Unpopular Opinions You Have?

[SaffronLady]

7 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Do we have evidence that they're fucking? 

No.

[Craving Peaches]

I think it is silly that the Andals get far more flack than the First Men for invading Westeros, even though all they did was exactly the same thing the First Men did, except the Andals had a better excuse that they were running from genocide/enslavement at the hands of the Valyrians whereas the First Men invaded just because.

[SaffronLady]

10 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

whereas the First Men invaded just because

Maybe the First Men were also running from another enslaver lost to the Long Night.

[Craving Peaches]

15 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Maybe the First Men were also running from another enslaver lost to the Long Night.

Maybe, but there's no mention of it either way.

[Tradecraft]

ASOIAF isn't a run-of-the-mill fairy tale and, we cannot expect everyone to have a "fairy tale" ending. 

And anything that seems too easy to guess (R+L=J) is probably wrong. It's a trap set for lazy readers. 

Edited July 13, 2023 by Tradecraft

[Tradecraft]

IGNORE the prophecies. These are a huge time sink and trap for the readers. Very difficult, if not impossible for the readers to fully understand. 

The fandom struggles with the very basic mysteries, we do not have the bandwidth to be reading tea-leaves. 

We have to eat our vegetables and focus on the basic mysteries. 

Like everyone seems to ignore the first Mystery presented to us in the books... WTF happened to Lyanna Stark?

 

[SaffronLady]

17 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

the first Mystery presented to us in the books

That is, according to someone else's opinion, "do the Others really exist, or just a trick in Waymar Royce's eye".

[Tradecraft]

Also, Humans didn't defeat the Others. It was a negotiated peace deal. 

Lot o lies in ASOIAF history books, much like our own. 

[Tradecraft]

10 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

That is, according to someone else's opinion, "do the Others really exist, or just a trick in Waymar Royce's eye".

I can't fight every battle. 

I have to preserve my strength. 

Let younger men have at it, ser. 

[Alester Florent]

39 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

Like everyone seems to ignore the first Mystery presented to us in the books... WTF happened to Lyanna Stark?

I don't think anyone ignores that; the majority just believe it has been answered to their satisfaction by the prevailing fan theory, even if that has yet to be confirmed in the books themselves.

[Tradecraft]

3 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

I don't think anyone ignores that; the majority just believe it has been answered to their satisfaction by the prevailing fan theory, even if that has yet to be confirmed in the books themselves.

I agree. 

They have zero details but they say that's fine. R+L=J is enough for them. 

[SaffronLady]

18 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

I can't fight every battle. 

I have to preserve my strength. 

Let younger men have at it, ser. 

Well, it is technically the very first mystery after all, since it's in the very first chapter.

[Alester Florent]

10 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

I agree. 

They have zero details but they say that's fine. R+L=J is enough for them. 

I mean, how much detail do you want?

What we know from the books is:

Lyanna absconded with Rhaegar. It is not clear whether this involved force on Rhaegar's part and really it doesn't change the theory much whether or not it did, although the general view is that it didn't. Rhaegar spent a lot of time hiding out with her while the early stages of Robert's Rebellion kicked off.

What we are given a very clear indication of from the books is:

At some point Lyanna moved or was moved to the Tower of Joy. Eventually Ned caught up with her there and killed the Kingsguard protecting her, at the cost of all but one of his own followers. He spoke to her before she died, in bed, and she made him swear a promise. Ned then brought her remains back to Winterfell.

The remainder is dot-joining:

Lyanna was pregnant with Rhaegar's child, and died as a result of the childbirth (either in childbirth or shortly thereafter). She made Ned promise to keep the child safe, and Ned did so by presenting the child as his own bastard.

 

Now I mean we may not know what Lyanna had for breakfast on the day she died or exactly where she was at every conceivable point of the period between her disappearance and rediscovery, but I think the above is sufficiently detailed to be a satisfactory answer to the question "what happened to Lyanna Stark?" It may not be correct (although for various reasons I and I think most fans believe it is) but that doesn't mean that the mystery is being ignored: most people just think it's been solved and have moved on to other things. The hardcore who are holding out for a different or additional explanation continue to debate it, as in the Lemongate threads.

[Tradecraft]

30 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

I mean, how much detail do you want?

What we know from the books is:

Lyanna absconded with Rhaegar. It is not clear whether this involved force on Rhaegar's part and really it doesn't change the theory much whether or not it did, although the general view is that it didn't. Rhaegar spent a lot of time hiding out with her while the early stages of Robert's Rebellion kicked off.

What we are given a very clear indication of from the books is:

At some point Lyanna moved or was moved to the Tower of Joy. Eventually Ned caught up with her there and killed the Kingsguard protecting her, at the cost of all but one of his own followers. He spoke to her before she died, in bed, and she made him swear a promise. Ned then brought her remains back to Winterfell.

The remainder is dot-joining:

Lyanna was pregnant with Rhaegar's child, and died as a result of the childbirth (either in childbirth or shortly thereafter). She made Ned promise to keep the child safe, and Ned did so by presenting the child as his own bastard.

 

Now I mean we may not know what Lyanna had for breakfast on the day she died or exactly where she was at every conceivable point of the period between her disappearance and rediscovery, but I think the above is sufficiently detailed to be a satisfactory answer to the question "what happened to Lyanna Stark?" It may not be correct (although for various reasons I and I think most fans believe it is) but that doesn't mean that the mystery is being ignored: most people just think it's been solved and have moved on to other things. The hardcore who are holding out for a different or additional explanation continue to debate it, as in the Lemongate threads.

We know Lyanna disappeared. We don't know if she was kidnapped or not. 

People think it was Rhaegar but people mistake identities all the time in ASOIAF (The hound's helmet, Renly's Armor at Blackwater). So I have doubts.

You think Lyanna was at the Tower of Joy, but you're using a fever dream GRRM specifically told us not to trust. 

 

[The Wolves]

Jon has no reason to be upset with Rhaegar and Lyanna. His anger should be directed rightfully at Ned. 

[Craving Peaches]

10 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

His anger should be directed rightfully at Ned. 

Why should he be angry at Ned? I'm curious to hear your reasoning.

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

Why should he be angry at Ned? I'm curious to hear your reasoning.

Presumably, at some point, Jon will learn the truth of his parentage.  I think it's quite possible that he will be angry at Ned for a variety of reasons:-

1. Never telling him who his mother was, or even if she was alive or dead.

2. Being unwilling to make any provision for his sister's son.

3. Steering him in the direction of the Wall, where violent death was the most likely outcome for him.  It is no thanks to Ned that Jon survived (if he survived?)

4. Treating him as a threat to the children that Sansa was intended to bear Joffrey.  A threat that would be neutralised at the Wall.

5.  Treating him as a bastard, which Jon has numerous hang-ups about, and which certainly poisoned his relations with Catelyn. 

6. (Possibly) Preferring Robert's claim, and Robert's childrens' claim, to his own.

[Corvo the Crow]

On 7/13/2023 at 4:54 PM, SaffronLady said:

That is, according to someone else's opinion, "do the Others really exist, or just a trick in Waymar Royce's eye".

Also, do wights exist? Jon supposedly killed one and someone else another and then there was the Fist of the First Men but how do we know if it's not something like Danse Manique, the Watch's food rations going bad and they were all seeing hallucinations, killing their friends because they thought them to be wights because of all the fairy tales they have been exposed to as children? 

[frenin]

30 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Presumably, at some point, Jon will learn the truth of his parentage.  I think it's quite possible that he will be angry at Ned for a variety of reasons:-

1. Never telling him who his mother was, or even if she was alive or dead.

2. Being unwilling to make any provision for his sister's son.

3. Steering him in the direction of the Wall, where violent death was the most likely outcome for him.  It is no thanks to Ned that Jon survived (if he survived?)

4. Treating him as a threat to the children that Sansa was intended to bear Joffrey.  A threat that would be neutralised at the Wall.

5.  Treating him as a bastard, which Jon has numerous hang-ups about, and which certainly poisoned his relations with Catelyn. 

6. (Possibly) Preferring Robert's claim, and Robert's childrens' claim, to his own.

Jon will have each and every reason to be angry at every adult that played fast and loose with his future.

But plenty of readers who ought to know better than Ned seem to share that dislike and it's completely irrational, especially 2, 4 and 5.

Like I'm sorry but aren't fans aware that Ned had just overthrowed the Targaryens? Why did he owe Jon or Lyanna to throw what remained of his House to an impossible war against someone Ned was closer with than his own brothers?

 

Another unpopular opinion is... Ned would have solved a lot of problems within his family if he had thrown Jon to what's his name vassals and limited contact with him and his family. No wolves tho.

[Craving Peaches]

15 minutes ago, SeanF said:

1. Never telling him who his mother was, or even if she was alive or dead.

Surely Jon would realise that Ned had a either a good reason for not doing so, or that he was planning to do it when he was older (as I think Ned himself might think about?).

17 minutes ago, SeanF said:

2. Being unwilling to make any provision for his sister's son.

Jon chose to go to the Wall though. Ned might have had other plans, does he not muse about setting Jon/Bran up with their own Holdfast?

17 minutes ago, SeanF said:

3. Steering him in the direction of the Wall, where violent death was the most likely outcome for him.  It is no thanks to Ned that Jon survived (if he survived?)

Possible, but again Jon did chose to got there even though Benjen tried to warn him. I really don't think Ned would actually allow Catelyn to kick Jon out of Winterfell if Jon hadn't already wanted to go to the Wall.

19 minutes ago, SeanF said:

4. Treating him as a threat to the children that Sansa was intended to bear Joffrey.  A threat that would be neutralised at the Wall.

Where does Ned treat him as a threat?

19 minutes ago, SeanF said:

5.  Treating him as a bastard, which Jon has numerous hang-ups about, and which certainly poisoned his relations with Catelyn. 

Jon is treated as less of a bastard than the vast majority of bastards (noble and otherwise) in the series though. Jon is/was in a very favourable position compared to Ramsay (before Domeric's death), Falia Flowers, quite a lot of the Frey Bastards, Robert's bastards excluding Edric, and probably Donnel Hill.

26 minutes ago, SeanF said:

6. (Possibly) Preferring Robert's claim, and Robert's childrens' claim, to his own.

So Jon will be angry at Ned because he didn't start another round of war?