Let's figure out Pretty Pia

[Seams]

I have the feeling that Pretty Pia is an important allegorical character, perhaps linked to Lollys and Tysha because of the sexual violence inflicted on them.

Quote

Pretty Pia from the buttery was a slut who was working her way through every knight in the castle. 

Clash, Arya VII.

She works in the buttery at Harrenhal, and that might mean she is linked to House Darry (wordplay on dairy), milk brothers, The Milkwater, Whitewalls (an egg symbol), Lord Butterwell and other elements of the dairy motif. (Cheese alone offers dozens of possible interpretations.)

For what it's worth, Gatehouse Ami (Amerei Frey), is also promiscuous and is linked to House Darry (her father is Merrett Frey and her mother is Mariya Darry). Pia wants to have sex with Jaime Lannister but he declines. Ami wants to sleep with her husband, Lancel Lannister, but he becomes religious and won't consummate the marriage.

Arya sees three Frey men-at-arms raping the captive Pia in the courtyard at Harrenhal. She is being punished for sleeping with Lannister supporters before the northmen break out and (supposedly) take over Harrenhal under Roose Bolton's command. 

Quote

... a girl named Pia, who was not near as pretty as she had been when Jaime saw her last. Someone had broken her nose and knocked out half her teeth. The girl fell at Jaime's feet when she saw him, sobbing and clinging to his leg with hysterical strength till Strongboar pulled her off. "No one will hurt you now," he told her, but that only made her sob the louder.

Feast, Jaime III

Strongboar is Lyle Crakhall. Amerei Frey's grandmother was a Crakehall. Strongboar is part of Jaime's force sent to end the stand-off at Riverrun. He ends up at Darry in AFfC and promises Amerei that he will hunt down The Hound (Sandor Clegane) and kill him, although the outrages believed to have been committed by The Hound were mostly committed by others wearing his helmet.

I believe that Pia also has a pig connection. For a sound-alike name, Pretty Pig seems like a possible parallel to Pretty Pia. 

Quote

" ... Run to the buttery; his goatship will be wanting butter and cheese. Wake up Pia and tell her she'd best be nimble for once, if she wants to keep both of her feet."

She ran as fast as she could. Pia was awake in the loft, moaning under one of the Mummers, but she slipped back into her clothes quick enough when she heard Arya shout. 

Clash, Arya IX

Pretty Pig is part of the mummer jousting act. GRRM is deliberately vague about whether Groat or Penny "rides" Pretty Pig. When Tyrion finally joins Penny's act, he rides Pretty Pig. Could this be the consummation, finally, of the characters trying to seduce Jaime and Lancel? Pia was punished for sleeping Lannister bannermen, so maybe that counts. But Tyrion is finally the  genuine Lannister who rides the pig. 

But Pia and Gatehouse Ami also have parallels to Brienne. 

Quote

Jaime gave him a cool look. "She did not say who sent her."

The maester smiled modestly. "Your fever was largely gone, and I thought you might enjoy a bit of exercise. Pia is quite skilled, would you not agree? And so . . . willing."

She had been that, certainly. She had slipped in his door and out of her clothes so quickly that Jaime had thought he was still dreaming.

Sending her away had not been easy after that, but Jaime had done it all the same. I have a woman, he reminded himself. "Do you send girls to everyone you leech?" he asked Qyburn.

"More often Lord Vargo sends them to me. He likes me to examine them, before . . . well, suffice it to say that once he loved unwisely, and he has no wish to do so again. But have no fear, Pia is quite healthy. As is your maid of Tarth."

Jaime gave him a sharp look. "Brienne?"

Storm, Jaime VI

Brienne is given the ironic nickname of Brienne the Beauty. Pia also becomes physically unattractive, making "Pretty Pia" an ironic name:

Quote

Of Lady Whent's people, only three remained—the cook who had opened the postern gate for Ser Gregor, a bent-back armorer called Ben Blackthumb, and a girl named Pia, who was not near as pretty as she had been when Jaime saw her last. Someone had broken her nose and knocked out half her teeth.

Feast, Jaime III

Brienne is associated with the color blue - she has beautiful blue eyes, her horse wears blue bardings in the melee where she defeats Ser Loras, she becomes Renly's blue guard, the blue water around the Isle of Tarth leads to Jaime's rumor about her family fortune in sapphires.

Gatehouse Ami's first husband was named Pate of the Blue Fork. 

Jaime ends up taking Pia away from Harrenhal, at the request of the pious castellan, Ser Bonifer Hasty (possibly the father of Rhaegar Targaryen). She travels with him to Darry where she hooks up with one of Jaime's squires, Josmyn Peckleton. 

The trip to Darry brings Amerei and Pia together:

Quote

"Ser Harwyn says those tales are lies." Lady Amerei wound a braid around her finger. "He has promised me Lord Beric's head. He's very gallant." She was blushing beneath her tears.

Jaime thought back on the head he'd given to Pia. He could almost hear his little brother chuckle. Whatever became of giving women flowers? Tyrion might have asked. 

Feast, Jaime IV

@Evolett and  @Sandy Clegg recently opened a very interesting line of discussion on flowers and foxes and hearing. I noted that Daario gives Dany some severed heads but also a series of wildflowers. Jaime's reflections on giving a severed head and flowers to Pia seem to fit with those linked motifs. 

It looks as if this could go on and on, with analysis of every reference to Pia. She makes mulled wine for Jaime and his cousin, Daven Lannister, who has been compelled to abandon a Redwyne betrothal and accept an arranged marriage with the Frey family. (Relevant to the fox analysis: Ser Daven wears a fox fur cloak.) I think it's very significant that Jon Snow makes mulled wine for Lord Commander Mormont and Arya makes it for Roose Bolton. Pia's switch from dairy to wine may be significant.

At one point, Jaime dreams of smashing Cersei's teeth the way that Ser Gregor smashed Pia's teeth.

But I want to make this last point in this initial post: Pia is threatened with having her feet cut off if she doesn't act quickly on behalf of Vargo Hoat, who is the castellan at Harrenhal when Arya arrives there. When Bonifer Hasty indicates his desire that she be taken away, he says, "She is a font of corruption," said Ser Bonifer. "I won't have her near my men, flaunting her . . . parts" (Feast, Jaime III). 

Quote

 If the sailors took it in their heads to butcher Pretty Pig, neither he nor Penny could hope to stop them … but Ser Jorah's longsword might give them pause, at least.

Dance, Tyrion IX

They'd let the queen kill Lady, that was horrible enough, but then the Hound found Mycah. Jeyne Poole had told Arya that he'd cut him up in so many pieces that they'd given him back to the butcher in a bag, and at first the poor man had thought it was a pig they'd slaughtered. And no one had raised a voice or drawn a blade or anything, not Harwin who always talked so bold, or Alyn who was going to be a knight, or Jory who was captain of the guard. Not even her father.

Game, Arya II

If Pia and Amerei Frey and Pretty Pig are all linked to Mycah, the butcher's boy who is cut into pieces and mistaken for a slaughtered pig, this could explain why there is a conflict between these characters and Ser Gregor and The Hound: supposedly, The Hound killed Mycah. (Although The Hound won his trial by combat with Ser Beric Dondarrion, so maybe something happened off-stage to Mycah that has not been revealed to the reader.) 

By the way, I noticed that "Dondarrion" contains the word "darri." Just sayin'. 

 

[Springwatch]

The main thing I see in Pia's story is Jaime's continuing process of purification - which right now just irritates me, because he's in a sort of unhappy valley between wicked and good. Still full of himself though.

Suppose Jaime views his squires as small shadows of himself, then the way he guides and moulds Peck becomes revealing. Pia behaves promiscuously and gets a monstrous 'punishment', but after that she can be forgiven and received into a relationship with Peck, who even forgives the loss of her beauty.

Jaime draws the parallel with Cersei himself: 'Last night he dreamed he'd found her fucking Moon Boy. He'd killed the fool and smashed his sister's teeth to splinters with his golden hand, just as Gregor had done to poor Pia.'

Is Pia's outcome what he wants for Cersei? Broken and humble and ready for sex? I think it is. (It's a mean interpretation, but I can't help it.)

[James Steller]

26 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

The main thing I see in Pia's story is Jaime's continuing process of purification - which right now just irritates me, because he's in a sort of unhappy valley between wicked and good. Still full of himself though.

Suppose Jaime views his squires as small shadows of himself, then the way he guides and moulds Peck becomes revealing. Pia behaves promiscuously and gets a monstrous 'punishment', but after that she can be forgiven and received into a relationship with Peck, who even forgives the loss of her beauty.

Jaime draws the parallel with Cersei himself: 'Last night he dreamed he'd found her fucking Moon Boy. He'd killed the fool and smashed his sister's teeth to splinters with his golden hand, just as Gregor had done to poor Pia.'

Is Pia's outcome what he wants for Cersei? Broken and humble and ready for sex? I think it is. (It's a mean interpretation, but I can't help it.)

That seems spot on. Jaime has a long way to go. 

[Sandy Clegg]

3 hours ago, Seams said:

I noted that Daario gives Dany some severed heads but also a series of wildflowers. Jaime's reflections on giving a severed head and flowers to Pia seem to fit with those linked motifs. 

Good read, especially the head/flower catch, @Seams. Pia/Pretty Pig/Ami do seem to have some kind of symbolism connection going on around them. And I would assert that Pate (the Pig Boy) can be read as a symbolic Jon, too. Pigs are a huge theme in these books - I need to gather my notes and see what else I've got.

I'll focus on the 'flower-giver' Daario here, as I've had some thoughts on him to share for a while and this seems like a relevant topic. And Daario also contains 'Darry' by the way ...  

In fact, the name Daario Naharis is kind of a 'bizarro world' version of Daenerys. Take out RIO and HA ... and you get Daanaris. Which is a weird word thing, admittedly. But then, the part we remove (RIO ..HA) sounds like the wine, RIOJA, which is also odd. It would make Daario a symbolic 'Dany filled with wine'. A drunk Dany perhaps? He certainly has a drunkard's swagger:

Quote

Daenerys received the captain on her terrace, seated on a carved stone bench beneath a pear tree. A half-moon floated in the sky above the city, attended by a thousand stars. Daario Naharis entered swaggering. He swaggers even when he is standing still. The captain wore striped pantaloons tucked into high boots of purple leather, a white silk shirt, a vest of golden rings. His trident beard was purple, his flamboyant mustachios gold, his long curls equal parts of both. On one hip he wore a stiletto, on the other a Dothraki arakh.

She meets him in a swirl of divided 'mirror-image symbolism here: the pear tree (pair tree?) and the half-moon. His purple beard is the same colour of the signature Targaryen eye colour that Dany has. And it is split into three, just as she is the 'child of three'. A stiletto on one hip, an arakh on the other. The more 'civilized' weapon contrasted with its more savage counterpart: Dany's inner conflict writ visually.

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Daario Naharis entered swaggering. He swaggers even when he is standing still.

Swaggering, as though drunk. Or swaying like a flower in the breeze perhaps?

Why a flower? Well, in many ways, Daario plays the mirror image role to Dany, just as I've claimed that Val plays the 'gender-swapped' mirror to Jon (in my Where Whores Go post). He and Dany taken together seem to be reenacting the Jonquil and Florian tale, with the gender roles flipped. In this scenario Dany herself would be the fool (he is her foolish crush) and Daario, with his flowery yellow garb, is a manifestation of the yellow/gold jonquil flower itself, otherwise known as Narcissus jonquilla:

https://www.petalrepublic.com/jonquil-flower-meaning/

Daario makes a striking 'Jonquil' indeed (this may explain why George has him dress so outlandishly in yellow). The 'Narcissus' symbolism goes quite well with him and Dany, too. Narcissus fell in love with his own reflection, and in GRRM's own way he has provided Dany with a twisted version of herself with which to be infatuated.

Edited June 26, 2023 by Sandy Clegg

[Gilbert Green]

When looking for clues, I prefer to suspend disbelief, while giving some consideration to the literary consideration that an author will tend to focus on details that are story-relevant.  By this standard:

-- dairy/Darry connection, not relevant IMHO.

-- Brienne connection also not relevant.

-- pig/pia connection not relevant IMHO.

-- Bonifer's reference to her "parts" is not a reference to her feet.  I can't follow you there. 

-- Jaime's Pia-inspired fantasy about smashing Cersei's teeth sounds ominous.  And a golden hand can do that. 

-- Jaime's promise to deliver heads to wronged women sounds ominous.  Fire wights are driven by their oaths.    I expect Jaime to become a fire wight.  I expect the oaths will become twisted and generalized in the process.  Pia has slept with alot of men, and some such women, she may secretly hate them all.  Jaime could end up delivering to her alot of heads.  Or maybe he'll start delivering heads to Cersei, before he finally offs her.  Maybe an idea worth exploring -- though odds are you will not like where I'm taking it.

-- Not relevant that Gatehouse Ami and Pia are both promiscuous IMHO.  Unless, perhaps, they somehow get confused in Jaime's damaged zombie brain.

-- As an aside, agree that Bonifer is probably Rhaegar's dad.

Other comments:

-- GRRM describes himself as a "sex positive feminist"; so I expect he does not disapprove of Pia nearly as much as Bonifer does.  At the same time, I doubt GRRM hates Bonifer for his sniffy attitude quite as much as some fans do.

-- Jaime's advice to his underling that there is no shame in  just using Pia, and then abandoning her, is not good moral advice IMHO.  No idea what GRRM's opinion is -- possibly or even probably he does not agree with me.  Not sure what PIa's opinion is either. 

[Gilbert Green]

The more I think about it, the more it makes sense that Jaime is going to end up anonymously delivering severed heads to Carsel.  Lancel & Kettleback and Moonboy for all I know.  And Lancel did have a dream, as yet unfulfilled, that Jaime would come to kill him.

Doesn't necessarily depend on my fire wight suspicions either.

But it's only a random association, so it could be wrong.  But if it does come to pass, we will all say it was foreshadowed.

[Gilbert Green]

2 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

 He and Dany taken together seem to be reenacting the Jonquil and Florian tale, with the gender roles flipped. In this scenario Dany herself would be the fool (he is her foolish crush) and Daario, with his flowery yellow garb, is a manifestation of the yellow/gold jonquil flower itself, otherwise known as Narcissus jonquilla:

https://www.petalrepublic.com/jonquil-flower-meaning/

Daario makes a striking 'Jonquil' indeed (this may explain why George has him dress so outlandishly in yellow). The 'Narcissus' symbolism goes quite well with him and Dany, too. Narcissus fell in love with his own reflection, and in GRRM's own way he has provided Dany with a twisted version of herself with which to be infatuated.

Daario is no sex-swapped Jonquil.  Not unless Jonquil has had murdered 1000 women and had sex with 1000 men and practices blood magic.  But I agree that Dany is a fool for having anything to do with Daario.

[Springwatch]

43 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

When looking for clues, I prefer to suspend disbelief, while giving some consideration to the literary consideration that an author will tend to focus on details that are story-relevant. [...]

You have a tidy mind, @Gilbert Green !  But face up to it, GRRM's mind is not near so tidy, and he has a lot of time for puzzles. (If you were writing them, the books would much simpler and shorter. And finished.)

43 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

-- Not relevant that Gatehouse Ami and Pia are both promiscuous IMHO.  Unless, perhaps, they somehow get confused in Jaime's damaged zombie brain.

See? It gets interesting when you get past 'not relevant' and start thinking about things. Lancel has even more parallels to Jaime than Peck does. Including abandoning his sinful 'wife' for a life of purity.

 

[White Night]

My understanding is that Pretty Pia's role in the story is not symbolic–at least not chiefly–but is a plot device. This is based on the fact that she has attended the tourney at Harrenhal as a young girl. Here we have a new, somewhat random, character placed at a critical historical event that is shrouded in mystery. The fact that Pretty Pia is still alive reinforces my belief that she has most likely been a witness to a significant scene which she will later reveal. 

 

[Sandy Clegg]

14 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Not unless Jonquil has had murdered 1000 women and had sex with 1000 men and practices blood magic.

It's a symbolic comparison. Not everybody who gets called a "Peter Pan" type person in real life wears green tights and can actually fly. I think you may be missing the point by picking on this one particular detail? 

[Gilbert Green]

10 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

You have a tidy mind, @Gilbert Green !  But face up to it, GRRM's mind is not near so tidy, and he has a lot of time for puzzles. (If you were writing them, the books would much simpler and shorter. And finished.)

See? It gets interesting when you get past 'not relevant' and start thinking about things. Lancel has even more parallels to Jaime than Peck does. Including abandoning his sinful 'wife' for a life of purity.

Of course, there is always the possibility of relevance in ways we cannot expect.

Lancel seems more of a contrast than a parallel.  Lancel repents, and asks Jaime to join him in repentance.  Jaime refuses.

Lancel declines to lay a finger on Ami, because then they would be bound to each other and owe each other.  Whether Ami is a sinner or not would be beside the point.  Peck takes a less honorable (by Lancel's standards) approach, sleeping with Pia, with the intent of abandoning her.

I don't think Lancel ever committed to a "life or purity".  He merely declined to commit to a woman who preferred someone else.  Her lack of purity was not a consideration, as far as we know.  Lancel is a sinner too, and he seems bothered more by his own sins than by those of Amerei.

[Gilbert Green]

14 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

It's a symbolic comparison. Not everybody who gets called a "Peter Pan" type person in real life wears green tights and can actually fly. I think you may be missing the point by picking on this one particular detail? 

It's too fuzzy for me, but knock yourself out.  We have nothing to do during the long wait except to try to read the tea leaves.

[Seams]

7 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

 

Quote

Daario Naharis entered swaggering. He swaggers even when he is standing still.

Swaggering, as though drunk. Or swaying like a flower in the breeze perhaps?

I bet the swaggering is intended to hide the word "egg." Egg wings? Egg wars? If the three heads of Daario represent eggs, Dany may have to "hatch" the three eggs in order to progress in her arc - she does become a dragon rider, finally, shortly after Daario leaves and she marries Hizdahr zo Loraq, so that could be the meaning of an "egg wing" hint. 

The word "swagger" appears 20 times in the books, according to the search website. It does seem as if it might have a bird or flight connection:

Quote

The bravos swaggered about like peacocks, fingering their swords, whilst the mighty dressed in charcoal grey and purple, blues that were almost black and blacks as dark as a moonless night.

Feast, Samwell III

Since peacocks have tails full of eyes, this could tie back in to the discussion of blue flowers and hearing, mentioned earlier.  Daario gives Dany flowers which, we suspect, helps her to improve her hearing. Maybe the swagger helps her open her eyes?

There is a lot about maiming and severing - feet, heads, ears, noses, frostbitten fingers - in the books. People lose eyes in various unexpected ways. This could tie back to the threatened butchering of Pretty Pig and Pia's "parts" and the feet that could be severed by Vargo Hoat.

Because of the egg / Ei / eye connection (Ei is the German word for egg), maybe the attractive swagger of Daario ties into the need for Dany to open a third eye, as Bran undertakes with help from Jojen and Bloodraven. 

Or consider this interesting insight about swaggering:

Quote

Aggo and Jhogo fell in to either side of them, walking with the bowlegged swagger all the horselords affected when forced to dismount and stride the earth like common mortals.

Storm, Daenerys II

So apparently swaggering is something that gods do when they walk on earth. I wonder whether Dany will swagger when she walks, now that she has flown on a dragon? 

[Nevets]

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

You have a tidy mind, @Gilbert Green !  But face up to it, GRRM's mind is not near so tidy, and he has a lot of time for puzzles. (If you were writing them, the books would much simpler and shorter. And finished.)

See? It gets interesting when you get past 'not relevant' and start thinking about things. Lancel has even more parallels to Jaime than Peck does. Including abandoning his sinful 'wife' for a life of purity.

 

@Seams Your comment about sexual violence got me thinking about possible parallels to Pia.   Two that come to mind are Gilly and Jeyne Poole.  All were essentially held prisoner and subjected to sexual abuse.  All were rescued by major characters.  All are in or just left extended relationships.  And while the future is uncertain, things are currently looking up for them.

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.  At this point, Jeyne appears the worst off, but she is also the one most likely to play a substantial role in the story, with close connections to multiple major characters.  Gilly could be somewhat important as a potential distraction for or hostage against Sam, or she might discover something interesting.  Pia's hard to say.  It will be interesting to see what their futures hold.  My guess is that Martin will treat them sympathetically and give them the strength and resilience to move forward and make things happen.  

Edited June 27, 2023 by Nevets

[Springwatch]

11 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Lancel seems more of a contrast than a parallel. 

Really!!? He killed the king and fucked the queen, and if the reader is too asleep to notice that, Jaime spells it out on the page. And then Lancel says he wanted to be Jaime. These are parallels we're meant to notice. 

11 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Lancel repents, and asks Jaime to join him in repentance.  Jaime refuses.

Jaime is already disgusted by his bad reputation; he wants to take his last chance for honour and earn a shining write-up in the White Book. So like Lancel, he abandons his lordship and his sexy partner, and goes questing after true knighthood.

This doesn't mean they're the same character; like I said, he also has parallels with Peck (warcraft prodigy), and even Loras (He's me, and, I'm speaking to myself). Whatever GRRM intends by it - anything from the gardening method to a prophetic universe - these arcs could hint at the alternate paths before Jaime: reuniting with Cersei; abandoning her for true knighthood; destroying himself in the madness of war. Any or all or these.

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Springwatch

[Seams]

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

This doesn't mean they're the same character; like I said, he also has parallels with Peck (warcraft prodigy), and even Loras (He's me, and, I'm speaking to myself). Whatever GRRM intends by it - anything from the gardening method to a prophetic universe - these arcs could hint at the alternate paths before Jaime: reuniting with Cersei; abandoning her for true knighthood; destroying himself in the madness of war. Any or all or these.

I bet you're right. I see Jon Snow looking in faceted mirrors when he is surrounded by Grenn, Pyp, Satin, Leathers, other Night's Watch pals, possibly even Sam. We never really see Jaime surrounded by kings guard members until he returns from Riverrun and Cersei has appointed the new motley crew to the six positions. But Jaime leaves on his Riverlands mission and surrounds himself with his own squires, hostages, fighters such as Strongboar and - plucked from the dark dungeon - Ser Ilyn Payne. These fellow travelers are likely aspects of himself and reflect his evolving personality or world view.

We never hear of Josmyn Peckleton until Jaime departs on this quest. Names that start with J are significant, I think, and possibly linked. Just as Tyrion resisted the idea of riding the pig when it was suggested by Joffrey and, for awhile, by Penny, I think Jaime resisted the idea of sleeping the Pia but eventually came up with a solution by encouraging his squire to lovingly and gently sleep with her.

This reminds me very much of Lady Tanda trying everywhere to find a husband for Lollys but failing in all of her attempts both before and after Lollys is raped. Bronn, a right-hand-man for Tyrion, finally marries Lollys and he says he genuinely likes his wife. 

@Nevets picked up on the motif of sexual violence in parallel characters.  I suspect these victims of sexual violence are all part of GRRM's fertility motif that undergirds the overall plot: If I am reading the clues correctly, he is telling us that the planting of crops in Westeros is an act of sexual violence inflicted upon the earth. I've written elsewhere that Ser Gregor is a "green" character - he and his men inflict irrational, unspeakable violence on Pia. Bronn is a "brown" character - the fertility goddesses may be safe with these brown characters, who represent soil where the planted seeds are quietly nurtured. Perhaps Josmyn Peckledon represents the brown character in Jaime's retinue.

Josmyn's name sounds suspiciously like Osmund Kettleblack, though. Could Josmyn be a black character? I think part of GRRM's earth fertility cycle involves fire - the burning of Wat's Wood in The Sworn Sword, for instance. Maybe Bonifer (bonfire) Hasty represented the fire at Harrenhal, freeing Pia who had never been outside of that castle. Her new friendship with Josmyn could represent the fallow aftermath of the fire and she will soon germinate, in spite of Jaime's observation that she had never been pregnant during her many years of sexual activity. There is fire at Winterfell before Jeyne Poole arrives as the fake Arya. A body (Bannen) is burned at Craster's Keep before the mutiny and rape of Craster's wives, resulting in Gilly's escape.

What is the timeline of the fire at the Tower of the Hand - set by Cersei - and either Lollys giving birth or Jaime freeing Pia? I wonder whether that fire is part of the fertility cycle involving characters touched by Lannisters?

Edit: I stand corrected. I see that Peck (Josmyn Peckledon) emerged from the Blackwater, before Jaime's Riverlands sojourn. I think a Blackwater origin could mean that he is any color, as black absorbs all colors and I have a theory that the battle was a giant "black hole" with light and color passing through to emerge in a new spectrum on the other side. Peck testified that Tyrion dumped wine on the ground after Joffrey's death - this is part of the fertility ritual, as shown in The Sworn Sword when Ser Eustace Osgrey pours wine into the berry patch (bury patch) where his sons were buried. But Peck then becomes one of three squires on Jaime's quest, along with  Garrett Paege and Lewys Piper.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Seams

[Maegor_the_Cool]

Pia

[Frey family reunion]

On 6/26/2023 at 10:45 AM, Seams said:

She works in the buttery at Harrenhal, and that might mean she is linked to House Darry (wordplay on dairy), milk brothers, The Milkwater, Whitewalls (an egg symbol), Lord Butterwell and other elements of the dairy motif. (Cheese alone offers dozens of possible interpretations.)

While GRRM has a passage where someone is sent to the “buttery” to get butter and cheese, a buttery is not a place where butter or dairy is stored.  Or I suppose, it could be stored there, but that’s not technically the purpose.

Buttery is an English term taken from the french word, boterie.  Which in turn is derived the Latin, bota, which means casks.  

It’s basically a storeroom.  Where the barrels are kept.  

Edited June 27, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[Frey family reunion]

As for Pia, it’s an interesting name.  In Latin it means pious.  It also refers to the membrane covering our brains.  Which may account for the number of references to severed heads that seem to accompany Pia.

[Gilbert Green]

8 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Really!!? He killed the king and fucked the queen, and if the reader is too asleep to notice that, Jaime spells it out on the page. And then Lancel says he wanted to be Jaime. These are parallels we're meant to notice.

Not looking for a fight.  But these parallels set up the contrast I mentioned.  And I guess we are supposed to notice the contrast as well.

It is a stretch to say that Lancel is responsible for King Robert's death; or would be if Lancel had not made that very stretch himself.  Lancel is very hard on himself.   But that's part of the contrast.

8 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Jaime is already disgusted by his bad reputation; he wants to take his last chance for honour and earn a shining write-up in the White Book.

Lancel does not seem to have any such concerns.

Jaime has lost Cersei, and is not looking for a new mirror in which to admire himself.

8 hours ago, Springwatch said:

So like Lancel, he abandons his lordship and his sexy partner, and goes questing after true knighthood.

Jaime abandoned his lordship FOR his sexy partner.  Later, and for other reasons, he abandoned his sexy partner too.

No opinion on how sexy Amerei is.  She is a healthy young woman with enormous tracts of land.  I guess that makes her sexy enough.

Lancel's relationship with Amerei is that she is handed to him as a prize of war.  And he simply sets her free.  Which was the honorable, devout and chivalrous thing to do.  He is not really questing after true knighthood (whatever that means).  But he is acting like a true knight.  And directly contrary to the advice and urgings of Jaime.