How did the Freys still have a Bridge Monopoly?

[Craving Peaches]

Somehow in hundreds of years there has not even been an attempt to build an alternative bridge? And before someone says that the Freys strangled any potential competition in its cradle, they only really have the ability to enforce that in their own lands. Especially given the tolls, there is a great incentive for someone else to build a new bridge, to avoid paying the Frey tolls and charge their own. It wouldn't have to be anything fancy. But no one has even tried. Why? It is like the lack of any even attempted slave revolts in Essos. Over hundreds of years no one has even tried to challenge the status quo? Not even once? Is everyone In-Universe just that inclined to complacency and maintaining the usual state of things?

[Nevets]

29 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Somehow in hundreds of years there has not even been an attempt to build an alternative bridge? And before someone says that the Freys strangled any potential competition in its cradle, they only really have the ability to enforce that in their own lands. Especially given the tolls, there is a great incentive for someone else to build a new bridge, to avoid paying the Frey tolls and charge their own. It wouldn't have to be anything fancy. But no one has even tried. Why? It is like the lack of any even attempted slave revolts in Essos. Over hundreds of years no one has even tried to challenge the status quo? Not even once? Is everyone In-Universe just that inclined to complacency and maintaining the usual state of things?

I suspect that the Houses along the Green Fork are vassals to the Freys.  If so, they would be under Frey authority, and unable to build a bridge without permission, which they would not get.

Also, any bridge would have to be large enough to handle the expected traffic.  That would be large indeed.  It would require a significant outlay of money upfront, and I doubt anyone has that kind of money lying around, and modern finance doesn't exist.  Plus, it would piss off the Freys, and I doubt anyone wants to do that.

We also have no real idea what the terrain is like.  It may be unsuitable for a bridge or for the heavily-used roads that would need to be built to lead to it.

With the Freys on everybody's shit list, these obstacles could potentially be overcome, if the Crown or collected River Lords are sufficiently interested

[Otatop1000]

Somone posted somewhere, can’t remember where(great citing I know), that there could have been a purely overland route through the neck around the start of the trident down to seagard and to oldstones on to riverun.  Again topography, the neck is impassable but the reeds should have been friends for our dear friend Robb.  I know not the point of the post.  But it looks like it’s there on the maps.  No road per se but it must be possible.

[astarkchoice]

10 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Somehow in hundreds of years there has not even been an attempt to build an alternative bridge? And before someone says that the Freys strangled any potential competition in its cradle, they only really have the ability to enforce that in their own lands. Especially given the tolls, there is a great incentive for someone else to build a new bridge, to avoid paying the Frey tolls and charge their own. It wouldn't have to be anything fancy. But no one has even tried. Why? It is like the lack of any even attempted slave revolts in Essos. Over hundreds of years no one has even tried to challenge the status quo? Not even once? Is everyone In-Universe just that inclined to complacency and maintaining the usual state of things?

They are a powerful house whos lands would extend considerable miles around , around that may be  some of their lesser vassals. 

There dont seem to be any other houses near them to contest the river and further north we run into crannogmen boglands so they  simply probably took the northernmost area that could support a major structure being built! 

We can assume their vassals where houses who had the same idea but were beaten down into submission

[Alden Rothack]

4 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

They are a powerful house whos lands would extend considerable miles around , around that may be  some of their lesser vassals. 

There dont seem to be any other houses near them to contest the river and further north we run into crannogmen boglands so they  simply probably took the northernmost area that could support a major structure being built! 

We can assume their vassals where houses who had the same idea but were beaten down into submission

its worth noting that at least one noble house which previously featured separately is now a vassal and at least one perhaps two houses the Harroways and Oldstones are both ruins, the Freys appear to be the only major house on the eastern bank of the green fork at all

[CassDarry]

16 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Somehow in hundreds of years there has not even been an attempt to build an alternative bridge? And before someone says that the Freys strangled any potential competition in its cradle, they only really have the ability to enforce that in their own lands. Especially given the tolls, there is a great incentive for someone else to build a new bridge, to avoid paying the Frey tolls and charge their own. It wouldn't have to be anything fancy. But no one has even tried. Why? It is like the lack of any even attempted slave revolts in Essos. Over hundreds of years no one has even tried to challenge the status quo? Not even once? Is everyone In-Universe just that inclined to complacency and maintaining the usual state of things?

I've pondered this before,

I've not came up with anything ground breaking but I always though it would either be any of the following or combination.

1. Great or Noble houses don't want to lower themselves to build a bridge for their income, I get this feeling by how they treat the upjumped freys and to an extent Lord Butterwell.

2. The Freys got the BEST/only place to be abke to build a bridge and roads in that part of the country. Not sure how they got their land in the first place?

3. The Freys have lands alongside the river banks rather than surrounding the twins. (If they did, why not build more bridges?)

[astarkchoice]

37 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

its worth noting that at least one noble house which previously featured separately is now a vassal and at least one perhaps two houses the Harroways and Oldstones are both ruins, the Freys appear to be the only major house on the eastern bank of the green fork at all

Id say its clear the freys have fought for this 'exclusive right' and won

[Alden Rothack]

1 hour ago, CassDarry said:

I've pondered this before,

I've not came up with anything ground breaking but I always though it would either be any of the following or combination.

1. Great or Noble houses don't want to lower themselves to build a bridge for their income, I get this feeling by how they treat the upjumped freys and to an extent Lord Butterwell.

2. The Freys got the BEST/only place to be abke to build a bridge and roads in that part of the country. Not sure how they got their land in the first place?

3. The Freys have lands alongside the river banks rather than surrounding the twins. (If they did, why not build more bridges?)

the frey lands appear to be mostly on the eastern bank based on the fact that the Mallisters among others are very close on the other side but theres nobody but them north of harroway town and saltpans

 

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

Id say its clear the freys have fought for this 'exclusive right' and won

yeah which explains why the earlier freys were much better at fighting.

[astarkchoice]

23 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

 

 

yeah which explains why the earlier freys were much better at fighting.

They seem ok at it now too,  they are no better or worse than most.

Bear in mind 99.99% of their armies are just non frey  landed knights and men at arms trained and armed just like any other houses and have 0 lineage with the freys themselves.

Overall in combat they seem adverage for westeros  .....that said Black walder seems like  the exception being a formidable sob!

[Alden Rothack]

2 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

They seem ok at it now too,  they are no better or worse than most.

Bear in mind 99.99% of their armies are just non frey  landed knights and men at arms trained and armed just like any other houses and have 0 lineage with the freys themselves.

Overall in combat they seem adverage for westeros  .....that said Black walder seems like  the exception being a formidable sob!

more like 95% or lower, theres a hundred or so freys in an army of some thousands

your point is somewhat valid but even the best soldiers which they aren't can be ineffective if badly led.

[astarkchoice]

53 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

more like 95% or lower, theres a hundred or so freys in an army of some thousands

your point is somewhat valid but even the best soldiers which they aren't can be ineffective if badly led.

Their leadership is mixed, the red weding planing was brilliantly handled down to the last detail, the men under black walder etc handle themselves fine..they do get sloppy with the riverlands siege but then again its understandable theyd be a bit smug and complacent that the war is all but over

[Alden Rothack]

4 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Their leadership is mixed, the red weding planing was brilliantly handled down to the last detail, the men under black walder etc handle themselves fine..they do get sloppy with the riverlands siege but then again its understandable theyd be a bit smug and complacent that the war is all but over

they suceeded with superior numbers, surprise and being the only ones fully equipted but they still fifty frey men and probably some bolton, karstark and others as well, brillant would be not losing scores of men and letting one of your most important targets escape

[astarkchoice]

12 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

they suceeded with superior numbers, surprise and being the only ones fully equipted but they still fifty frey men and probably some bolton, karstark and others as well, brillant would be not losing scores of men and letting one of your most important targets escape

Given the sheer scale of it , it was well planned man, a few troops out of thousands getting to their weapons and fighting back doesnt make it a disaster...thats really  reaching.

[Alden Rothack]

4 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Given the sheer scale of it , it was well planned man, a few troops out of thousands getting to their weapons and fighting back doesnt make it a disaster...thats really  reaching.

its not brillant either, on the other hand several of the people on the other side are brillant and have more men

[astarkchoice]

6 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

its not brillant either, on the other hand several of the people on the other side are brillant and have more men

7? Id say robb and brynden at most ..who else is the brilliant general?

[Alden Rothack]

18 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

7? Id say robb and brynden at most ..who else is the brilliant general?

Several not seven, several being more than one but less than a handful

I'd put also Roose ahead of any of the freys

i'm not sure who has more acceptable commanders though.

[Leonardo Abreu]

I have always wondered quite the opposite. How did they get so powerful by building a bridge that to me is mostly used by Jason Mallister to take a holiday on the Narrow Sea beaches?

It was important for Robb to attack the Riverrun besiegers, sure, but on day to day? I don’t see a major trade route passing there to justify their status.

[astarkchoice]

2 hours ago, Alden Rothack said:

Several not seven, several being more than one but less than a handful

I'd put also Roose ahead of any of the freys

i'm not sure who has more acceptable commanders though.

Roose is a good commander agreed

The green fork people.forget he almost won it all.for the north 

[James Arryn]

3 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Their leadership is mixed, the red weding planing was brilliantly handled down to the last detail, the men under black walder etc handle themselves fine..they do get sloppy with the riverlands siege but then again its understandable theyd be a bit smug and complacent that the war is all but over

I also think the RL campaign is George trying to give the readers a more accurate picture of medieval warfare, where major set piece battles were very rare and usually avoided by both parties. Instead it was this kind of constant low level siege and sally life that becomes more about endurance (particularly to famine and disease, siege warfare’s two main death dealers) and odds, and occasional choices. During the HYW soldiers could live entire lives never getting a sniff of anything like an Agincourt, but spending their entire life fighting at war. 

Edited June 7, 2023 by James Arryn

[sifth]

To be honest, The Twins often feel like a macguffin at best, and a plot hole at worst. There's only one massive bridge that takes people from one side of the Neck, to the other and the Tully's allow a house of questionable loyalty to use it. A lot of those things just seem a little too convenient to me.

Edited June 7, 2023 by sifth