Randyl Tarly - Magic True Believer?

[Craving Peaches]

I was thinking about when Randyl hired warlocks from Qarth to try and make Sam brave:

Quote

"One time," Sam confided, his voice dropping from a whisper, "two men came to the castle, warlocks from Qarth with white skin and blue lips. They slaughtered a bull aurochs and made me bathe in the hot blood, but it didn't make me brave as they'd promised. I got sick and retched. Father had them scourged."

And it seems quite an odd moment to me. Did he actually think it would work? If he didn't, why go to all the trouble? Presumably it would cost quite a bit to find, hire and transport the Warlocks from Qarth to Westeros. He also has the Warlocks flogged when it doesn't work, which would, at least on the surface, suggest that he blamed them for the 'failure' of the magic, rather than thinking it wasn't real in the first place. On the other hand, this belief in magic seems to conflict with Randyl's 'no nonsense' character.

Does he actually believe in magic? Or was he just that desperate concerning Sam? Would that ritual have worked if Randyl waited until later, when the strength of magic in the world had improved?

[astarkchoice]

I suppose hes close to oldtown thus there would be many different travellers there from all over

 

He may have aimply given them a chance out of desperation ..and flogged them for taking his cash  with 0 results!!! 

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Or was he just that desperate concerning Sam? Would that ritual have worked if Randyl waited until later, when the strength of magic in the world had improved?

Such an interesting question, I've never seen this moment talked about before. In my mind, forcing someone to be "braver" is an impossible feat, even when magic is involved. Was his goal to rid Sam of his fears and anxieties? According to Ned, bravery is only possible when there is first a fear to face and overcome. Even if it takes you several or hundreds of attempts. Each time you face your fear, you are carrying out an act of bravery.

Quote

"Can a man still be brave when he is afraid?" "That is the only time a man can be brave," his father told him.

Was Randyll's goal to "alter" Sam's fears? I feel like they would just about have to suck the life (or soul) out of him in order to accomplish what Randyll really wanted, which was an entirely different version of who Sam really is. Xaro Xhoan Daxos tells Dany that the Warlocks only take from you, and never give anything.

Quote

"Warlocks are bitter creatures who eat dust and drink of shadows. They will give you naught. They have naught to give."

If they had performed their ritual after the increase of magic, I'm afraid poor Sam would have either died or become a shell of his former self. Perhaps like the monster Maester Qyburn created.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Ser Arthurs Dawn

[Nevets]

On 6/30/2023 at 7:02 AM, Craving Peaches said:

I was thinking about when Randyl hired warlocks from Qarth to try and make Sam brave:

And it seems quite an odd moment to me. Did he actually think it would work? If he didn't, why go to all the trouble? Presumably it would cost quite a bit to find, hire and transport the Warlocks from Qarth to Westeros. He also has the Warlocks flogged when it doesn't work, which would, at least on the surface, suggest that he blamed them for the 'failure' of the magic, rather than thinking it wasn't real in the first place. On the other hand, this belief in magic seems to conflict with Randyl's 'no nonsense' character.

Does he actually believe in magic? Or was he just that desperate concerning Sam? Would that ritual have worked if Randyl waited until later, when the strength of magic in the world had improved?

I suspect he got them from Oldtown or some other place relatively close.  I can't imagine getting them from Qarth.  Most likely, they made extravagant promises, in exchange for an equally extravagant sum.  Hence the beating after no results.

It's worth noting that magic is poorly understood in this world, so Tarly may have been willing to give it a shot.  Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

On 6/30/2023 at 8:02 AM, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

Such an interesting question, I've never seen this moment talked about before. In my mind, forcing someone to be "braver" is an impossible feat, even when magic is involved. Was his goal to rid Sam of his fears and anxieties? According to Ned, bravery is only possible when there is first a fear to face and overcome. Even if it takes you several or hundreds of attempts. Each time you face your fear, you are carrying out an act of bravery.

Was Randyll's goal to "alter" Sam's fears? I feel like they would just about have to suck the life (or soul) out of him in order to accomplish what Randyll really wanted, which was an entirely different version of who Sam really is. Xaro Xhoan Daxos tells Dany that the Warlocks only take from you, and never give anything.

If they had performed their ritual after the increase of magic, I'm afraid poor Sam would have either died or become a shell of his former self. Perhaps like the monster Maester Qyburn created.

They don't seem to understand modern concepts of psychology either.  I think his big problem is lack of self-confidence resulting in anxiety, plus lack of physical prowess.  It's worth noting he seems a bit less craven, now that he has survived the First of the First Men, Craster's, and the White Walker.  Plus he has a girl in love with him.  That helps.

He's also somewhat gender non-conforming in that he enjoys activities regarded as feminine, like singing and romantic stories, and doesn't like blood, iirc, which doesn't help.  Lord Tarly may suspect Sam is gay, which I doubt.

We've seen an increase in the effectiveness of magic based on fire, which may have to do with the arrival of dragons.  I don't know about other types of magic, or even what other types there are.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Nevets

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

5 minutes ago, Nevets said:

It's worth noting that magic is poorly understood in this world, so Tarly may have been willing to give it a shot.  Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

He watched The Office and felt inspired by "Michael Scott's quote" 

Quote

They don't seem to understand modern concepts of psychology either.  I think his big problem is lack of self-confidence resulting in anxiety, plus lack of physical prowess.  It's worth noting he seems a bit less craven, now that he has survived the First of the First Men, Crafter's, and the White Walker.  Plus he has a girl in love with him.  That helps.

He's also somewhat gender non-conforming in that he enjoys activities regarded as feminine, like singing and romantic stories, and doesn't like blood, iirc, which doesn't help.  Lord Tarly may suspect Sam is gay, which I doubt.

We've seen an increase in the effectiveness of magic based on fire, which may have to do with the arrival of dragons.  I don't know about other types of magic, or even what other types there are.

I know Sam's character frustrates a lot of people, but the reason I love his POV's so much is because of the slow, steady build of self confidence. His character is a reminder to me that with fear, or even through it, there is an opportunity to grow. I really like the small steps that characters take, whether it be for themselves or for the sake of others. It's more relatable I guess.

My poor, sweet Sam. ♥ He should get a tattoo.

Here's a list of some of the magic within ASoIaF. Someone actually put together a more extensive and detailed list of the in-world magic on reddit. I can't seem to get to it right now though. 

[Nevets]

19 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

He watched The Office and felt inspired by "Michael Scott's quote" 

I know Sam's character frustrates a lot of people, but the reason I love his POV's so much is because of the slow, steady build of self confidence. His character is a reminder to me that with fear, or even through it, there is an opportunity to grow. I really like the small steps that characters take, whether it be for themselves or for the sake of others. It's more relatable I guess.

My poor, sweet Sam. ♥ He should get a tattoo.

Here's a list of some of the magic within ASoIaF. Someone actually put together a more extensive and detailed list of the in-world magic on reddit. I can't seem to get to it right now though. 

Sam reminds me of ... me.  At least, the part about self-confidence and anxiety, lack of physical prowess, and nervousness around women.  Not to mention the intellectual interests and brainpower.  Fortunately, my parents were very nice so that helped, and I'm too skinny, not too fat.  But Sam is definitely the character I identify with most.

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

24 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Sam reminds me of ... me.  At least, the part about self-confidence and anxiety, lack of physical prowess, and nervousness around women.  Not to mention the intellectual interests and brainpower.  Fortunately, my parents were very nice so that helped, and I'm too skinny, not too fat.  But Sam is definitely the character I identify with most.

Who's the Jon Snow to your Sam Tarly?? 

[LongRider]

Randy probably ordered the warlocks late one night when he was drunk, and they had a long persuasive infomercial playing on the glass candle.   Too much Arbor Gold and bad graphics paired with over-the-top promises looked too good to be true.  Plus, they had blue lips!  That means they had to be good, right?  Right?  

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, LongRider said:

Too much Arbor Gold and bad graphics paired with over-the-top promises looked too good to be true.  Plus, they had blue lips!  That means they had to be good, right?  Right?  

To be fair if they looked like this:

File:John Moriarty warlock's servitors.jpg - A Wiki of Ice and Fire (westeros.org)

Rather than this:

File:Victor Manuel Leza MorenoPyatPreeII.png - A Wiki of Ice and Fire (westeros.org)

[LongRider]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

To be fair if they looked like this:

File:John Moriarty warlock's servitors.jpg - A Wiki of Ice and Fire (westeros.org)

Rather than this:

File:Victor Manuel Leza MorenoPyatPreeII.png - A Wiki of Ice and Fire (westeros.org)

For their glass candle appearance, the makeup wizzes did a bang-up job.  The second link is what they really look like, the first link is their appearance on the infomercial.   It's the old buyer beware of blue lipped warlocks after too much Arbor Gold.

[Craving Peaches]

7 minutes ago, LongRider said:

The second link is what they really look like, the first link is their appearance on the infomercial.

Was all ready to give him my lifeforce too...

[James Arryn]

Said it before, brutal as he is Randyll Tarly is probably the most engaged father we see in the books, constantly suffering trouble, expense, embarrassment and wasted time on behalf of developing/securing Sam, then ‘entirely devoted himself’ to raising Dickon after he decides he’s the heir. So it might mean something, but I think it was just more of an example of how desperate he was getting with Sam, and his prioritization of Sam’s development, to the point of trying anything he could think of/hears might work.

Edited June 30, 2023 by James Arryn

[Springwatch]

21 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Does he actually believe in magic? Or was he just that desperate concerning Sam? Would that ritual have worked if Randyl waited until later, when the strength of magic in the world had improved?

He just likes blood - when he was skinning a deer, he went in up to the elbows. He'd probably like bathing in blood himself.

Maybe a long shot, but I think it worked. Sam somehow kept going beyond that hideous rejection from his father, and then being the useless fat guy in a militarised penal colony in the north. It's not the usual sort of courage, but it's something.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Springwatch said:

He just likes blood - when he was skinning a deer, he went in up to the elbows. He'd probably like bathing in blood himself.

Do you think he would have actually followed through with his threat to kill Sam?

[Springwatch]

22 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Do you think he would have actually followed through with his threat to kill Sam?

I do! I hate Randyll; he's crazy.

He's a hypocrite too - he castrates rapers, and then tells Brienne she would benefit from a good raping. He's just vile.

[Jon Fossoway]

Nah. Some parents that have "disfunctional" kids try a lot of stuff on 'em to "make them right". Normal for Randyll Tarly is a strong, martial kid that grows up to be a commander or a warrior, apt enough to wield the ancestral sword of the family. I don't think he was into magic, but running out of ideas. He's got this fat, timid, book loving cowardly kid as his heir and for him the future of the family is not looking good. Tha Tarlys are a marcher bunch, frontier people, honed in battle and always prepared to take up arms. To me, Randyll is one of those black and white characters Martin likes to write up. He doesn't have a hidden side. What you see is what you get.