Lefty Internal Politics: How to Talk About This Stuff?

[Phylum of Alexandria]

Just now, DMC said:

Okay, mischaracterizations? Flattening? Exaggerating? Overgeneralizing? Distorting to the point where I wonder where it is you came up with the notion that you're attacking?

If not straw men, what term should I use?

[Week]

3 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Okay, mischaracterizations? Flattening? Exaggerating? Overgeneralizing? Distorting to the point where I wonder where it is you came up with the notion that you're attacking?

If not straw men, what term should I use?

The examples you've used - academia, SF DA, etc. have been cherry picked examples to accentuate a cleavage that you are trying to argue. I'd call that straw manning, personally.

You could argue why or why not instead of jumping into the hamster wheel of how argumentation should work.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Week

[Phylum of Alexandria]

1 minute ago, Week said:

The examples you've used - academia, SF DA, etc. have been cherry picked examples to accentuate a cleavage that you are trying to argue. I'd call that straw manning, personally.

You could argue why or why not instead of jumping into the hamster wheel of how argumentation should work.

Well, even if you are correct and I am using straw men, it's a separate matter as to whether DMC is using them. And what I am calling his straw men are what he is trying to hold me accountable for.  That's quite different from trying to articulate a point and come up with some theoretical examples of excess that some people think are not reasonable.

[Kalbear]

I do appreciate this being the Bakhmut of forum topics. Please do carry on as you were!

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

Please do carry on as you were!

Nah, I'm done with this horseshit.

[Week]

2 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Well, even if you are correct and I am using straw men, it's a separate matter as to whether DMC is using them. And what I am calling his straw men are what he is trying to hold me accountable for.  That's quite different from trying to articulate a point and come up with some theoretical examples of excess that some people think are not reasonable.

It's where you started. You're asking for more than you yourself provided and damning the responses you've received. Perhaps, there's a reason why responses were as they were?

/Principal Skinner meme - Am I out of touch? No, it's the children who are wrong!

[Phylum of Alexandria]

17 minutes ago, Week said:

It's where you started. You're asking for more than you yourself provided and damning the responses you've received. Perhaps, there's a reason why responses were as they were?

/Principal Skinner meme - Am I out of touch? No, it's the children who are wrong!

Not all of the responses, by any means. Most of the pushback has been polite and helpful.

Speaking of straw men, how can anything I've said be construed as "damning" the responses I've received? I'm simply done with commenters who rage like angry drunks, or are convinced I'm evil/stupid/etc no matter what I write.

I'm not saying you are necessarily in that camp, but you seem to think you are. So you don't like the examples of excess that I gave. Would you care to talk about why? Can you accept that there are examples of excess--of taking an admirable principal and pushing it too far--out there in the world? If so, let me know what you think is valid. If not, let me know why not.

As much as you guys have ragged on that comment, it took me 2 hours to write. If you think you can illuminate the problem better than I can, by all means try to do so, but put in the effort. I guarantee that I won't be as easily dismissive as you few are being. Even if I disagree, I respect people who put in the effort, and try to approach in good faith.

[Zorral]

4 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

My online comments are full of mistakes, oversimplifications, and possibly poor rhetoric.

So why do you post at all, since your posts are full of what you said?  And why are you complaining that people don't have respect for your posts since your posts are full of what you said?  Even when something isn't going into an academic journal you have an obligation to facts, honesty and clarity.  This is as true when it comes to 'issues' as it is when instructing someone who hasn't done it before how to change a baby's diaper.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

11 minutes ago, Zorral said:

So why do you post at all, since your posts are full of what you said?  And why are you complaining that people don't have respect for your posts since your posts are full of what you said?  Even when something isn't going into an academic journal you have an obligation to facts, honesty and clarity.  This is as true when it comes to 'issues' as it is when instructing someone who hasn't done it before how to change a baby's diaper.

Well, I'm simply admitting to being a human being writing informal thoughts on a comment forum. Just as everyone here is.

I mean, I wasn't going to give you flack for that comment about Anti-fa not existing outside of right wing propaganda, but that was one of the more out-there takes I've seen. I'm sure you have better moments elsewhere--I mean, I know you have a PhD--so I'm just assuming it was a one-off brain fart or something. It's easy to judge others, but it's important we all try to approach this with some humility and knowledge of our own fallibility.

 

[Week]

35 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Speaking of straw men, how can anything I've said be construed as "damning" the responses I've received? I'm simply done with commenters who rage like angry drunks, or are convinced I'm evil/stupid/etc no matter what I write.

~"I'm not damning any responses just leveling ad hominem replies and disengaging."

I'll grant you that we could *all* give each other a bit more grace...

I have seen a lot of legitimate pushback on your long post that you haven't responded to at all.

I'm not really sure what the point for this thread at this point -- is it discourse on discourse solely or you looking for substantive engagement on the issues? 

[Week]

3 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I mean, I wasn't going to give you flack for that comment about Anti-fa not existing outside of right wing propaganda

It does not exist as a hierarchical, organized, aggressive, progressive force - an equivalent to fascist gangs like the Proud Boys. It does exist as a foil to those groups that will self-organize to protect communities threatened by said fascistic groups.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Week

[Phylum of Alexandria]

Just now, Week said:

I'll grant you that we could *all* give each other a bit more grace...

 

Amen.

Just now, Week said:

I have seen a lot of legitimate pushback on your long post that you haven't responded to at all.

I'm not really sure what the point for this thread at this point -- is it discourse on discourse solely or you looking for substantive engagement on the issues? 

I told you in the last comment that the long post took a lot of time and effort to write out. And I invited you to take your own effort to unpack what it was you disagreed with, what it was you might agree with, and other ways to start a real conversation. I said before, I don't want an interrogation, and I don't want an effort that only I put time and energy to be the fodder for someone else's reflexive takedown because they're bored.

If you truly want me to engage on those topics, I want to be sure you're willing to put in the effort, in good faith. I have engaged with others who have done so, but that doesn't mean I engage in any and all types of pushback. I am now actively avoiding the lazy, or bad faith, or just plain aggressive stuff. If you don't think that's fair, or I'm lame, or whatever, you're free to do so. I just don't want to waste my time and effort on what seems to be a dead end. If you don't think it's a dead end, put in some effort to assuage my doubts. If not, that's okay too.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

2 minutes ago, Week said:

It does not exist as a hierarchical, organized, aggressive, progressive force - an equivalent to fascist gangs like the Proud Boys. It does exist as a foil to those groups that will self-organize to protect communities threatened by said fascistic groups.

I agree, and no one else tried to talk about Antifa in that way. I did make the point that decentralized movements are often bad for message control, and can easily get defined by the right wing based on the ugliest actions of a few. But that's neither here nor there: it's a strange thing to say they don't exist at all.

[Conflicting Thought]

5 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Amen.

I told you in the last comment that the long post took a lot of time and effort to write out. And I invited you to take your own effort to unpack what it was you disagreed with, what it was you might agree with, and other ways to start a real conversation. I said before, I don't want an interrogation, and I don't want an effort that only I put time and energy to be the fodder for someone else's reflexive takedown because they're bored.

If you truly want me to engage on those topics, I want to be sure you're willing to put in the effort, in good faith. I have engaged with others who have done so, but that doesn't mean I engage in any and all types of pushback. I am now actively avoiding the lazy, or bad faith, or just plain aggressive stuff. If you don't think that's fair, or I'm lame, or whatever, you're free to do so. I just don't want to waste my time and effort on what seems to be a dead end. If you don't think it's a dead end, put in some effort to assuage my doubts. If not, that's okay too.

it just seems to me that you are the one that doesnt engage in good faith, but you mask it very well i guess, it would be interesting to me to see you respond to dmc's pushback, but you dont want to, and your reasons for not doing so,to me, are week sauce.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

1 minute ago, Conflicting Thought said:

it just seems to me that you are the one that doesnt engage in good faith, but you mask it very well i guess, it would be interesting to me to see you respond to dmc's pushback, but you dont want to, and your reasons for not doing so,to me, are week sauce.

I don't think of DMC engagements as in good faith. That's not to say they couldn't be, but have not been on this thread, towards me at least. As I said, I'm not interested in interrogations. I mean, I'm not in it for your entertainment. Unless you'll be sending some funds my way?

You want me to engage in a conversation, just see how all of the other commenters voiced their critiques, the ones where we had a civil back and forth. I'm not asking for a lot here. DMC actually says all the time that he doesn't need to comment they way I would prefer people comment, and that's true. But it applies to me too! I don't think the standard internet flame war format is worth it. You're trying to goad me into it is pointless.

If you want me to engage with you, put in some effort and try to level with me on a particular point. Or don't, and we'll leave it at that. It's very simple.

[DMC]

4 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

You want me to engage in a conversation, just see how all of the other commenters voiced their critiques, the ones where we had a civil back and forth. I'm not asking for a lot here. DMC actually says all the time that he doesn't need to comment they way I would prefer people comment, and that's true. But it applies to me too! I don't think the standard internet flame war format is worth it. You're trying to goad me into it is pointless.

You keep on referring to me in the third person as if I violated you or slept with your sister or something simply because my post wasn't as polite as you deem as "correct" behavior.  Either stop this or answer the direct questions I'll re-post below, but please cease posing as if I'm trying to engage you in a flame war just by asking you to respond to literally what you wrote:

There is plenty in my response you could try to address - for instance, why is criminal justice reform such a problem for you beyond the messaging?  Or what evidence do you have for universities actually engaging in what you are accusing them of?  Or what does it matter that you had to fill out a diversity form to apply to schools?  Or why increased diversity in entertainment constitutes "mass indoctrination"?  Or what the hell evangelicals and the rise of the religious right 40 years ago has to with your argument?  Or why progressives trying to advance solutions to real world problems shouldn't just because it upsets people?  Or what the hell the Dunning-Kruger effect has to do with any of this?

[Phylum of Alexandria]

Just now, DMC said:

You keep on referring to me in the third person as if I violated you or slept with your sister or something simply because my post wasn't as polite as you deem as "correct" behavior.  Either stop this or answer the direct questions I'll re-post below, but please cease posing as if I'm trying to engage you in a flame war just by asking you to respond to literally what you wrote:

There is plenty in my response you could try to address - for instance, why is criminal justice reform such a problem for you beyond the messaging?  Or what evidence do you have for universities actually engaging in what you are accusing them of?  Or what does it matter that you had to fill out a diversity form to apply to schools?  Or why increased diversity in entertainment constitutes "mass indoctrination"?  Or what the hell evangelicals and the rise of the religious right 40 years ago has to with your argument?  Or why progressives trying to advance solutions to real world problems shouldn't just because it upsets people?  Or what the hell the Dunning-Kruger effect has to do with any of this?

Jesus, you are tedious. People asked, and so I answered. But now I am blocking. Have a wonderful life and enjoy your anger problems.

[Week]

That's unfortunate. Substantively, I'm in agreement DMC's response. 

[Zorral]

7 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Anti-fa not existing outside of right wing propaganda,

It does not.  It is a name created by the fascists for those of any kind, particularly in the realm of Black Lives Matter, that push back in public against the neo nazis and fascists, the same nazis, white supremacists, election deniers, climate change deniers etc., who often false flag  making a protest become violent. Which has been proven by many investigations. This is documented all over the place.  Your determination to make 'antifa' the equivalent of Proud Boys, etc. is preposterous, just again, beginning with the fact it doesn't exist except in bad faith minds like yours.

Show me just one real example, taken to court and convicted, of anybody who is part of 'Antifa'.  Good grief the wrongwingers, reichwingers, all have complained that they can't because there is no organized ideological group they can go and arrest members of.

Edited June 3, 2023 by Zorral

[Zorral]

8 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

informal thoughts

Yet you have the obligation to commit the courtesy of respect to those you expect to read your comments to be clear, organized and factual. Otherwise you're just another guy on a bar stool who has had at least two drinks over his limit blathering senselessly and boring everyone. 

IOW, you cannot claim you're just effin' around and not bringing a mature game and then complain that people aren't taking you seriously.

 

Edited June 3, 2023 by Zorral