Jon & Daenerys’ Flaws as Leaders

[Curled Finger]

Why is it so hard to just like both Jon and Dany?  Why does there have to be division like children in kindergarten?  Both stories are about heroes removing boundaries from people, uniting people, freeing people.  They are both good kids.  They both screw up.  They both do amazing things.  It's got to be the sex.  Dany has better and more sex than Jon.  Of course, Dany isn't locked up in a convent, either.  Maybe it's the climates.  Some of these arguments are absurd.  

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

24 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Why is it so hard to just like both Jon and Dany?  Why does there have to be division like children in kindergarten?  Both stories are about heroes removing boundaries from people, uniting people, freeing people.  They are both good kids.  They both screw up.  They both do amazing things.  It's got to be the sex.  Dany has better and more sex than Jon.  Of course, Dany isn't locked up in a convent, either.  Maybe it's the climates.  Some of these arguments are absurd.  

Lol this 100%. I think these folk come from the previous era where people were absurdly talking shit about Daenerys and talking up Jon. Now it’s flipped. Jon & Daenerys are both heroes. Flawed heroes. And both are doing pretty good jobs give. Their circumstances.

[LongRider]

I disagree, been here since 2014 and Dany has always had many fans.  This pinned post found in the Re-Read Project page tells the tale.  

This has many re-read threads and I count five re-read threads devoted to Dany, three re-read threads that she shares with other characters.   In contrast there is one re-read thread devoted to Jon and he's included in the shared re-reads with Dany.  

There may be now more folks who post about Jon, part of that is because of the trolling in threads and trolling threads about Jon.   In my experience, the trolling used to center on Sansa, and now it's Jon.  All trolling sucks. 

There are alot of good re-reads listed on this page, dip in!

 

Edited March 17 by LongRider

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Why is it so hard to just like both Jon and Dany?  Why does there have to be division like children in kindergarten?  Both stories are about heroes removing boundaries from people, uniting people, freeing people.  They are both good kids.  They both screw up.  They both do amazing things.  It's got to be the sex.  Dany has better and more sex than Jon.  Of course, Dany isn't locked up in a convent, either.  Maybe it's the climates.  Some of these arguments are absurd.  

I agree, but trolls need someone to hate, so at the moment Jon is the man of the hour.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Darth Sidious said:

Daenerys is a hero. Jon is not.  
 

Jon’s leadership brought the Order to its lowest point. So they fight a hard-fought battle with Mance and the Wildlings. The human toll was high. The Wildlings end up getting what they want anyway.  Entry. Now, with more mouths to feed, mostly useless for defense. Jon then gets the NW involved in Ramsay and Roose’s business. He sends a sworn brother of the watch to conduct an illegal operation.  He gathers the Wildlings to attack the Boltons. Good thing Bowen took him out.

Daenerys has won every battle by being smart and brave. She won with minimal casualties to her people. She has dealt a severe blow to the evil slave trade. Liberation of millions of slaves is a complicated process because the evil slave masters have been entrenched for thousands of years. It will take time as well as stronger measures. No other leader has tried anything this difficult but yet it must be done. Slavery must end even if it requires war to accomplish. And that is coming. 

Trying really hard to pretend you're not a troll posting. Though I can say that about many of your posts.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

13 minutes ago, sifth said:

Trying really hard to pretend you're not a troll posting. Though I can say that about many of your posts.

Darth Sidious. More like Darth Insipidness.

[Curled Finger]

54 minutes ago, LongRider said:

I disagree, been here since 2014 and Dany has always had many fans.  This pinned post found in the Re-Read Project page tells the tale.  

This has many re-read threads and I count five re-read threads devoted to Dany, three re-read threads that she shares with other characters.   In contrast there is one re-read thread devoted to Jon and he's included in the shared re-reads with Dany.  

There may be now more folks who post about Jon, part of that is because of the trolling in threads and trolling threads about Jon.   In my experience, the trolling used to center on Sansa, and now it's Jon.  All trolling sucks. 

There are alot of good re-reads listed on this page, dip in!

 

You know, I liked both of them at first, but didn't love Dany or Jon at first.  I loved Tyrion, Varys and Little Finger.  That's story, Baby.  I learned to love Jon and Dany over many reads because they are great characters, every bit as great as Tyrion and far more than the weasels.  I don't know, I don't get it, not when there are so many really good conversations, like their flaws and strengths which are fascinating, not cheap comparisons.  They are supposed to mirror each other in many ways.  I never saw the competition, don't understand the argument.  

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

1 minute ago, Curled Finger said:

You know, I liked both of them at first, but didn't love Dany or Jon at first.  I loved Tyrion, Varys and Little Finger.  That's story, Baby.  I learned to love Jon and Dany over many reads because they are great characters, every bit as great as Tyrion and far more than the weasels.  I don't know, I don't get it, not when there are so many really good conversations, like their flaws and strengths which are fascinating, not cheap comparisons.  They are supposed to mirror each other in many ways.  I never saw the competition, don't understand the argument.  

It's weird for me because this is the first I've ever seen Jon vs Dany. So, while I still hate it, it's almost a refreshing change of pace from pitting the ladies against each other. On other websites it's always Dany vs Sansa, Sansa vs Arya, Arianne vs Dany, Cersei vs Brienne. And the one I find the most ridiculous is Stark children vs Sansa.

[Alester Florent]

I always assumed that the Dany stans started with the show and then migrated over to the books bringing their love of "Khaleesi" with them. And presumably they hate Jon because of stuff that happened there too. (I am speculating: I have intentionally avoided spoilers from the show since after season 4, although some have sneaked through regardless.)

I don't know what life here was like before the show.

45 minutes ago, King Maegor the Cool said:

Darth Sidious. More like Darth Insipidness.

Wouldn't it be Darth Sipid?

Edited March 17 by Alester Florent

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

4 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

I always assumed that the Dany stans started with the show and then migrated over to the books bringing their love of "Khaleesi" with them. And presumably they hate Jon because of stuff that happened there too. (I am speculating: I have intentionally avoided spoilers from the show since after season 4, although some have sneaked through regardless.)

I don't know what life here was like before the show.

Wouldn't it be Darth Sipid?

I had an opposite experience with Dany. I watched the show first and couldn't stand her  I finally read the books about halfway through GoT and I really love her book version.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

7 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

I had an opposite experience with Dany. I watched the show first and couldn't stand her  I finally read the books about halfway through GoT and I really love her book version.

See, for me, she fell off as interesting in Dance. Her and Bran’s chapters are so dull for me. Aeron’s chapters would be that level if it weren’t for Euron.

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

1 minute ago, King Maegor the Cool said:

See, for me, she fell off as interesting in Dance. Her and Bran’s chapters are so dull for me. Aeron’s chapters would be that level if it weren’t for Euron.

Bran's POVs are actually my favorite now hehe. But honestly, I get it. I think yours is a popular opinion amongst readers, and I remember being pretty bored with them the first time I read the series. And as for Aeron..

Quote

"Aeron silenced him with a look. In little fishing towns and great stone keeps alike such a look from Damphair would make maids feel faint and send children shrieking to their mothers.."

This is my favorite line of all his chapters 

[SeanF]

The show poisoned the well.

Prior to that, Apple Martini and Tze built up a lot of influence here, branding Dany as The Great Satan, and Jon as Jesus.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

25 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The show poisoned the well.

Prior to that, Apple Martini and Tze built up a lot of influence here, branding Dany as The Great Satan, and Jon as Jesus.

I remember being here then. Apple was relentless. I even agreed with her. But I was like 15. 

[LongRider]

Whatever one thinks of one character or the other, trolling their threads is shit behavior.   I don't like Dany and have never trolled her threads.  What's the point?  Plenty here to talk about without that.  Waiting for Winds is hard enough.  

[sifth]

The simple truth is, they're both good people. To say otherwise, is just inventing your own fan fiction. Yes, they both kill people, but those people are usually extremely horrible people; in Dany's case slavers and in Jon's case a baby killer. These are not the type of people any sane person should feel bad for.

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

And as for Aeron..

Not my cup of tea old Aeron, now if only he knew you loved him!     

[James Arryn]

In terms of their decisions as leaders, in spite of all the Monday Morning Quarterbacking, neither has made too many obvious errors where better ones were clearly available. Dany has made more, but she’s had a lot more decisions to make, too. I think I trust Jon’s personality…not leadership…more than Dany’s because he tries to account for his own temper…each of them has that as an issue…more, whereas I think Dany has been ~ taught that her temper is a strength. 
 

But for their ages, they have both been remarkably good leaders in very difficult circumstances aided by tons of plot armour, so hard to say. 

[SeanF]

22 hours ago, King Maegor the Cool said:

See, for me, she fell off as interesting in Dance. Her and Bran’s chapters are so dull for me. Aeron’s chapters would be that level if it weren’t for Euron.

I do feel athat  lot of the Meereen storyline is just wheels spinning.  It really makes little sense (given what had been established hitherto about her character) that she was so desperate to make peace (almost at any price) with the slavers.  In TWOW, I presume she'd barbecue them, but she ought to have been barbecuing them in ADWD.