Why is Cersei hated so much when neither version is even in top 25 most evil characters of the whole Ice and Fire franchise (which includes the books, TV show and games)?

[Craving Peaches]

Does all of OP's knowledge come from reading the TV Tropes page on the series?

[boltons are sick]

Regarding Cersei here is why she commits her crimes:

1) She kills Robert's bastards to secure her children's positions and to avoid anyone discovering the truth like Ned Stark did if they look at the children.

2) She sends several people to Qyburn to build her an unstoppable undead warrior who would protect her and her children from any dangers because at this point she is growing paranoid and believes everyone wants to harm her son.

3) She tries to kill Margaery to prevent Maggy's prophecy from coming true and it's explicitely shown that she believes this would save her children.

4) She tortures the Blue Bard to make sure that Margaery would be accused which is again connected to her trying to save her children from Maggy's prophecy.

 Those ARE NOT justifiable motivations, but I am really tired of everyone presenting anything Tywin does as him just being pragmatic and "doing what needs to be done" while Cersei's actions are portrayed as her just being spiteful when her POV clearly shows that her worst actions are done to save her family from Maggy's prophecy. Neither Tywin nor Cersei are justified, but doing bad things because you believe that you and your children are in danger is a lot more understandable than ordering a young girl gang-raped and forcing your own son to participate because "you want to teach him a lesson".

Edited April 6, 2023 by boltons are sick

[boltons are sick]

Also, by the logic most people use here, someone like Theon is also morally worse than Tywin because he also doesn't know how to rule which is shown when he takes over Winterfell. Nevermind that Tywin has done much worse things than him.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, boltons are sick said:

1) She kills Robert's bastards to secure her children's positions and to avoid anyone discovering the truth like Ned Stark did.

But we are told at least two were killed because of her pride...

Just now, boltons are sick said:

2) She sends several people to Qyburn to build her an unstoppable undead warrior who would protect her and her children from any dangers.

Yes, obviously a frail old woman and young maid would be such a great help for that, it is not like she sent Falyse down there because she didn't want people to find out about her plan to kill Bronn, and sent Senelle because she thought she was spying on her... At this point you are ignoring the text. Cersei in the books did not know that Qyburn was creating an undead warrior, all she knew was that he needed test subjects and that they would be 'used up'.

There is no point in discussing further if you are going to continue to ignore the text to advance your argument.

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

And the reason the Tyrells blockaded was because of the war, and why was there a war? Because of Cersei's fraud and incest.

And Joff said if they whole family didn’t come bend the knee he’d attaint them all as traitors.

[LongRider]

7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Does all of OP's knowledge come from reading the TV Tropes page on the series?

Then it becomes received wisdom that we all should admire from him.  Thinking for ourselves would be bad, apparently.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, LongRider said:

Thinking for ourselves would be bad, apparently.

It would be bad if it goes against the OP's opinion.

[kissdbyfire]

9 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Given the content of one of the replies upthread, I suspect lack of familiarity with the books.  It gives a long list of Littlefinger's crimes, about half of which aren't even in the books.

That and other things made me ask the question. Because this apparent lack of familiarity w/ the books kind of makes this whole discussion kind of moot since we wouldn’t even be talking about the same thing. 

[boltons are sick]

Just now, Craving Peaches said:

But we are told at least two were killed because of her pride...

This information comes from Littlefinger who was trying to get Ned to dislike Cersei at that moment. This is the same man who told Sansa while he was trying to turn her against Tyrion that Tyrion ordered his 12-year-old wife gang-raped when he grew bored of her, so I don't trust anything he says.

 

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes, obviously a frail old woman and young maid would be such a great help for that, it is not like she sent Falyse down there because she didn't want people to find out about her plan to kill Bronn, and sent Senelle because she thought she was spying on her... At this point you are ignoring the text. Cersei in the books did not know that Qyburn was creating an undead warrior, all she knew was that he needed test subjects and that they would be 'used up'.

There is no point in discussing further if you are going to continue to ignore the text to advance your argument.

Cersei and Qyburn literally have a conversation about Qyburn's project where it's mentioned that Cersei provided him with a very big armor for it and warned him about the consequences about what would happen if it doesn't live up to her expectations. Just because Ser Robert Strong is not mentioned at that point doesn't mena she didn't know about him and she just sends him some people who happen to be inconvenient to her. Not saying there wasn't a great deal of spite when she sent some of them, but her primarily motivation was for Qyburn to build Robert Strong.

[Craving Peaches]

If you must use a wiki at least use the dedicated wiki for the books, which would refute some of these erroneous claims straight away.

Quote

When Lady Falyse Stokeworth comes to Cersei in despair after the failure of their plans to kill Ser Bronn of the Blackwater, who had married Falyse's sister Lollys, Cersei tells Qyburn to take her for his experiments, to make her disappear.[16][17] 

So yeah, nothing to do with protecting children by building an undead warrior.

[boltons are sick]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

That and other things made me ask the question. Because this apparent lack of familiarity w/ the books kind of makes this whole discussion kind of moot since we wouldn’t even be talking about the same thing. 

It's not lack of familiarity. It's just that I am only listing what they do in the TV show because they qualify as Complete Monsters only there (if you go and actually bother to read the list again, you would see that). Their book counterparts have some very minor mitigating factors which disqualify them from being Complete Monsters.

[SeanF]

Killing people in self-defence, or to save one’s children from attack, is fair.

Murdering innocents, who have not attacked or threatened oneself or one’s children, cannot be justified.  Even if one thinks it enhances one’s chances of survival.

It is not an example of the trolley problem, where one is forced to choose between two  imminent bad outcomes.

 

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, boltons are sick said:

Cersei and Qyburn literally have a conversation about Qyburn's project where it's mentioned that Cersei provided him with a very big armor for it and warned him about the consequences about what would happen if it doesn't live up to her expectations.

After she already sent all those people there, so that had no bearing on her decision to send them there.

Just now, boltons are sick said:

Just because Ser Robert Strong is not mentioned at that point doesn't mena she didn't know about him

We are literally inside her head, we would know if she knew before.

Just now, boltons are sick said:

This information comes from Littlefinger who was trying to get Ned to dislike Cersei at that moment. This is the same man who told Sansa while he was trying to turn her against Tyrion that Tyrion ordered his 12-year-old wife gang-raped when he grew bored of her, so I don't trust anything he says.

If Littlefinger is suspect then Cersei definitely is not reliable either. So if I'm not allowed to believe Littlefinger I certainly won't be believing Cersei. Also Ned can ask Varys for clarification on anything Baelish says, so why would he lie? And we see nothing to contradict this story.

[boltons are sick]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

If you must use a wiki at least use the dedicated wiki for the books, which would refute some of these erroneous claims straight away.

So yeah, nothing to do with protecting children by building an undead warrior.

Just because she also wants to get rid of her for her failed attempt at Bron, doesn't mean she is not doing it to build an undead warrior.

 You completely ignored the fact that Cersei is shown to be aware and she even feels a bit uncomfortable at the thought of what is happening to those women.

[LongRider]

1 minute ago, boltons are sick said:

It's not lack of familiarity. It's just that I am only listing what they do in the TV show because they qualify as Complete Monsters only there (if you go and actually bother to read the list again, you would see that). Their book counterparts have some very minor mitigating factors which disqualify them from being Complete Monsters.

You're in the wrong part of the forum if it's the show you want to discuss.  This is the book part of the forum.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, boltons are sick said:

It's just that I am only listing what they do in the TV show

This section of the forum is for discussion of the books only.

1 minute ago, boltons are sick said:

qualify as Complete Monsters only there (if you go and actually bother to read the list again, you would see that

Why should we when we are in the book only forum?

[Craving Peaches]

4 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

Just because she also wants to get rid of her for her failed attempt at Bron, doesn't mean she is not doing it to build an undead warrior

There is no evidence she knew of that at the time at all other than you wanting it to be the case. There is ample evidence that she did it solely to get rid of evidence of her plan to off Bronn since that is what is in the written text and there is nothing to contradict it or suggest any other motive.

4 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

You completely ignored the fact that Cersei is shown to be aware and she even feels a bit uncomfortable at the thought of what is happening to those women.

Yeah, because she knows they're being experimented on and that they were 'used up'. She doesn't know anything beyond that.

And sorry, but who cares if she feels a 'bit uncomfortable' at yet another person she's sending to be tortured? Oh great, should we give her a bloody medal? An average decent person wouldn't do that in the first place.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[boltons are sick]

Just now, Craving Peaches said:

After she already sent all those people there, so that had no bearing on her decision to send them there.

We are literally inside her head, we would know if she knew before.

If Littlefinger is suspect then Cersei definitely is not reliable either. So if I'm not allowed to believe Littlefinger I certainly won't be believing Cersei. Also Ned can ask Varys for clarification on anything Baelish says, so why would he lie? And we see nothing to contradict this story.

Just because GRRM decided to leave Ser Robert Strong a surprise and didn't include it in Cersei's thoughts for that reason, doesn't mean she didn't know. This is just GRRM's style.

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, boltons are sick said:

Just because she also wants to get rid of her for her failed attempt at Bron, doesn't mean she is not doing it to build an undead warrior.

 You completely ignored the fact that Cersei is shown to be aware and she even feels a bit uncomfortable at the thought of what is happening to those women.

What is being done to these women is vivisection, without anaesthetic, to the point that they go insane and die screaming.

That is what the Khmer Rouge were doing at Tuol Sleng, under Comrade Duch.  Prisoners had their blood drained out to provide transfusions to injured soldiers.  Many went mad as they were dying.

That is a level of evil which few characters descend to in this tale.

 

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

Just because GRRM decided to leave Ser Robert Strong a surprise and didn't include it in Cersei's thoughts for that reason, doesn't mean she didn't know. This is just GRRM's style.

I will need evidence from the author to confirm that, not just your opinion.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Craving Peaches