life, through nefarious means, to build himself into the level of wealth that could make her attainable, on the way becoming a pretty corrupted figure, boats against the current, born back ceaselessly into the past’ etc. The difference is that, at least in Scott’s mind, Gatsby at his core is a decent person. GRRM either thinks LF isn’t, or he’s saying that most good people don’t survive that kind of materialistic life quest, and certainly the icons they have forged can never live up to the green light projection. 
 

 

[Many-Faced Votary]

Just now, James Arryn said:

Well, there’s that. But the whole ‘not rich boy shown a glimpse of how the rich live, personifying that in an unobtainable woman, bitter rejection, then directing his entire life, through nefarious means, to build himself into the level of wealth that could make her attainable, on the way becoming a pretty corrupted figure, boats against the current, born back ceaselessly into the past’ etc. The difference is that, at least in Scott’s mind, Gatsby at his core is a decent person. GRRM either thinks LF isn’t, or he’s saying that most good people don’t survive that kind of materialistic life quest, and certainly the icons they have forged can never live up to the green light projection. 

I think there are some important differences here:

• Littlefinger was born as a noble: not just a landed knight, but a lord. Regardless of their standing and lands, that gave him opportunities and threads of opportunity that others couldn't dream of -- including befriending Cat and Lysa in childhood.
  • Littlefinger also got supremely lucky through networking (nepotism through Jon Arryn's patronage), because he exploited Lysa's obsession with him to that end.
• Littlefinger wasn't "corrupted" by his rise; he was corrupt to begin with and increasingly justified each of his atrocities in his lust for power and vengeance.

But otherwise, I fully agree with you and think that he does make a great literary foil (with some strong parallels) to Gatsby.

[James Arryn]

4 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

I think there are some important differences here:

• Littlefinger was born as a noble: not just a landed knight, but a lord. Regardless of their standing and lands, that gave him opportunities and threads of opportunity that others couldn't dream of -- including befriending Cat and Lysa in childhood.
  • Littlefinger also got supremely lucky through networking (nepotism through Jon Arryn's patronage), because he exploited Lysa's obsession with him to that end.
• Littlefinger wasn't "corrupted" by his rise; he was corrupt to begin with and increasingly justified each of his atrocities in his lust for power and vengeance.

But otherwise, I fully agree with you and think that he does make a great literary foil (with some strong parallels) to Gatsby.

Yeah, I was trying to be careful with the ~ poor/not rich thing, but within the landscape GRRM has articulated for us, LF was close to the poorest regular character we meet, alongside Davos, the Cleganes, and a few more. Moreover, Gatsby is imo a pretty autobiographical novel, and FSF was never poor, actually lived in the affluent part of town, but did not have the affluence of his neighbours/peers. So he always felt that distinction sharply, and he fell for two different rich girls…the line ‘rich girls don’t marry poor boys’ is taken literally from the first’s ultimate rejection of him, after they had been ‘courting’ for a fairly long time…and he pretty much devoted his life to rectifying that difference.
 

So imo Gatsby is doubly tragic because Scott lived the lie Gatsby did, but had enough self-perception to see it, can you imagine?…but anyways, Scott’s life probably seemed pretty affluent to most poor Americans, I think his dad owned the town’s main hardware store…but to him the only comparisons were to his wealthier classmates/friends/neighbours. So it’s not about actual status, it’s all about perception. For that matter he might not have just been rejected because he was poor, that might be how it was phrased, or how he perceived it, or w/e, the driving point is his perception. 
 

Secondly, sincere question, do we have anything that shows LF was always corrupt? I honestly don’t remember much being said about his earlier character other than Cat and Lisa finding him nice, compliant, eager to please. 

[Many-Faced Votary]

5 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Secondly, sincere question, do we have anything that shows LF was always corrupt? I honestly don’t remember much being said about his earlier character other than Cat and Lisa finding him nice, compliant, eager to please. 

I think this gets too much into nature-vs.-nurture (the answer is "both") for my intent.

But looking at his deeds, it seems to be the clear behavior of a person who is increasingly willing to justify himself and who never had an ounce of empathy:

• Gaslit and manipulated Lysa her entire life, contributing to her mental decline. (Lysa did rape him, yes, but that's not an appropriate response.)
• Had Lysa kill Jon Arryn, who was a father figure and sort of mentor to him.
• Embezzled from the royal treasury to get all the money for himself and indebt the crown so as to leave the realm in ruins.
• Helped instigate the worst war in the history of Westeros post-Conquest, in multiple ways.
• Betrayed Ned after acting as a false friend, then manipulated Joffrey into executing him. (Also part of the above.)
• Forced and "trained" Jeyne Pool, an 11-year-old girl, into prostitution. Then he sold her to Ramsay Snow, knowing full well about his reputation.
• Hired dwarf jousters for the Purple Wedding, which he used to humiliate and also implicate Tyrion.
• Murdered his own wife, blamed an innocent singer for it, then had him horribly tortured into falsely confessing.
• Gaslighting, grooming, and manipulating Sansa Stark, a 13-year-old girl who is the daughter and spitting image of his former obsession, all while using her as a pawn.
• Forcing a maester to poison Robert Arryn, a young boy who is his stepson.
• Paying Lyn Corbray with "boys" to ferret out and destabilize any threats to his hegemony in the Vale.
• Seeking to steal and store all the food so that he can sell at exorbitant prices no one could afford in the worst winter in living (and dead!) memory.

This cannot be someone who was "corrupted" by his rise. He is fundamentally evil.

(Agreed on your first point!)

[Harry the Hair]

Nah LF only cares for one person and that's LF. People like to blame the Tullys for turning him to the dark side but honestly I don't understand what response they could have given him that wouldn't have set him off? The whole point was that Cat had zero romantic interest in him and was ok with marrying one of the Stark sons. He's deluded himself in to thinking that the only reason why she chose Brandon/Ned over him was out of a misguided sense of duty to her family but she just wasn't that in to you my man. Seriously the only thing that was out of line that the Tully patriarch had any control over was the duel; a teenage boy fighting a grown man was a stupid idea to say the least and in hindsight maybe accepting the challenge just to teach the kid a lesson was not one of Brandon's best ideas. But it also clued us in to just how narcissistic, entitled and arrogant Petyr was. He ignored Cat's feelings and actually thought he could beat Brandon in a physical altercation because if he just wanted a thing hard enough, he'd get it. Not to mention the major social faux pas where he was willing to undermine a vital alliance to the family that essentially took him in because he felt that he was owed something. Lysa raping him was terrible but I don't think that half the continent should be burned to the ground to placate him. I've never seen him champion the interests of the oppressed, in fact he uses and abuses them whenever it serves his interests; he has zero qualms about subjecting Jeyne Poole to rape and violence as long as it serves his purpose. He doesn't want to change the power structure, he just wants to replace whoever sits at the top. Believe me if he somehow managed to become the head of one of the paramount houses, he'd enforce feudalism just like any of the current lords to make sure wealth and power are always within his grasp (and by extension in his descendants grasp). His motives are just pure greed and lust for power.  

[astarkchoice]

6 hours ago, James Arryn said:

16 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Yeah id say from his perspective its pretty harsh.

He is brought from his little patch of land to one of the wealthiest + powerful houses in the kingdom. Really gets to see how the elite of the elite live (and how  unfair  it is that they are  mostly dumb compared to him but  will all be able to rise higher!) 

Falls for cat  who is bethrothed to some huge northern savage and he gets drunk on the engagement party and in his drunkenn pov  cat comes and sleeps with him , thus  his mind made up now that she loves him too  so  he challenges brandon to a duel and loses badly !!  to rub salt in it cat seems now to be utterly blanking him and his buddy edmure acted as brandons squire while he was cutting lumps out of him. From his perspecrive cat must love him too shes just restricted by society an her family 

Then as he recovers lysa sleeps with him (from his pov their 1st time) and when fully healed hes kicked out by hoster (a guy hes probably seen as a 2nd dad)  now we dont know if lysa told petyr she was pregnant or if he ever got thr moon tea story til later but we do know hes sent from riverrun, hes tasted the high life and power and had it snatched away.....probably less cruel if hed never seen  the upper layers of society at all!!  The final insult is on brandons death he pours his heart out in a letter that gets no response..the love of his life is off to the north to never come back and hes in the fingers..

 

It’s all fairly Gatsby, no?

Yeah the poor little pimp had his feelings hurt

[James Arryn]

1 minute ago, astarkchoice said:

Yeah the poor little pimp had his feelings hurt

I’m getting the impression you think I’m somehow defending him?

[astarkchoice]

7 hours ago, James Arryn said:

I’m getting the impression you think I’m somehow defending him?

Nope not at all.

Whatever happened him at the tullys doesnt excuse what hes chosen to do

Like varys hes risen (varys rise much steeper as a non noble)  then choosen to play games with human lives on a massive scale! IF (huge if) he hasnt stolen the crowns finances  then he clearly has a gift that could have been massively useful to all instead of just himself