Why do people ignore that Daenerys sold women into slavery?

[TheLastWolf]

On 6/24/2023 at 9:23 AM, SeanF said:

less bad than multiple rape.

is now marital rape. Primitive to force marriage on rape victims.  I could never understand the reasoning behind that. 

[SaffronLady]

53 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

is now marital rape. Primitive to force marriage on rape victims.  I could never understand the reasoning behind that. 

Establishing a dependency meant some form of restrictions and duties. No marriage meant none of it. Kind of important in an era where food production was less than one hundredth of what it is now.

What do they say, freedom is expensive.

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

is now marital rape. Primitive to force marriage on rape victims.  I could never understand the reasoning behind that. 

It's less bad than the alternatives.  In real life, among steppe peoples, when one tribe completely defeated another, it was very common for victors to inherit the families of the men who had been defeated and killed.  The alternatives would have been keeping them as chattel slaves, or leaving them to die.

Here, the alternatives are raping the women till they die, or selling them as slaves.

[TheLastWolf]

52 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It's less bad than the alternatives.  In real life, among steppe peoples, when one tribe completely defeated another, it was very common for victors to inherit the families of the men who had been defeated and killed.  The alternatives would have been keeping them as chattel slaves, or leaving them to die.

Here, the alternatives are raping the women till they die, or selling them as slaves.

But Dany had the choice to do anything she wished, if she could force them to marry, she could just as well let them go free. She did and went on to do shit that defied medieval norms way more than this.

3 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Establishing a dependency meant some form of restrictions and duties. No marriage meant none of it. Kind of important in an era where food production was less than one hundredth of what it is now.

What do they say, freedom is expensive.

I get that, but after rape? I mean where I come from there was and still is (rare as a three footed hare) a custom of marrying off the victim to the rapist for her (read: men of her family) honour and such. If the rapist is still alive that is. Women have always been vessels for men's grievances.

Edited January 3 by TheLastWolf

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

But Dany had the choice to do anything she wished, if she could force them to marry, she could just as well let them go free. She did and went on to do shit that defied medieval norms way more than this.

I get that, but after rape? I mean where I come from there was and still is (rare as a three footed hare) a custom of marrying off the victim to the rapist for her (read: men of her family) honour and such. If the rapist is still alive that is. Women have always been vessels for men's grievances.

She had no power to free anybody, until after Drogo died.  Even when she suggested it, "she wondered if she had gone too far."

[SaffronLady]

2 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

I get that, but after rape?

If you find tolerating that stopgap absolutely impossible, write a fix fic and drop a modern country in Planetos.

Yes, marriage after rape exists - is common - for Eurasian nomads. No idea about Native American Plains People, though.

[SeanF]

55 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

If you find tolerating that stopgap absolutely impossible, write a fix fic and drop a modern country in Planetos.

Yes, marriage after rape exists - is common - for Eurasian nomads. No idea about Native American Plains People, though.

We’ve touched on it in worldbuilding discussions.  A big tribe is more secure than a small tribe.  Taking the women and children of the enemy means a bigger tribe.  They’re far too valuable to sell as slaves.

[TheLastWolf]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

She had no power to free anybody, until after Drogo died.  Even when she suggested it, "she wondered if she had gone too far."

Sorry, I misplaced the timeline so assumed she had more freedom 

1 hour ago, SaffronLady said:

If you find tolerating that stopgap absolutely impossible, write a fix fic and drop a modern country in Planetos

Hey, I've no issue with your dependency point, but I don't see the relevance with her liberating the women by forcing marriage.

[SaffronLady]

28 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

I don't see the relevance with her liberating the women by forcing marriage.

I see, I misunderstood your confusion.

[Alester Florent]

Rape is a deeply sensitive topic and one I always feel a bit uncomfortable discussing, not least because I think the mods discourage it. But it's also very easy for it to be slammed down like a kind of trump card in discussions and I think that can sometimes lead us down the wrong path, especially given that I've seen people do the same regarding the series as a whole ("ASoIaF is bad because it's too rapey") (although that is at least better than the alternative "ASoIaF is bad because it's not rapey enough" - and yes, I have seen that, but as with what follows, context is important).

GRRM is writing a "grimdark" medieval-ish fantasy and he doesn't shy away from the less savoury elements of that kind of setting nor do his characters necessarily reflect up-to-the-minute thinking on the subject. (It's worth pointing out too that the conversation around consent in 2023 is in a very different place to where it was in 1996 when the first book was written).

And in a world where producing heirs is the first and most important duty of any lord (especially a king), and where arranged marriages are the norm, notions around consent and what is and is not acceptable are going to be very different to how we imagine them now. We should also remember that, in general but among the Dothraki in particular, the setting is with only a couple of exceptions deeply patriarchal, women have limited rights, power or legal protection, fornication is frowned upon, and children born out of wedlock are not only discriminated against institutionally but will be a socio-economic liability for the mother.

Let's remember too that Dany is immersed in this system. She herself was married off to a husband not of her choosing, at a young age, who entertains haphazard notions about consent, and she has not only gained power as a result of this, but fallen in love with him.

By pushing for the Dothraki to marry the women they have raped, then, she truly believes she is doing the best thing for them. She would consider herself an example of how this can work out well (we might call "Stockholm syndrome", or not). By obliging marriage, she is giving those women rights, the societal protection of a husband, and obliging the Dothraki fathers to stick around and provide for those women rather than discarding them and leaving them to suffer.

This kind of thing has a historical basis, of course. There's a reason that "rape" means both "non-consensual sex" and "abduction", because in the kind of world we're talking about, the two are closely related conceptually, and it was far from unheard of for a guy to kidnap a lady and force her into marriage in order to get hold of her inheritance or the like (see: Ramsay and Lady Hornwood).

Do we, as readers, have to sit back and accept all this? No, of course not. But I do think we have to at least try to look at it from the characters' perspectives when we're making judgements, and take account of the context and society that they find themselves in, rather than necessarily taking a black and white approach. Am I comfortable with having to do that? No, not entirely. We can either treat that as part of the point in the books (no black and white, only shades of grey) or a feature of the books we find distasteful (that it's trying to force us to defend things we find indefensible by our standards) but that's a Doylist problem, not a Wastsonian one.

[Lord Lannister]

There's a lot you can be critical of Daenerys about but sometimes people reach too hard. Sure Dany was party to the actions of Drogo's horde in some ways. It's why I have a hard time feeling bad for her feeling betrayed by MMD. But she wasn't going to be able to stop it. This was legitmiately a young girl nudging events into a less terrible outcome for those women. Sometimes that's all you can do. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

So. Dany didn’t actually have power to do thst. She made a suggestion to Khal Drogo which she thought was a better option.

This topic makes no sense because it acts like Dany was in power and not essentially completely powerless BUT could possibly help people’s lived because Khal Drogo loved her and might listen to her. Whar exactly should Dany have done in this situation. Unfair and ridiculous criticism. 

[astarkchoice]

On 6/24/2023 at 4:36 AM, King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd said:

When the Dothraki attack the Lhazareen in GoT, Dany essentially forces the men to marry the women they were raping. Essentially forcing these women into sexual servitude and no one seems to bring it up.

Big picture sport, she was also in the middle of letting her husband take enough  slaves to help her conquer westeros!! Whats a fee half dozen more vs the thousands that would need to feel the lash so she could.wear a crown

[SeanF]

On 1/4/2024 at 1:14 PM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

So. Dany didn’t actually have power to do thst. She made a suggestion to Khal Drogo which she thought was a better option.

This topic makes no sense because it acts like Dany was in power and not essentially completely powerless BUT could possibly help people’s lived because Khal Drogo loved her and might listen to her. Whar exactly should Dany have done in this situation. Unfair and ridiculous criticism. 

Agreed.  A 13 year old girl is not C in C of the Dothraki military operations. No other female character attracts so much blame for her husband’s/son’s/brother’s wartime atrocities.

[frenin]

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

Agreed.  A 13 year old girl is not C in C of the Dothraki military operations. No other female character attracts so much blame for her husband’s/son’s/brother’s wartime atrocities.

Again, it isn't that she's fully to blame but that she goaded Drogo into war and seize the godsend opportunity Robert sent her to sway him completely.

Did she order the rapes and massacres? No.  Was she a factor in the rapes and massacres? Yes.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Again, it isn't that she's fully to blame but that she goaded Drogo into war and seize the godsend opportunity Robert sent her to sway him completely.

Did she order the rapes and massacres? No.  Was she a factor in the rapes and massacres? Yes.

At least in my copy of AGOT (pp. 592-4), she’s thinking that this won’t be the last attempt to kill her, not, this a godsend.  All she does is give Drogo a factual account of what happened. Jorah then tells him, accurately, that Robert ordered the hit.  Jorah knows this from Varys (who is keen to provoke an invasion).  For Varys, it doesn’t matter if the hit is successful, or botched, so long as Drogo knows who ordered it.

I don’t think Dany is supposed to just accept that  she and Rhaego merit the same fate as Elia and her children, for being a Targaryen.

The hit was not ordered because of anything she said or did.  It was ordered because Varys reported to the Small Council that she had become pregnant, and Robert feared that her child would lead an invasion (p.351).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 6 by SeanF

[frenin]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

At least in my copy of AGOT (pp. 592-4), she’s thinking that this won’t be the last attempt to kill her, not, this a godsend.  All she does is give Drogo a factual account of what happened. Jorah then tells him, accurately, that Robert ordered the hit.  Jorah knows this from Varys (who is keen to provoke an invasion).  For Varys, it doesn’t matter if the hit is successful, or botched, so long as Drogo knows who ordered it.

She's thinking that she needs whatever she has to persuade Drogo into invading and then Robert's hit gives her the ammo she was desperately trying to find.

 

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I don’t think Dany is supposed to just accept that  she and Rhaego merit the same fate as Elia and her children, for being a Targaryen.

She was spared for more than a decade of that same fate... Hits only started coming when her brother and her, a child still even tho she'd take his mantle anyway, started plotting against Robert.

 

 

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

The hit was not ordered because of anything she said or did.  It was ordered because Varys reported to the Small Council that she had become pregnant, and Robert feared that her child would lead an invasion (p.351).

The hit was ordered directly because Robert knew that the deal was to marry Dany to the most powerful Khal in Essos to invade. Something Viserys admits and that Dany tries to do as well.

Quote

The khal’s mouth twisted in a frown beneath the droop of his long mustachio. “The stallion who mounts the world has no need of iron chairs.” Dany propped herself on an elbow to look up at him, so tall and magnificent. She loved his hair especially. It had never been cut; he had never known defeat. “It was prophesied that the stallion will ride to the ends of the earth,” she said. “The earth ends at the black salt sea,” Drogo answered at once. He wet a cloth in a basin of warm water to wipe the sweat and oil from his skin. “No horse can cross the poison water.” “In the Free Cities, there are ships by the thousand,” Dany told him, as she had told him before. “Wooden horses with a hundred legs, that fly across the sea on wings full of wind.”  Khal Drogo did not want to hear it. “We will speak no more of wooden horses and iron chairs.” He dropped the cloth and began to dress. “This day, I will go to the grass and hunt, woman wife,” he announced as he shrugged into a painted vest and buckled on a wide belt with heavy medallions of silver, gold, and bronze. “Yes, my sun-and-stars,” Dany said. Drogo would take his bloodriders and ride in search of hrakkar, the great white lion of the plains. If they returned triumphant, her lord husband’s joy would be fierce, and he might be willing to hear her out.

 

Quote

The knight came at once. He wore horsehair leggings and painted vest, like a rider. Coarse black hair covered his thick chest and muscular arms. “My princess. How may I serve you?” “You must talk to my lord husband,” Dany said. “Drogo says the stallion who mounts the world will have all the lands of the earth to rule, and no need to cross the poison water. He talks of leading his khalasar east after Rhaego is born, to plunder the lands around the Jade Sea.” The knight looked thoughtful. “The khal has never seen the Seven Kingdoms,” he said. “They are nothing to him. If he thinks of them at all, no doubt he thinks of islands, a few small cities clinging to rocks in the manner of Lorath or Lys, surrounded by stormy seas. The riches of the east must seem a more tempting prospect.” “But he must ride west,” Dany said, despairing. “Please, help me make him understand.” She had never seen the Seven Kingdoms either, no more than Drogo, yet she felt as though she knew them from all the tales her brother had told her. Viserys had promised her a thousand times that he would take her back one day, but he was dead now and his promises had died with him.

Robert is not the smartest tool in the box but even he clearly could see a plot against him, a plot that both siblings confirm to be trying to bring to fruition... hence the hit.

There's a clear cause and effect here that you for some reason are refusing to omit. No,Dany is not the guiltiest party in all this but the notion that she plays no part in this tale is just false.

 

[SeanF]

40 minutes ago, frenin said:

She's thinking that she needs whatever she has to persuade Drogo into invading and then Robert's hit gives her the ammo she was desperately trying to find.

 

She was spared for more than a decade of that same fate... Hits only started coming when her brother and her, a child still even tho she'd take his mantle anyway, started plotting against Robert.

 

 

The hit was ordered directly because Robert knew that the deal was to marry Dany to the most powerful Khal in Essos to invade. Something Viserys admits and that Dany tries to do as well.

 

Robert is not the smartest tool in the box but even he clearly could see a plot against him, a plot that both siblings confirm to be trying to bring to fruition... hence the hit.

There's a clear cause and effect here that you for some reason are refusing to omit. No,Dany is not the guiltiest party in all this but the notion that she plays no part in this tale is just false.

 

How is she supposed to avoid marriage to Drogo, or bearing his child?  Those are the reasons Robert gives for wanting to kill her, initially to Ned, later to his Small Council, not that she’s some teenage genius masterminding a worldwide conspiracy against him.  That would be laughed out of court by his councillors.  Her “conspiracy” is a couple of conversations with Ser Jorah, and one with her husband.  

Robert would still be trying to kill her, had she said nothing at all to either Jorah or Drogo..  It’s who she is, not what she does, that is the threat.

Is she meant to run away?  Kill herself so that Robert’s fat arse can rest securely on the throne?  Abort her child? Turn against Viserys?  Poison Drogo?

What she is, for most of AGOT, is a pawn, like Sansa, Margaery, Roslin Frey, and every other teenage noblewoman in this tale. Some of these marriages come with military alliances, but by and large, putting out hits on teenage brides is frowned upon.

Saying “No” to the marriage, to sex with her husband, to her brother, was simply never a realistic option.  There is no reason to believe she played any part in the negotiations that led to her marriage, in return for an army.

Edited January 6 by SeanF

[frenin]

21 minutes ago, SeanF said:

How is she supposed to avoid marriage to Drogo, or bearing his child?

She cannot avoid that, yet that marriage is the price Viserys pays for Drogo's army to invade Westeros.

Dany and Robert are well aware of that fact and after Viserys dies, Dany takes on to the mantle of insisting Drogo to keep the end of his bargain.

 

 

[SeanF]

27 minutes ago, frenin said:

She cannot avoid that, yet that marriage is the price Viserys pays for Drogo's army to invade Westeros.

Dany and Robert are well aware of that fact and after Viserys dies, Dany takes on to the mantle of insisting Drogo to keep the end of his bargain.

 

 

The hit is ordered, well before Viserys gets his golden crown (in fact, he’s included).

If nothing else, it’s utterly stupid.  The poisoner is an amateur, seeking a lordship, and Dothraki khals don’t just forgive and forget the murder, or attempted murder, of their wives.

Edited January 6 by SeanF