Ser Meryn “The Loyal” Trant

[Mord the Gaoler]

I think Ser Meryn Trant gets a bad rap as a character. I actually respect him for being a consistent Kingsguard member for 17  years.  In the show he takes on the role of Boros Blount a craven and Rafford the Sweetling a pedophile. In the books he’s described as cruel and sly but never a coward or an incompetent knight. I personally think he fought very well during Roberts Rebellin to get his white cloak. He wasn’t always Cersei’s creature being a Stormlander who fought for Robert and they seem around the same age. He had no Lewyn Martell oath breaking rumors swirling around him.
 

 

He was a creature of Cersei true, but also a very good tourney knight and an extremely loyal guard for the Baratheon family. Ser Meryn really had no choice but to serve the queen after all those years in the red keep. Who else ran the day to day of the court during all those years of peace. The King was probably passed out hungover or whoring on most days. Getting close with the Queen I’m sure made his life easier. I never liked how Jamie came back and talked down to him for following Joffreys orders to beat Sansa. What else could he do? Everyone else who was asked to beat Sansa did. They had no choice. But he’s called not a true knight and a horrible child beater.  Did Jamie or Barristan ever protect the weak from the mad king. Never. Not once. Aerys beat and raped his wife repeatedly. Jaime was told to go away inside and ignore it. I think Ser Meryn does the same. Tyrion, Tywin and Jamie didn’t look at Joffrey as a king they had to follow blindly. Of course not, they knew him as a bratty nephew/Grandson not their king, that’s why they defied and embarrassed him. Meryn doesn’t have that option. He would lose his white cloak and be in the black cells very quickly.

 

Even Sansa stated that Ser Meryn Trant didn’t hate her. He looked at her like a stupid child. Even she knew he had no hatred for her, he was just doing his job. But I doubt he would go around slapping little girls if he wasn’t ordered to.  It’s not like he can refuse and get a write up. How can you be a true knight when you literally are sworn to obey another’s orders?  I respect Ser Meryn as a loyal kingsguard for almost 18 years, asshole or not. I believe he would die for Tommen/Cersei in the upcoming books when Faegon attacks no questions asked. That’s respectable to me. I’m talking strictly Ser Trant from the books. Thoughts?

{He did not hate her, Sansa realized; neither did he love her. He felt nothing for her at all. She was only a … a thing to him. “No,” she said, rising. She wanted to rage, to hurt him as he’d hurt her, to warn him that when she was queen she would have him exiled if he ever dared strike her again … but she remembered what the Hound had told her, so all she said was, “I shall do whatever His Grace commands.” 
“As I do,” he replied. 
“Yes … but you are no true knight, Ser Meryn.”   
Sandor Clegane would have laughed at that, Sansa knew. Other men might have cursed her, warned her to keep silent, even begged for her forgiveness. Ser Meryn Trant did none of these. Ser Meryn Trant simply did not care.}

Edited May 10, 2023 by Mord the Gaoler
Spacing

[Nevets]

I think of Ser Meryn as being something of a non-entity.  He's not a coward, but not an important character either.  He's there so George can have someone to carry out tasks that need a KG, but nobody important.  Arresting Arya, beating Sansa, and the like.  He's too useful to kill off, but not important enough to do anything major.

In-world, he is loyal to Cersei and will no doubt protect Tommen to the best of his ability, which may not be much.  Margaery described him as old and slow.  He's on Arya's list, but doesn't really belong.  I doubt it will matter, though.  He's not important enough to be worth George's trouble to bring them together.  If Arya runs into anyone on her list, it will be Ilyn Payne, who deserves to be on the list even less than Ser Meryn does.  

Long story short: not a hero, not a villain, and not particularly important.  Big shrug.

[astarkchoice]

Dunno

 

"I was only following orders" defence   has never carried any weight nor should it

[The hairy bear]

2 hours ago, Mord the Gaoler said:

I think Ser Meryn Trant gets a bad rap as a character. I actually respect him for being a consistent Kingsguard member for 17  years. In the show he takes on the role of Boros Blount a craven and Rafford the Sweetling a pedophile. In the books he’s described as cruel and sly but never a coward or an incompetent knight.  I personally think he fought very well during Roberts Rebellin to get his white cloak.

Jaime Lannister knows Ser Meryn Trant very well, and he thinks of him as "sly and cruel", and no more than an "adequate fighter". In a conversation with Loras Tyrell, he actually brings up Trant and Blount as examples of mediocre knights.

The only tourney victories that we know from him are against Harwin and Ser Hobber Redywine. Not particularly impressive. He didn't participate at the Battle of the Blackwater, since he stayed all the time near Joffrey. And then, he fails to seize Arya Stark when he was fully armored and accompanied with five men, and only had to face a single man armed with a wooden sword. All things considered, he doesn't seem much worthy of the white cloak.

2 hours ago, Mord the Gaoler said:

Ser Meryn really had no choice but to serve the queen after all those years in the red keep. Who else ran the day to day of the court during all those years of peace. The King was probably passed out hungover or whoring on most days. Getting close with the Queen I’m sure made his life easier.

The day to day of the court was run by the Hand, of course. It's to him that Ser Meryn should have gone when the King was hungover or whoring.

If when you say that the Queen made his life easier you mean that she had bought his loyalty, then I'd agree. And that's precisely why he is a bad KG.

2 hours ago, Mord the Gaoler said:

I never liked how Jamie came back and talked down to him for following Joffreys orders to beat Sansa. What else could he do? Everyone else who was asked to beat Sansa did. They had no choice. But he’s called not a true knight and a horrible child beater. 

They had a choice. The Hound didn't beat Sansa when Joffrey ordered him. And Ser Aryn Oakheart:

Once he even objected when Joffrey commanded him to hit her. He did hit her in the end, but not hard as Ser Meryn or Ser Boros might have, and at least he had argued.

Edited May 10, 2023 by The hairy bear

[sifth]

Does this man have any great accomplishments aside from beating Sansa and most likely killing Syrio, who fought him with only a stick, while Trant faced him with a sword and full armor? 

Edited May 10, 2023 by sifth

[Alester Florent]

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

They had a choice. The Hound didn't beat Sansa when Joffrey ordered him. And Ser Aryn Oakheart:

Once he even objected when Joffrey commanded him to hit her. He did hit her in the end, but not hard as Ser Meryn or Ser Boros might have, and at least he had argued.

I had wondered about the Hound, but when I thought about it, wasn't it that Joff never ordered him to hit her? With the implication that the reason for this was that he knew he might refuse.

Robert's Kingsguard is pretty mediocre and Meryn Trant is perhaps the most mediocre of the lot (Boros being outright poor).

[The hairy bear]

@Desiring Nectarines

You correctly recall that in her first ACOK chapter, Sansa claims that "Joff never asked the Hound to punish her. He used the other five for that."

But later on, when news of battle of Oxcross arrive, Joffrey orders Sandor to hit her. Ser Dontos intervenes, to Joffrey's displeasure, and the Hound remains quiet. Then Joffrey orders Meryn and Borros to hit Sansa and after the first punches the Hound tries to stop it ("Enough"). Joffrey refuses to stop, and then Tyrion enters the room and puts an end to it.

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

4 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Dunno

 

"I was only following orders" defence   has never carried any weight nor should it

And it especially won't work with someone like Jaime. Someone who understands the consequences of obeying and serving a cruel king without question or challenge. In such cases, kingsguard vows majorly contradict knightly vows. This is a major problem that Jaime tries to convey to Brienne throughout their journey together. Every kingsguard member does have a choice. That's why Jaime killed Aerys and partly why Sandor left the KG. It's why Arys Oakheart is haunted by his own actions. It's why the loyalties of Aerys' kingsguard split. If Prince Rhaegar's plan was to dethrone his father, then his own loyal KG would be choosing to break their vows. These men made their choices and owned up to them.

And Ser Meryn is terrible because he simply doesn't care.

There's a line from Kingdom of Heaven that I think about often.

Quote

"A king may move a man, a father may claim a son, but that man can also move himself, and only then does that man truly begin his own game. Remember that howsoever you are played or by whom, your soul is in your keeping alone, even though those who presume to play you be kings or men of power. When you stand before God, you cannot say, "But I was told by others to do thus," or that virtue was not convenient at the time. This will not suffice. Remember that."

-King Baldwin IV

 

Edited May 10, 2023 by Ser Arthurs Dawn

[Mord the Gaoler]

7 hours ago, Nevets said:

I think of Ser Meryn as being something of a non-entity.  He's not a coward, but not an important character either.  He's there so George can have someone to carry out tasks that need a KG, but nobody important.  Arresting Arya, beating Sansa, and the like.  He's too useful to kill off, but not important enough to do anything major.

In-world, he is loyal to Cersei and will no doubt protect Tommen to the best of his ability, which may not be much.  Margaery described him as old and slow.  He's on Arya's list, but doesn't really belong.  I doubt it will matter, though.  He's not important enough to be worth George's trouble to bring them together.  If Arya runs into anyone on her list, it will be Ilyn Payne, who deserves to be on the list even less than Ser Meryn does.  

Long story short: not a hero, not a villain, and not particularly important.  Big shrug.

I agree with you. He’s not really important as a henchman and goon for Cersei and Joffrey. But he appears in probably more chapters than any other non POV character.  That makes him have some kind of presence in the story. Also when I look at the Kingsguard page. He’s there every time with no scandals like mostly everyone else.  
 

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Kingsguard#Robert_I_Baratheon_.28283.E2.80.93298_AC.29

[Jon Fossoway]

You know, not every minor character in the novels are actually that deep...

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

 

10 hours ago, Mord the Gaoler said:

I respect Ser Meryn as a loyal kingsguard for almost 18 years, asshole or not. I believe he would die for Tommen/Cersei in the upcoming books when Faegon attacks no questions asked. That’s respectable to me.

I don't know why you'd believe that, but if you would...

You aren't in the market for real estate right now, are you? I got a buddy who would love to help you out.

Edited May 10, 2023 by Aejohn the Conqueroo

[Mord the Gaoler]

8 hours ago, sifth said:

Does this man have any great accomplishments aside from beating Sansa and most likely killing Syrio, who fought him with only a stick, while Trant faced him with a sword and full armor? 

He’s such a minor character with no backstory at all. So we have no idea. But he probably fought well during the rebellion. Maybe even killed Jonothor Darry or did courageous during a battle to get a white cloak. Cersei wouldn’t know him then. Plus he won many jousts and melees to be known as a successful tourney night. Also I’m sure he fought in the Greyjoy rebellion also. We don’t know. But he’s also had 15 years of peace. 

[Mord the Gaoler]

36 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

 

I don't know why you'd believe that, but if you would...

You aren't in the market for real estate right now, are you? I got a buddy who would love to help you out.

Why do you think he would not fight?That’s literally his only purpose in life to protect Tommen and Cersei. He’s not a craven like Boros Blount. And he loves being a Kingsguard. He’s not going to run away from Kingslanding like The Hound.  I’ll pass on that home. Interest rates are crazy lol. 

[Mord the Gaoler]

2 hours ago, Jon Fossoway said:

You know, not every minor character in the novels are actually that deep...

That’s the point of this forum. He’s appeared in more chapters than any other non POV character. Plus looking at the Kingsguard page. Almost everyone of his brothers in white, gets killed, dismissed, captured, imprisoned, injured in battle, made a foot taster. If Balon Swann doesn’t return from Dorne, he’s literally the only Kingsguard doing their job day to day. That’s admirable IMO. 

[Mord the Gaoler]

5 hours ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

And it especially won't work with someone like Jaime. Someone who understands the consequences of obeying and serving a cruel king without question or challenge. In such cases, kingsguard vows majorly contradict knightly vows. This is a major problem that Jaime tries to convey to Brienne throughout their journey together. Every kingsguard member does have a choice. That's why Jaime killed Aerys and partly why Sandor left the KG. It's why Arys Oakheart is haunted by his own actions. It's why the loyalties of Aerys' kingsguard split. If Prince Rhaegar's plan was to dethrone his father, then his own loyal KG would be choosing to break their vows. These men made their choices and owned up to them.

And Ser Meryn is terrible because he simply doesn't care.

There's a line from Kingdom of Heaven that I think about often.

 

That the point Im making, all Kingsguard need to act like they don’t care. Protect the king and keep his secrets and never judge him.  Jaime was taught to be indifferent also when The Mad King raped and chewed on his wife frequently. Ser Meryn has no option but to act like he doesn’t care, or go inside like Jaime learned. 

[Mord the Gaoler]

5 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

@Desiring Nectarines

You correctly recall that in her first ACOK chapter, Sansa claims that "Joff never asked the Hound to punish her. He used the other five for that."

But later on, when news of battle of Oxcross arrive, Joffrey orders Sandor to hit her. Ser Dontos intervenes, to Joffrey's displeasure, and the Hound remains quiet. Then Joffrey orders Meryn and Borros to hit Sansa and after the first punches the Hound tries to stop it ("Enough"). Joffrey refuses to stop, and then Tyrion enters the room and puts an end to it.

Davos, Ned, Jon, and Stannis are the only characters I think would lose their white cloak and go to the black cells rather than beat Sansa. Ser Barristan probably would do it too. You can’t just defy the king and get wrote up and keep it moving. 

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Mord the Gaoler said:

He’s such a minor character with no backstory at all. So we have no idea. But he probably fought well during the rebellion. Maybe even killed Jonothor Darry or did courageous during a battle to get a white cloak. Cersei wouldn’t know him then. Plus he won many jousts and melees to be known as a successful tourney night. Also I’m sure he fought in the Greyjoy rebellion also. We don’t know. But he’s also had 15 years of peace. 

You're using conjecture. I'm a person of facts and simply put the guys only accomplishment is being the guy who beat a little girl.............because he was just obeying orders.

[Mord the Gaoler]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

You're using conjecture. I'm a person of facts and simply put the guys only accomplishment is being the guy who beat a little girl.............because he was just obeying orders.

Exactly. We have 0 backstory on him. But I think it’s safe to say he had to at least fought in Roberts Rebellion to be named to the Kingsguard right after the war. 
 

That’s the point of this topic. He’s known as the little girl beater. When everyone else did it when ordered to. He really didn’t have much of an option to refuse. He would lose his white cloak, money, home and possibly his life going against someone like Joffrey. 

[The hairy bear]

13 hours ago, Mord the Gaoler said:

Davos, Ned, Jon, and Stannis are the only characters I think would lose their white cloak and go to the black cells rather than beat Sansa. Ser Barristan probably would do it too. You can’t just defy the king and get wrote up and keep it moving. 

There are surely many others who wouldn't do it. Don't forget that the king is underage and there's a regent and a Hand that can overrule him. If he gives orders that are highly unethical, you could always double-check with them.

But even if one doesn't dare to disobey the king, there are many other thinks that ANY half-way decent man would do. Try not to hit too hard, for one. Hit her just once when you are told to, instead of continuing to beat her senseless until ordered to stop. Perhaps muster a feeble complaint, or suggest to the king to punish Sansa in other ways. At the very, very least, try to look a little conflicted?!

13 hours ago, Mord the Gaoler said:

That the point Im making, all Kingsguard need to act like they don’t care. Protect the king and keep his secrets and never judge him.  Jaime was taught to be indifferent also when The Mad King raped and chewed on his wife frequently.

You take the context out of the situation, which was Gerold Hightower trying to ease a sixteen year old. But the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard is part of the Small Council (which means that he is supposed to speak up and contribute with his opinions), Gerold Hightower was probably involved in a Rhaegar-led conspiracy to depose the Mad King, and Jaime himself instructs Ser Meryn to do the opposite:

Ser Meryn got a stubborn look on his face. "Are you telling us not to obey the king?"

 

"The king is eight. Our first duty is to protect him, which includes protecting him from himself. Use that ugly thing you keep inside your helm. If Tommen wants you to saddle his horse, obey him. If he tells you to kill his horse, come to me."

 

11 hours ago, Mord the Gaoler said:

Exactly. We have 0 backstory on him. But I think it’s safe to say he had to at least fought in Roberts Rebellion to be named to the Kingsguard right after the war.

It's also safe to say that if in normal conditions it's not that easy to find reputed and trustworthy knights willing to renounce to any inheritance to serve the king, in Robert's case it was even more complicated: he had to fill five positions at once, it was a dangerous job as he was still widely seen as an usurper, he couldn't rely in half the realm as they had Targaryen loyalties, many young knights had died during the civil war, the prestige of the KG was at an all time low after Jaime had killed Aerys,...

So it's not a surprise that the candidates ended being a little bit sub-par.